Raphael Matchup

LAU

[09] Warrior
Here's some preliminary tests.... keep in mind this is NOT a complete research... there are holes.... but it's a starting point.


NM's game play should be focused on tip range 22AA and 88B simply because.... at tip range 22AA raphael can't punish it... .. his only punish is 3B if he's close enough... if the move is done far... it'll either whiff or you'll be able to block it

88B on block is -16 force crouch as long as you're not point blank next to raphael... i don't see a move that can punish it.

these two moves by themselves will really mess up raphael's game..... be patient... move in slowly... make sure you don't whiff... because his game is about spacing and poking..... he's looking for that whiff punish.....

fortunately for NM since NM's range in general is longer than Raph this will make it a bit harder for Raph.

some other moves to look for during the match up....

A+B - beats out pretty much all raph's moves outside of stance other than 236B and 66B... both of those moves are long range moves for raph... if you're playing at raph's 'ideal' range where he pokes like no tomorrow.... A+B will eat all pokes.... including his 22B, 3B, 6BB etc... obviously raph still got his lows... however.... NM having WS B will remind him that he's one of those characters with a very strong low block punisher.

B+K - in certain situation this will avoid a lot of his pokes/mixups... and this will lead you into NSS which isn't that bad of an option.

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stance game...

more to come soon...


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anti prep/SE game

in general... the moves you're looking into are.

88B - beats out a lot of his options other than Prep K and SE A

B+K or back step, B+K - will more or less beat out any other options that 88B doesn't beat out..... the back step might not be necessary depending on range and his options.. for some cases like 3(B) (blocked) -> prep K this can't be back stepped but B+K will work to beat it.

A+B - might not be a bad idea here either... i think aside from Prep K and MAYBE prep A+B (gotta test again...) it beats other options if you manage to block a move that goes into prep... if they do SE A (the fastest SE move) they can still manage to block the revenge in time...

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more to come later...

but so far.. i feel... the risk/reward is in favor for NM....

-LAU
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
LAU you used brackets so it bolded your whole post after 3(B) prettymuch. posting a link in the matchup reference
 
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Tiamat

[11] Champion
Honestly, Nightmare shouldn't have much trouble with this now that the patch has come out and Raphael is garbage on fire horrible. -_-
 

LAU

[09] Warrior
how do you deal with his pressure? i can't seem to duck or interupt his fast BBB strings.
first BBB is m,m,m

but i guess you're referring to 3(B), prep BB which is a natural combo....

3(B) is mid... prep BB is h,h

you gotta know a bit of raph when he gets into stance transitions.

his MOST common way to go into stance is 3(B).... on hit like i mentioned before gives prep BB for free...
on BLOCK it's still somewhat deadly i believe it's like +1 on block and prep B is like i11.... or something along those lines.. long story short... you can NOT interupt him with regular moves.... you need TC moves... but once you start doing TC moves he can start doing prep K which is a mid.. and on CH in this patch it does some serious damage.... can link to CE i've heard....

however prep K on block is punishable... the block punish is bigger for prep K in this patch so not exactly sure what it is.

Moves that go into prep

3(B) - vertical long range i16 mid that basically pokes you
4(B) - a relatively slow high move but got very good TC properties.. and will be used to go against your stance moves.. however it's slower than it looks and is also a high and is also a vertical... if that doesn't ring any bells for you..... you're hopeless with NM

66(B) ... slow Guard Break move... but for the range it covers it's decent....

6B(B)... i12, HH his main poke tool....
prep B(B) ... more or less same as above but from prep stance.. so he can do this move 'infinitely' until you know how to duck it... or step it... to keep things simple.... you can NOT step this move if you're hit before ... (might not be 100% true but it's something good to remember until you have much better knowledge)

44A(B)... m,m horizontal mid starter to prep... however the frames on it isn't as good compare to his other options

6A(B)... close range step killer into prep...

prep A(B)... similar to above but from prep.


once you understand those moves go into his prep stance.. that's when you know when to start attacking... in general if you're hit... you should either.. do some fast TC moves... or moves that back you up... or a+b.... or you block his prep K... that's a mid... and punish after...

if you're trying to attack him with non-TC when he just hit you before.. you're gonna get raped.

-LAU
 

ZER0

[13] Hero
Honestly I could do with a bit more info on this MU , as much as I try, it feels as if sometimes theres just nothing I can do, when I supposedly have the advantage either on block or hit Raph just beats me to just about everyrthing
 

JTK

[09] Warrior
Ok. I am not saying LAU is wrong here, but I tested his Raphael prep game data and I found it to be inconclusive. I am providing detailed information on Raphael's Preparation game and I would like someone to test the data to confirm it if at all possible.

The simple fact is, Raphael's prep game is a mixup. You'll have to pay attention to what he does and watch for patterns in order to succeed. A Raphael player will benefit more than a Nightmare player will from this data.

Firstly, let me get a few things out of the way. I have discovered last night that I am a noob at SCV and with most of this data I have here, I was able to perform with my terrible reaction speed.

- Forget about B+K and A+B. He was right about 88B, it's a good move to use.
- PREP K punishments are short range dependent. It won't work unless Raphael is within grabbing range.
- PREP AB punishments are mid-long range dependent. It won't work unless Raphael is beyond grabbing range.
- 88B is for the left side only. On the right side it would be 22B.
- When I say fastest input required, it means you must enter the information right when you gain control of your character or you will fail.
- When I say fast timing required, it means that my personal reaction time was too slow to see it coming.
- 66B PREP BB I do not have an answer for. Please find one if you can. I don't know Nightmare very well.
- PREP K data also works with PREP K BE.
- Shadow Evade by itself will still get hit with 9K.

