PO transition frames

banannigans

banannigans

[09] Warrior
you can figure this out based on the frame data that has been posted already, but I made a spreadsheet to show what Natsu's frame +/- is when transitioning to PO from attacks on both block and hit. Additionally, it shows each PO option and its effective startup frames:

http://tinyurl.com/76mhz9t

I haven't figured out the TJ and TC frames for the moves, but when I do I'll update the spreadsheet with them.
 
With 4A+B6 PO, PO K being uninterruptable (but still -21 punishable) this might be a good transition for PO mixups.

Everything else on block just seems terrible.. and I don't think Natsu really needs a PO game.

Edit: Sigh, i14 mids beat out PO K. Not worth it.
-ASZ
 
Hmm, I may have to wait until Taxi tests all the frame data to see how accurate the info in the guide is. I made this at work so I'll be able to spot test it later tonight for any other inconsistencies.
 
which i14 mids have you been trying? if it's natsu's WS K the frames tend to fluctuate. technically, PO K should be i13 after 4A+B (with the -3 on block) so it should beat i14 moves.
 
@TaXi: From my experience, natsu's WS K traded with PO K after 4A+B6 PO on block. This was pretty consistent from what I've tested.

if Pyrrha blocks 4A+B6 PO, stab beats out PO K. that's why I withdrew my comment about 4A+B6 PO, PO K being uninterruptable on block.

-ASZ
 
that's depressing. did you manage to try hover options? i didn't think about it until wombat raised it in another thread.
 
I can confirm a blocked 4A+B6 -> PO K trades with Natsu's WS K. Some other things I'm seeing after 4A+B6 -> PO:

PO K trades with Natsu FC B. This is listed as i15.
PO K loses to Pyrrha 236B as ASZ said.

however..
natsu 2A is -6 on block. Immediately followed by WS K, that should technically trade with an i21 move. However, if you set up training mode to Natsu vs Natsu, you will see that a blocked 2A into WS K will trade with Natsu's standing A+B which is an i20 move, suggesting WS K is i14 again.

I think the most likely scenario is that WS K is i14 and PO K is i11; seems to make everything fit. I'll keep testing but that's my best guess so far.

Edit: WS K being i14 and PO K being i11 still doesn't resolve the situation with Pyrrha's 236B. This should've been obvious :/ hmm.... more investigating to do.
 
In other news, I think I'm narrowing in on the frame that PO 8's TJ frames starts. I'm thinking it's at 13 give or take a frame. Here are my test cases:

Test case 1(on block)
P1 Natsu: 4A+B6 -> PO 8
P2 Natsu: FC B

FC B is an i15 mid and 4A+B6 leaves P1 Natsu at -3. This means the TJ frames can not start at i12.

Test case 2(on hit)
P1 Natsu: 4A -> PO 8
P2 Natsu: B

B is another i15 mid and 4A leaves P1 Natsu at -2. P1 Natsu completely avoids P2's B attack on frame 13.

Test case 3(on hit)

P1 Natsu: 4A -> PO 8
P2 Natsu: 3KK/4B


So here is where it gets weird. 3KK and 4B are both i14 mid moves, but PO 8 still avoids them. Don't know what's going on.


Test case 3(on hit)

P1 Natsu: 4A -> PO 8
P2 Natsu: KKK

KKK hits Natsu out of PO 8. K is i13 and a high.

Anyway, let me know if you guys are seeing the same thing.
 
the simplest explanation i have for this phenomenon is that the hitbox for B is just higher than that of 3KK, 4B and other typical mid moves. as it stands, pyrrha's BB is one of the best interrupts after 6A+B PO on block.
 
k just did some testing; after 4A+B PO on block hover/fake hover loses to taki's WS K, pyrrha's 236B and WS B, as well as generic 2As. that makes it a pretty bad option if you just wanna go into hover mixups. however, i did find that doing 8B+G after 4A+B PO on block avoids pretty much EVERYTHING.

in any case, my current understanding of natsu's PO options is that they serve to make her key moves safer, rather than create any mixups.
 
wombat: the recovery on a whiffed PO 8B+G is massive.

an analysis of 66B on block:

- going into PO makes taki do a huge backstep, far enough to make counterattacks like AA, BB, 2A, etc whiff. pyrrha's 236B will whiff most of the time, but i've had it hit once or twice (iffy hitbox?). PO K serves to move natsu backwards slightly more, and to take her out of PO.

