Raphael Frame Data Discussion

Do you mean G(8)?

And thanks again. Although I'm surprised that the naked jump is slower, you can actually deal more damage from the naked jump, against most lows, I think. Just attack after the naked jump and you can probably deal more damage than the damage from a common jump attack.

Anyways, I'm glad it is like this. I thought I'd had to modify my habit of using jump attacks, but now I know they're good, cause they're fast. I thought the only disadvantage from the naked jumps was that they required more nerve. Knowing they're slower decreases the weight on my conscience for not using a naked jump + attacks.

Does it make sense?
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #62
Lol yes G8. TJing at i10 means you cannot react to lows with that and use it in anticipation (like B+K). TJing at i3 means you can react to moves like mitsu's 1A possibly.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #65
Good job heater. Can barely do jGs myself.

Good way to truly verify prep entry frames vs how fast the move is from prep.

I know there are some instances where you get the auto-SE before you can actually input a move (to prevent you from getting CH).
 
Hmm...I didn't even think of Prep 2. I went with Prep B for testing the frames for stance entrances, since that's the fastest "move" he has from there. I can't seem to get the AI to activate his auto-evade with the record function, which effectively makes accurate testing nearly impossible. I'll see if I can't find a workaround, but my frames on JG for Prep entrances might be a bit off.

Also, am I the only one who didn't know you can lengthen the amount of time Raphael spends in Shadow Evade by holding 2?
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #67
I even wrote it down in the general notation Q&A that SE can be extended by holding 2! Anyways the "True" prep entrance is basically the point where you can execute a move but wont get CH'd from it.

And yes, the AI does not seem to activate auto SE which is VERY pecuiliar.
 
It's more or less done, save for a few moves. If anyone wants to give them a try on their own, here's some notes I did before I got sleepy.

WR A: -11, -10?
BT 2A: less than -12
6Bb(BE): -27 or -28
6B(B): need to test
3(B): need to test
236B: at least -31
6K: at least -19, no more than -21
FC K: -14 (tested) -15 or -16
WR K: less than -12
BT 2K: -14 (tested) -15 or -16

The trouble with testing moves that leave Raphael in FC is that you can't punish with a high. It's an annoyance, but I'll figure it out eventually. I also figured out a way to test things involving Prep's auto-evade, but it's stupidly complicated and not going to be fun to actually do.

Adieu, gentlemen.
 
Heaton said:
Good news. Finished up everything but the actual frame data part for Raphael's SC2 Command List, put up a skeleton of Raphael's SC3 Command List which has most of his moves and stance, and am currently testing the Just Guard data. Should have that up in the morning at the latest.

EDIT: Just saved the page as to not lose my work. Go take a look if you're interested.
Click to expand...
I just looked at SC2 data. Raph's overall damage was quite higher, wasn't it ? Especially regarding his pokes.

Nice job, by the way.
 
So many stances, so many options and so many mids. Oh Raphael what happened to you?
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #71
Black_Dog said:
I just looked at SC2 data. Raph's overall damage was quite higher, wasn't it ? Especially regarding his pokes.

Nice job, by the way.
Click to expand...

Different game though. 29 damage AA. 35 damage BB. 2A for 15 damage. 3B for 28 damage. 1A for 20 damage (11A in SC2, lol). 6BB for 31 damage. 22B for 32 damage (33B command in SC2). 33B for 29 damage (22B in SC2, only 1 less damage, odd). 22A for 26 damage (4A command in SC2). 236B for 54 damage. And yet out of all nice properties to inherit we get shitty 66A+BG. Before you all wish for SC2, remember that all the other cast members had insane basic damage too, especially in comparison to raph.

Combos strings are longer in SC5, but basic pokes are still the same and Raph seems to be lacking in this area. However, I would have preferred Raphael take the poke-centric approach (to be different from other characters) with pokes similar to SC2 damage. Oh well, gotta look forward but it doesn't hurt to look back to see where you came from.

Btw the only thing missing from the SC2 is the "hop" evade frames which you could do a A(B)~prepiii. I think the other choices are the same
 
I agree there was no need for 5-6 attacks for every stance but there was also no need to remove all the stances. Retreat step, advance step and one envelopment to the side are not too much nor too complex. IMO Prep was desigend with all this evade stances in mind. They simply removed them and now Prep seems too flawed. Raphael was always low but it was never so frustrating to play with him. And don't foget step G is no more. Anyway lets move this to the general discussion before the mods get angry ;)

Forgot to say. Nice work Heaton
 
It's no problem at all.

