SCV Siegfried Spacing Tips Please?

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Elternteil

[08] Mercenary
I enjoy playing Siegfried in SCV, but I have a problem with him - I find it hard to get away when enemies get close, which is really fatal with characters like Natsu who will shave your health away.

I know you gotta keep your distance with Sieg of course, but there are situations when it can't be helped. His attacks are slower than the close range characters, and his stances don't really make enough space to put me in a safe spot - heck I get hit be a number of vertical attacks even when I do 2B+K!

So I ask - When opponents get too close, what tips do you have that will help our bro Sieg get away?
 
2_8B+K has never been a very big step, so there are a number of moves that will out track it. It most cases a normal step into 3B or 22_88 BB are better choices.

6A, 6K, aga, 3A, any throw, 4B+K into anything (though particularly kick), backstep, and B:6 can help you to build range. The majority of those moves do it via knockdown, but 6B is more useful as a tick. Most of these moves are fast and on his list of less punishable stuff. If you can prove that you can knock your opponent down if he gets sloppy with his offense, eventually they'll slow down and get out of your grill.
 
In my opinion, spacing and getting your opponent to play at my pace are the critical keys when playing Siegfried. I am too struggling at pushing opponents away. Here are the tools I have been using so far:

- 6K (Dodge high attacks)
- 6A (Fast with ring out possibility)
- agA or iagA (kind of hard to pull off sometimes..)
- 1K
- 4A (follow with K B)
- 4B
- 4KK (the opponent has to be close for the first hit)
- 66K (or 66kA+B+K)

I hope somebody can give some more good tips on keeping opponents away.
 
22/88B+K aren't really close range evades. They're built more for evading pokes at mid-range or so. The side movement is too weak for them to dodge close-range attacks (oh how I miss SC2 Nightmare).

Basically defending with Sieg is kind of a reverse mixup (you have to make educated guesses about your opponent's offensive tendencies, which are best learned by just blocking when in doubt), and it's harder than ever in this game because there's so many REALLY fast characters in this game. But here are some moves that, used properly, can be GTFO moves:

Fast GTFO moves:

K - Fastest move from neutral (i13). Weak to step and crouch/tech crouch. Minor advantage on hit. Follow this move up with other fast interrupts if your attack will win. 66K can be good here.

66K - Decently fast (i15) and really good tech crouch window. Knocks down on counter hit (easy to counter hit due to relatively fast speed and tech crouch, especially after a successful K or AA hit). Can lead to Brave Edge combo if you know it will hit.

1K/FC K - Fastest low (i15), but disadvantage on hit (-2, doesn't really save you from some characters like Alpha Pat) and really bad on block (-14 and you're in FC, which means if you don't get punished, you're going back to blocking), Use to train baiting opponents to focus on their ankles while waiting on Sieg's attack, or train them to try and bait a WS B or K (if you have the lifebar to gamble a bit playing that guessing game).

3K - Fast mid kick at i15. Can string to 3KKB for mid,low,mid and knockdown. Admittedly, I kinda sleep on this move. Short range, but favorable frame data. The kick on its own is -10 on block (but spaces out safely) and +4 on hit. The two last hits in the string are both unsafe on block (-19 and -16), but the sweep will catch step and the headbutt will combo from the sweep. The string seems good to try for if they've been attempting to punish 3K blocked standalone.

6A - Fast step killer (i15). Knocks down on run counter. Safe on hit. Weak to crouch and tech crouch. Strong right-side ring-out capability. Try to avoid guessing with this move and use on reaction to opponent's step.

agA - Another fast step killer (i17). Better knockdown on hit than 6A and advantageous on block. Just like 6A, vulnerable to crouch and tech crouch. A bit easier to use from slightly farther away than 6A (which is easier to use at smell-their-breath range due to the simpler input). Again, try to use reactively rather than predictively (unless your opponent is very predictable).

Throws - At i17, slightly faster than Sieg's AA. Tracks opponent's step, but extremely vulnerable to crouch/tech crouch. Use sparingly against opponents who step too much while baiting you. If they break, you're back to neutral. Poor oki to regain the offensive from, but good breathing room, and the A+G throw can ring out forward if the opponent's all the way at the edge.

b6 - Mid and very good range for the speed (i16). -10 on block, much safer if spaced for max range. +0 on hit. Vulnerable to step due to its linear nature. Good for checking people about to come at you head-on.

4A - i18, same as Sieg's AA speed. Stuns on normal hit, and leads to SRSH mixup from 4[A] transition. High and unsafe on block. Use sparingly, and you may as well go for the stance every time IMO due to the risk involved. 4[A] -> SRSH K is a good tech trap if you succeed with 4[A].

WS K - Tied with FC K for fastest option from force crouch, full crouch, or while-standing state (i14). +2 on hit, unsafe on block at -14. Vulnerable to step. Use CAREFULLY to interrupt an opponent pushing from disadvantaged force-crouch moves, as well as from Sieg's disadvantageous-on-hit low moves (2A, 1K).