- hover/fake hover keep natsu in place after her humongous PO backstep, which means that the aforementioned counterattacks still whiff. HOWEVER, the opponent typically is able to guard in time before hover B hits. unfortunately hover A whiffs too much (the backstep is too huge) for there to be an actual mixups. i will say, though, that pyrrha's 236B moves forward enough to make the mixup valid.

what you really want to do is fake hover PO B, which will definitely hit on block and give you +9 into whatever. don't try to do fake hover PO B+K as a mixup; natsu has an enlarged hurtbox during the move that allows moves like pyrrha's BB that would normally whiff to hit her instead. also PO B+K tends to whiff (HUGE backstep).

- moves with good range like pyrrha's 3A or a delayed 66B, will hit natsu out of hover/fake hover and PO K. but please keep in mind that you can block them if you simply don't go into PO.

- there is only ONE move i know of that beat all these options: natsu's 6A+B. the i16 speed, combined with the double hit, mean that natsu gets hit out of everything in PO, and gets punished as well (66B is -16). please let me know if you find other such moves.

but even then, 6A+B can be evaded by PO 8B+G if you really want to. i would hesitate on using it as a primary evasion tool though, because while it actually evades counterattacks like AA and BB pretty well, it leaves natsu directly behind the opponent with a massive recovery from the whiffed stalker throw... essentially guaranteeing a back throw for the opponent.

that's a rough idea of how PO works with 66B. i'll leave 6A+B PO to someone else instead, or i'll do it over the weekend.
 
I am observing the same thing as you Taxi, that a blocked 4A+B6 -> PO 8 pretty much loses to 2A and BB(edit: meant to say quick WS moves) which makes it pretty bad. I think that basically relegates PO 8 as an option to use after:

  • 4A on hit - PO 8 at least avoids some mids and slower A attacks. I'm surprised how many moves 4A on hit -> PO 8 avoids vs 4A+B6 on block -> PO 8 as they're only a frame apart at -2 vs -3. May want to check that -2.
  • 6A+B4 on hit - puts you at such a huge advantage though that I'm not sure if PO 8 is a very good option. PO B beats any move slower than i11 and I think 6A+B4 on hit lets you combo into PO A:6. I guess if they freeze up and don't react to HOV then you might get a mixup off it with HOV B and HOV A.
That's pretty interesting that PO 8B+G evades that many moves though. I'll add it as a column to figure out how quickly it evades.
 
TaXi did u try PO A/A:6 ? i am getting some strangely good results from it in various counterattacks after 66B4.
Also fake hover is so random that i cant get when u get the invisibility, some times moves like 3C whiff and some times not ^_^;
 
guttinboy said:
I am observing the same thing as you Taxi, that a blocked 4A+B6 -> PO 8 pretty much loses to 2A and BB which makes it pretty bad. I think that basically relegates PO 8 as an option to use after:

  • 4A on hit - PO 8 at least avoids some mids and slower A attacks. I'm surprised how many moves 4A on hit -> PO 8 avoids vs 4A+B6 on block -> PO 8 as they're only a frame apart at -2 vs -3. May want to check that -2.
  • 6A+B4 on hit - puts you at such a huge advantage though that I'm not sure if PO 8 is a very good option. PO B beats any move slower than i11 and I think 6A+B4 on hit lets you combo into PO A:6. I guess if they freeze up and don't react to HOV then you might get a mixup off it with HOV B and HOV A.
Click to expand...

yes i need to check 4A, but my suspicion is that it's going to turn out to be like 4A+B PO on block.

and you are absolutely right about 6A+B PO on hit; if you're not getting that guaranteed PO A:6 then you should at least be gunning for PO B. personal opinion: from my experience, all opponents get used to hover at some point.

ghost333 said:
TaXi did u try PO A/A:6 ? i am getting some strangely good results from it in various counterattacks after 66B4.
Also fake hover is so random that i cant get when u get the invisibility, some times moves like 3C whiff and some times not ^_^;
Click to expand...

i haven't tested it out but PO A/A:6 should work as well.

as for hover, it just has very specific evasion frames that fluctuate because each PO string/move is different from each other (and then you have to consider if it's on hit or on block).

btw if everyone is assuming that i have some sort of frame data machine, i don't. it's just testing stuff based on trade/clash and existing frame data.
 
Noob question; I'm trying to test some 6A+B4 stuff, but when I set the training dummy's 1st movement to stand, all guard, she still only guards the 1st hit and not the second. How do I get her to block both hits? The second movement is a playback of OPyrrha's stab.
 
UnseenWombat said:
Noob question; I'm trying to test some 6A+B4 stuff, but when I set the training dummy's 1st movement to stand, all guard, she still only guards the 1st hit and not the second. How do I get her to block both hits? The second movement is a playback of OPyrrha's stab.
Click to expand...
with heroic spacing and patience you can cause the first hit to whiff and the second to connect.
 
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