3B PREP combos:

3B PREP AB - Block 3B, punish with 88B (Mid-Long range dependent)
3B PREP BB - Block 3B, punish with 88B
3B PREP BBB - Block 3B and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
3B PREP K - Block 3B, punish with 88B (Short range dependent. Fastest input required)
3B PREP A+B - Block 3B, punish with 88B

3B SE combos:

3B SE B - Block 3B, punish with 9K
3B SE K - Block 3B, punish with 9K
3B SE A - Block 3B, punish with 9K (Fast timing required)

6BB PREP combos:

6BB PREP AB - Block 6BB, punish with 88B (Mid-long range dependent)
6BB PREP BB - Block 6BB, punish with 88B
6BB PREP BBB - Block 6BB and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
6BB PREP K - Block 6BB, punish with 88B (Short range dependent. Fastest input required)
6BB PREP A+B - Block 6BB, punish with 88B

6BB SE combos:

6BB SE B - Block 66B, punish with 9k
6BB SE K - Block 66B, punish with 9k
6BB SE A - Block 66B, punish with 9k (Fast timing required)

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All 66B combos are slow enough to be stopped by GI combo or JG combo punishes. You also have enough time to dodge it and counter. My personal favorite is 3(B)~Ba, but I don't know NM that well.

If you don't have the timing down for GI or JG, refer to these.

66B PREP combos:

66B PREP AB - Block 66B, punish with 88B (mid-long range dependent)
66B PREP BB - No definitive answer yet. Block for now.
66B PREP BBB - Block 66B and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
66B PREP K - Block 66B, punish with 8BB (Short range dependent, Fastest input required)
66B PREP A+B - Block 66B, punish with 88B

66B SE combos:

66B SE B - Block 66B, punish with 9K
66B SE K - Block 66B, punish with 9K
66B SE A - Block 66B, punish with 9K (Fast timing required)

Here is the scoop. The whole list simplified.

- As LAU said earlier, in most cases 88B will punish a prep game. PREP K is going to be the mix-up at long range.
- In most cases, 9K will stop a shadow evade move. It will miss SE K at long range, and SE B will hit at long range.
- If SE A hits you, there is virtually no way they can follow up with an attack that can't be blocked or sidestepped.

If I have missed something, please let me know. If you test the data and it doesn't work for you, also let me know.
 

ZER0

[13] Hero
just to fix a couple things, because you and did go over some of this stuff earlier in the week :]
3B PREP combos:

3B PREP AB -
  • Block 3B, punish with 88B (Mid-Long range dependent)
  • Block 3B, Duck and punish with iFC 3B
  • 66K will TC under this and interrupt
3B PREP BB -
  • Block 3B, punish with 88B
  • Block 3B, duck and punish iFC 3B
  • 66K will TC under this and interrupt
3B PREP BBB -
  • Block 3B and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
  • iFC 3B and 66k should eliminate this altogether, however the last hit can be punished with 6A
3B PREP K -
  • Block 3B, punish with 88B (Short range dependent. Fastest input required)
  • step to your right to evade, quick step for some reason gets hit by this, however you can punish this with 6A
  • if you are quick enough 66K will beat this out, however this may lead to trading depending on range.
3B PREP A+B -
  • Block 3B, punish with 88B
  • Block PREP A+B and punish with FC 3B

3B SE combos:
The moment you see PREP 4 or SE, 9k should be the first thing that comes to mind

3B SE B - Block 3B, punish with 9K
3B SE K - Block 3B, punish with 9K
3B SE A - Block 3B, punish with 9K (Fast timing required)

6BB PREP combos:

(see 3B ~ PREP)

6BB PREP AB - Block 6BB, punish with 88B (Mid-long range dependent)
6BB PREP BB - Block 6BB, punish with 88B
6BB PREP BBB - Block 6BB and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
6BB PREP K - Block 6BB, punish with 88B (Short range dependent. Fastest input required)
6BB PREP A+B - Block 6BB, punish with 88B

6BB SE combos:

(See 3B ~ SE)

6BB SE B - Block 66B, punish with 9k
6BB SE K - Block 66B, punish with 9k
6BB SE A - Block 66B, punish with 9k (Fast timing required)

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All 66B combos are slow enough to be stopped by GI combo or JG combo punishes. You also have enough time to dodge it and counter. My personal favorite is 3(B)~Ba, but I don't know NM that well.

If you don't have the timing down for GI or JG, refer to these.

66B PREP combos:
(see 3B PREP)

66B PREP AB - Block 66B, punish with 88B (mid-long range dependent)
66B PREP BB -
  • 66K should TC under this
  • duck and punish with iFC 3B

66B PREP BBB - Block 66B and BB, punish with 88B (Fastest input required)
66B PREP K - Block 66B, punish with 8BB (Short range dependent, Fastest input required)
66B PREP A+B - Block 66B, punish with 88B

66B SE combos:
(see 3B SE)

66B SE B - Block 66B, punish with 9K
66B SE K - Block 66B, punish with 9K
66B SE A - Block 66B, punish with 9K (Fast timing required)