Reverse Edge needs a nerf

tresto

[09] Warrior
It doesn't matter that it's easy to bait, the problem is that it forces you to footsies ignoring frame advantage.
It turns the gameplay into a boring street fighter neutral fest where everyone is afraid to press more than 1 button even on advantage, for fear of getting reversal edged.

If I have +2 advantage it's like I don't have anything. I can't condition my opponent with plus frames except when i'm +5 or more LOL.

If he makes a mistake, I can't start my pressure because I have to bait his RE , which is RETARDED as a principle. By making a mistake the opponent forces ME to guess or bait, which is imbecilic.

The issue here is not that the mechanic is gamebreaking or overpowered. The issue is that it turns the game into a turn based crap where everyone is baiting everyone for fear of RE.
THAT!!! Like, fuck it! Luckily my last matches lately didn't have too much RE. But that shit sucks.
 
It doesn't matter that it's easy to bait, the problem is that it forces you to footsies ignoring frame advantage.
It turns the gameplay into a boring street fighter neutral fest where everyone is afraid to press more than 1 button even on advantage, for fear of getting reversal edged.

If I have +2 advantage it's like I don't have anything. I can't condition my opponent with plus frames except when i'm +5 or more LOL.

If he makes a mistake, I can't start my pressure because I have to bait his RE , which is RETARDED as a principle. By making a mistake the opponent forces ME to guess or bait, which is imbecilic.

The issue here is not that the mechanic is gamebreaking or overpowered. The issue is that it turns the game into a turn based crap where everyone is baiting everyone for fear of RE.


That +2 is still a +2. Learn which moves you can throw out then step after to avoid an RE. You can throw the move out, react to if you got RE'd, then do whatever. You can also use guard breaks to get through REs.

RE is not a big deal if you learn to handle it accordingly. That goes for pretty much any fighter mechanic.
 

SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
I just said you CAN'T step if you poke and it also becomes unblockable.
Do i really need to make a video? It happens so much there's no way anyone who's actively playing the game didn't notice.
I've just also said it's not a big deal in terms of overpowered, but it makes the gameplay a bullshit bait fest.
 

MONEYMUFFINS

[13] Hero
THAT ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON THE OPPONENT CHOOSING TO SPAM REVERSAL EDGE. PEOPLE LIKE THAT FORCE THE MATCH TO BE ANNOYINGLY PREDICTABLE, BUT THE SAME CAN BE SAID FOR ANY EFFECTIVE TACTIC THAT PEOPLE FORCEFULLY USE.
 

FleshMasher

[13] Hero
I just said you CAN'T step if you poke and it also becomes unblockable.
You are just wrong, there are pokes that allow you to step after they get REd.

Examples:
Taki's 44A, KK, 1KK, 4K, 44K.
Not to mention almost all of her PO transitions allow PO Sidestep.
And there are pokes with slower recovery, that don't allow step, but you can still block the RE attack.
Even if it's charged, you can block it, just doesn't avoid the rock paper scissors game then though.

Tested vs Nightmare's uncharged RE attack, as i've read somewhere his is the fastest RE attack, i. e. smallest window to step or block it.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
After all the mentioned pokes Nightmare's RE attack is steppable to Nightmares left.
Nightmares RE attack tracks to his right.

I assume every character has pokes like that.
 
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SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
Yes you can block it, my problem is that it still goes in the guess game, that's what I was trying to say by "unblockable". I meant the guessing game still triggers on block, which mainly makes it sort of unblockable.

If I block it , no bullshit guessing please, it doesn't make any sense. As I said in my previous post, you can hear the BA electricity sound in the guard, no damage is done, but still i have to GUESS after reading something RIGHT and blocking, which is retarded.

My problem is not that i can't step it in some cases, it's that in the cases where I can't step it but I guard it, it starts the stupid minigame guess. That's the main issue that is the most annoying one and makes the game no fun.

Then sure, there are pokes that are ultra fast and you can poke and get away before the animation even starts, but that is character and range specific. There are several ranges when you could punish or start your pressure game, but not with that poke -> you lose, you basically are out of options and you must give up your turn for fear of RE and go in neutral. This is the other big point of the problem that I'm trying to say.

First, remove the transition in the GUESS game on "block" forever. If the RE is a punish and it gives me damage, sure, start the game. If I block it NEVER go in the guess game, EVER.

Then, remove meter gain. Completely. If one really needs meter gain, move it to when you GI an attack, because that requires actual timing and reward, not pressing 1 button.

Then it will be fine.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Then, remove meter gain. Completely. If one really needs meter gain, move it to when you GI an attack, because that requires actual timing and reward, not pressing 1 button.

Then it will be fine.
Absolutely no.
It would even make it worse.
GI system is already dumbed down enough and its as problematic as RE.
They'd need to revert GI back to what they used to be since now they are AS spammable AS RE.

They need to get rid of braindead panic buttons to get the game back on track.
 