SSH K - Sieg's fastest move (i10), but must come from SSH stance. Difficult to get safely into stance during close-range defense; 4B+K steps back generously, but the kick is high and can whiff if fired too early from stance, and SC5 Sieg's other SSH attacks suck for defense. Really more of an aggressive frame-trap/wall-splat tool than defensive tool IMO.

Preventative defensive moves:

22_88A - Not a GTFO move for in-your-face defense (i30 and requires step, way too slow for opponents already inside), but a good move like b6 to check people coming in at max range. Hits mid (really good because many opponents expect Sieg's horizontals to go high or low), comes from quick step, kills opponent's step, knocks down, only -9 on block. One of his best spacing moves. (Oh, and it tech crouches! Thanks to Spidey for the tip.)

3A/3aA - Same rules apply to these two as to 22_88A. Not for use on an opponent already in your face (slow at i19 and unsafe at -14), but good to check people coming in if you aim for maximum range. Can combo 2A+B almost anywhere, or 3B if you're both close to the wall or edge.

Most important rule of Sieg defense:

When in doubt, JUST BLOCK.

Guard crushes are bad, but they're made even worse if you sacrificed a lot of life attacking or doing other risky actions when you shouldn't have. Stay cool and observe your opponent's tendencies before you commit to any escape attempts. And if you guess wrong once, stay calm, get up as safely as possible, and go back to blocking. Don't turn one mistake into a slippery slope out of panic.

Sieg is not a speed demon, or super-deceptive, or a touch-of-death character, but a solid defense will give people pause, and when they hesitate, that's your cue to run it back, slowly and steadily.

EDIT: Was wrong about the throw speed. Thanks to ICE for the correction. I don't know a lot about GENERAL (non-character-specific) frame data in this game yet.
 
benreed, thanks for them good advices!

I just thought of a move I forgot to mention, jumping A, it's actually not too slow, and it has left-side ring out capability, I think.

Oh, and don't forget about crouch B+G throw, I can't count how many time I ring out my opponent with this move! One thing I love about Siegfried is that he can ring out his opponent in all situations: standing, crouching and all directions!
 
Also 3K is a quick mid. 15 frames and +4 on hit. If you interupt w/ this you can then backdash and regain some space, or fish for CH if you feel like they aren't respecting your space.

- I.C.E.

P.S. Also, throws are i17. benreed was confusing it with the throw break window which is 13.
 
33A
6A
agA
WR K
6k
K
B6

Primarily the best spacing tools are getting pressure off of Siegfried

6B also works as spacing you away from them,
2A also awkwardly stops momentum since its a pretty sneaky low,
 
When I first looked at 22_88A I didn't think much of it. But when I actually played, that move saved my ass so many times. TC, mid step-killing horizontal, -9 on block with safe spacing, comes from step and controls a huge arc in front of Sieg? Yes PLEASE.
 
AND super fast (i22 +10 that is the stupid step) for a move with that kind of range ;P
22/88A es #1!! huehuehuehuehuehue
 
Lol I noticed 22_88A for the first time today and it looked so unassuming I immediately suspected it to be good. Will test for sure.

The A1 APat in quick battles is great for practicing anti rush down imo!
 
A1/Legendary Souls CPU Alpha Pat made my blocking so much better it wasn't even funny. (Not that there's much funny in the first place about fighting A1 CPU Alpha Pat with Sieg. DAMN YOU, Edge Master.)
 
22/88B+K aren't really close range evades. They're built more for evading pokes at mid-range or so. The side movement is too weak for them to dodge close-range attacks (oh how I miss SC2 Nightmare).

Basically defending with Sieg is kind of a reverse mixup (you have to make educated guesses about your opponent's offensive tendencies, which are best learned by just blocking when in doubt), and it's harder than ever in this game because there's so many REALLY fast characters in this game. But here are some moves that, used properly, can be GTFO moves:



K - Fastest move from neutral (i13). Weak to step and crouch/tech crouch. Minor advantage on hit. Follow this move up with other fast interrupts if your attack will win. 66K can be good here.

66K - Decently fast (i15) and really good tech crouch window. Knocks down on counter hit (easy to counter hit due to relatively fast speed and tech crouch, especially after a successful K or AA hit). Can lead to Brave Edge combo if you know it will hit.

1K/FC K - Fastest low (i15), but disadvantage on hit (-2, doesn't really save you from some characters like Alpha Pat) and really bad on block (-14 and you're in FC, which means if you don't get punished, you're going back to blocking), Use to train baiting opponents to focus on their ankles while waiting on Sieg's attack, or train them to try and bait a WS B or K (if you have the lifebar to gamble a bit playing that guessing game).

3K - Fast mid kick at i15. Can string to 3KKB for mid,low,mid and knockdown. Admittedly, I kinda sleep on this move. Short range, but favorable frame data. The kick on its own is -10 on block (but spaces out safely) and +4 on hit. The two last hits in the string are both unsafe on block (-19 and -16), but the sweep will catch step and the headbutt will combo from the sweep. The string seems good to try for if they've been attempting to punish 3K blocked standalone.