Using a fairly stupid work-around, I was able to find a way to test Prep's auto-evade against Natsu 4a+bA, which is i8 from a buffer. Essentially, even on Just Guard you can auto-evade every high in the game if you don't do anything, except in the case of 66(B) which loses all of his advantage when Just Guarded and is -19. When 66(B) is just guarded, you can only auto-evade anything i12 or slower. Of course, this assumes that the opponent uses a high to punish you, which can be useful against people who have good high punishers - Ezio 6b(BE) for example.

In essence, if my thinking is correct, the entrance into Shadow Evade is i6, and Shadow Evade itself starts TC at frame 1.

Also, something odd. Set the following scenario up:

Raphael: 66(B) ~ Prep 4 ~ Prep 2 ~ SE B
Pyrrha Ω: Just Guard Raphael 66(B) ~ 4AA

Prep 4 TC's the first hit of her 4A, even though that move doesn't have TC frames to my knowledge. Either it does and I'm being silly - probably not as I've tried to TC dozens of moves with dozens of different setups using Prep 4 - or the game "gives" Prep 4 the TC frames from Prep 2's auto-evade, as you can't actually do anything else in this setup; if you try to do Prep A, Prep B, Prep K, Prep Whatever, the game ignores your input and automatically auto-evades for you. Quite interesting.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #74
So you basically only have access to auto-SE or prep4 before the game expands your choice of inputs to include prepA, B, K or A+B.

You get a way easier way of seeing this by setting omega pyrrha to do 66B into 22B.
And having raph attempt 3(B) after blocking omega pyrrha's 66B. What you'll see is you can either SE automatically or do a prep4 which has TC frames as the sword goes right through raph's head. Its pretty much what you described as the auto-evade portion of prep can lead to SE, but for some reason prep4 command overrides it while effectively granting raph TC as well.
 
WuHT said:
So you basically only have access to auto-SE or prep4 before the game expands your choice of inputs to include prepA, B, K or A+B.
Click to expand...

Basically yes.

Assuming that I'm right and the Shadow Evade entrance is i6 and TCs on frame 1, then what's happening is that you only have time to do either SE or Prep 4. Because your next fastest move is Prep BB at i12, and the game automatically Shadow Evades if it detects a high at effectively i7, your only other option to supersede it would be to use Prep 4, which is probably the same speed or faster. You can't do Prep A or Prep K because you've already input your move, even though you physically didn't input anything, the game did with the auto-evade.

That's assuming I'm right.

EDIT: I think I'm right about Shadow Evade. I think auto-evade is something else altogether now.

Doing 66(B) ~ auto-evade VS 2P Raphael that Just Guards the 66(B) and tries to 6BB has Raphael immediately enter Shadow Evade and I evade it.

Doing 66(B) ~ Prep 2 VS 2P Raphael that Just Guards the 66(B) has tries to 66B has 1P Raphael stay in Preparation a little longer - the added time in Preparation means that 6BB looks like it's going through his torso, and he should be hit for all intents and purposes, but he's somehow TCing and enters Shadow Evade without any problems.

My hypothesis is that auto-evade works by detecting that A) Raphael is not inputting anything while in Preparation, and B) the opponent has used a high, and then TCing at the exact moment of impact.

Conversely, manual Shadow Evade (Prep 2) works by TCing the moment I press the button. I still need to wait until I'm in Shadow Evade to do SE A, SE B, etc; but from the moment I press Prep 2, even if I'm still in the recovery state of a move I have TC frames.
 
236B apparently has TC frames. Or rather, a TC frame. It seems to Tech Crouch exactly on i20. Not exactly the most helpful Tech Crouch frames to have, being on the same frame as its impact, but it allows you to evade some slow strings without trading with them. The problem is that I can't reproduce it in the lab, and 236B seems to trade with a lot of other i20 highs on neutral. So why do I say it has Tech Crouch frames?

Doing 236B to interrupt Astaroth 4KA+G*B+G will get you crouch thrown. The frames are there, and I've personally tech crouched things with it before - I just can't figure out a way to test it well.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #79
Frames: Can anyone confirm (and if it was the same in pre1.03)

Is BB now -2 on hit (instead of +2) on hit ?

prepBB is actually i11 instead of i12 ? My previous assumption of them being the same speed as the normal versions may be wrong. That is assumed that prepAB is i15 though.
Anyways 3(B)~prepBB will trade with natsu's AA if the 3(B) is blocked.
 
WuHT said:
Frames: Can anyone confirm (and if it was the same in pre1.03)

Is BB now -2 on hit (instead of +2) on hit ?

prepBB is actually i11 instead of i12 ? My previous assumption of them being the same speed as the normal versions may be wrong. That is assumed that prepAB is i15 though.
Anyways 3(B)~prepBB will trade with natsu's AA if the 3(B) is blocked.
Click to expand...

Trades on an AA hm? I guess the Prep transition is even slower than expected.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back