TopazHacker

The Unknown Soul
Reversal Edges are the continous Guard Impact with a RPS system, it was made to punish predictable attacks and has SEVERAL disadvantages:
- On most characters (Zasalamel, I am looking at you), it is abysmally slow to execute and it is easily avoidable
- If hit, it increases the probability of a Guard Crush by a bit, if miss, it increases that probability by a fuck ton.
- It is not a greak counter-attack most of the time, as it uses a Rock Paper Scissor system.
- If avoided, won, or simply "noped", it is heavily punishable.
So, no, I do not find a nerf that necessary.
 

TopazHacker

The Unknown Soul
Absolutely no.
It would even make it worse.
GI system is already dumbed down enough and its as problematic as RE.
They'd need to revert GI back to what they used to be since now they are AS spammable AS RE.

They need to get rid of braindead panic buttons to get the game back on track.

I mean RE is supposed to be spammed, GI is not. GI has become WAY easier than SC2/SC3 GI. I agree, and I do think that is a horrendous idea, since GI has more of a punish-the-victim value than RE does.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Reversal Edges are the continous Guard Impact with a RPS system, it was made to punish predictable attacks and has SEVERAL disadvantages:
- On most characters (Zasalamel, I am looking at you), it is abysmally slow to execute and it is easily avoidable
- If hit, it increases the probability of a Guard Crush by a bit, if miss, it increases that probability by a fuck ton.
- It is not a greak counter-attack most of the time, as it uses a Rock Paper Scissor system.
- If avoided, won, or simply "noped", it is heavily punishable.
So, no, I do not find a nerf that necessary.

An almost universal defense at frame 4 with a window of SECONDS is NOT easy to avoid.
And RE was meant to reach 2 goals:
1) stop extreme aggressive characters… (failed miserably and achieved the opposite).
2) dumb down the game to avoid competition with tekken, and this was enforced also by GI, SC and CEs, unfortunately they werent tested properly and the mechanics together resulted into a huge mess whereas you are pushed to spam RE to gain meter to spam CE and SC.
 
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PSA: Darkfender has been complaining in the same manner since SC4. Best take every post he makes with as much salt as you can.

@SwingShot - I see what you're saying. You don't like the fact that RE starts the mini game even if you recover in time to block after the parry. What we're saying to find the strings you can step after so you don't have to block. It takes just a few minutes in training mode to find whatever moves your character has that works vs RE. Idk what character you play, but some characters even have special attacks they can use to evade the RE release after being parried, like voldo A+K.

RE is easy to bait and and just as easy to react to properly. Just takes a small amount of work. I can help you out with finding an answer. Which character do you play?
 

FleshMasher

[13] Hero
@DeathInMyEyes Do all RE attacks track better to the right?
It's the same for Taki and Nightmare.
Also how does Zasalamel's work?
Is it a 2 hit RE attack and harder to step?
 
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darkfender

[10] Knight
RE starts up on frame 6 and goes to frame 50 when fully held. This is not “SECONDS.”

If it connect it lasts seconds.
also 8wayrun tests said frame 4 REs and 2 GI maybe it was changed recently but i didn't read anything about it

Not to mention that even if the first window was 50 frames, it would be nough for basically ALL moves but few unblockables.
Wich would your point be?

PSA: Darkfender has been complaining in the same manner since SC4. Best take every post he makes with as much salt as you can.
Nope since they made scV raphael trash tier and broken with 22G patch (1.02) .
Didn t i had legitimate reasons to complain when they break your main Whole moveset but 1 move (2a)?
And people like you defended the system anyway that later resulted into being an unintended bug (corrected in 1.03)…. but was fair and square for you.

If you can disprove what i say go on, if you cannot don't whiteknight every time….
 
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Slade

[14] Master
If it connect it lasts seconds.
also 8wayrun tests said frame 4 REs and 2 GI maybe it was changed recently but i didn't read anything about it
Not sure which tests you're referring to. I tested it myself here showing that it's not active F1, 2, 3, or 4. I don't think I have a scenario for F5. The F6-30/F6-50 figure I believe comes from Suirad's testing, and he does good work.
Not to mention that even if the first window was 50 frames, it would be nough for basically ALL moves but few unblockables.
Wich would your point be?
whispers That also means it's big enough for basically all break attacks.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Not sure which tests you're referring to. I tested it myself here showing that it's not active F1, 2, 3, or 4. I don't think I have a scenario for F5. The F6-30/F6-50 figure I believe comes from Suirad's testing, and he does good work.

whispers That also means it's big enough for basically all break attacks.
this argument again?
Already discussed...
 
If you can disprove what i say go on, if you cannot don't whiteknight every time….

tl;dr

i'd rather put you on ignore

@DeathInMyEyes Do all RE attacks track better to the right?
It's the same for Taki and Nightmare.
Also how does Zasalamel's work?
Is it a 2 hit RE attack and harder to step?

Nah, as far as I can tell, every RE is different. Its a toss up which direction they track, if at all. The second hit of Zas' RE for instance tracks to his left iirc, but its actually one of the slowest to come out, which means it can be interrupted before it makes contact.