6A - Fast step killer (i15). Knocks down on run counter. Safe on hit. Weak to crouch and tech crouch. Strong right-side ring-out capability. Try to avoid guessing with this move and use on reaction to opponent's step.

agA - Another fast step killer (i17). Better knockdown on hit than 6A and advantageous on block. Just like 6A, vulnerable to crouch and tech crouch. A bit easier to use from slightly farther away than 6A (which is easier to use at smell-their-breath range due to the simpler input). Again, try to use reactively rather than predictively (unless your opponent is very predictable).

Throws - At i17, slightly faster than Sieg's AA. Tracks opponent's step, but extremely vulnerable to crouch/tech crouch. Use sparingly against opponents who step too much while baiting you. If they break, you're back to neutral. Poor oki to regain the offensive from, but good breathing room, and the A+G throw can ring out forward if the opponent's all the way at the edge.

b6 - Mid and very good range for the speed (i16). -10 on block, much safer if spaced for max range. +0 on hit. Vulnerable to step due to its linear nature. Good for checking people about to come at you head-on.

4A - i18, same as Sieg's AA speed. Stuns on normal hit, and leads to SRSH mixup from 4[A] transition. High and unsafe on block. Use sparingly, and you may as well go for the stance every time IMO due to the risk involved. 4[A] -> SRSH K is a good tech trap if you succeed with 4[A].

WS K - Tied with FC K for fastest option from force crouch, full crouch, or while-standing state (i14). +2 on hit, unsafe on block at -14. Vulnerable to step. Use CAREFULLY to interrupt an opponent pushing from disadvantaged force-crouch moves, as well as from Sieg's disadvantageous-on-hit low moves (2A, 1K).

SSH K - Sieg's fastest move (i10), but must come from SSH stance. Difficult to get safely into stance during close-range defense; 4B+K steps back generously, but the kick is high and can whiff if fired too early from stance, and SC5 Sieg's other SSH attacks suck for defense. Really more of an aggressive frame-trap/wall-splat tool than defensive tool IMO.



22_88A - Not a GTFO move for in-your-face defense (i30 and requires step, way too slow for opponents already inside), but a good move like b6 to check people coming in at max range. Hits mid (really good because many opponents expect Sieg's horizontals to go high or low), comes from quick step, kills opponent's step, knocks down, only -9 on block. One of his best spacing moves. (Oh, and it tech crouches! Thanks to Spidey for the tip.)

3A/3aA - Same rules apply to these two as to 22_88A. Not for use on an opponent already in your face (slow at i19 and unsafe at -14), but good to check people coming in if you aim for maximum range. Can combo 2A+B almost anywhere, or 3B if you're both close to the wall or edge.



When in doubt, JUST BLOCK.

Guard crushes are bad, but they're made even worse if you sacrificed a lot of life attacking or doing other risky actions when you shouldn't have. Stay cool and observe your opponent's tendencies before you commit to any escape attempts. And if you guess wrong once, stay calm, get up as safely as possible, and go back to blocking. Don't turn one mistake into a slippery slope out of panic.

Sieg is not a speed demon, or super-deceptive, or a touch-of-death character, but a solid defense will give people pause, and when they hesitate, that's your cue to run it back, slowly and steadily.

EDIT: Was wrong about the throw speed. Thanks to ICE for the correction. I don't know a lot about GENERAL (non-character-specific) frame data in this game yet.
bro what is WS and SSH? o.o im new to all of this hehe...
 
bro what is WS and SSH? o.o im new to all of this hehe...

WS or WR = While Standing/While Rising. It means doing a move while standing up from a crouch.

SSH = Stance Side Hold, which is a stance specific to Siegfried. You enter that stance by pressing 4B+K.

Welcome to 8-Way Run.
 
Once i landed a hit i normally use some of siegs long ranged low's to further slow opponents down. 1A A or 2A+B has worked out pretty fine for me, usually your enemy will stop to blindly attack you after standing up. The 2A+B transitions into SBH which you can follow with a low hitting SBH A and once your opponent is able to see that move coming, you can switch to either SBH B or SBH K. Creates a nice little mind game.
 
Once i landed a hit i normally use some of siegs long ranged low's to further slow opponents down. 1A A or 2A+B has worked out pretty fine for me, usually your enemy will stop to blindly attack you after standing up. The 2A+B transitions into SBH which you can follow with a low hitting SBH A and once your opponent is able to see that move coming, you can switch to either SBH B or SBH K. Creates a nice little mind game.

Yeah but I notice SBH A kinda leaves you open. As it doesn't knockdown your opponent.

Also I notice a few more things that irritate me with Siegfried:
1> A huge chunk of his sword always goes through the opponent, especially when backfaced (though using SBH B here will actually save your life as it will use the full length of the sword).
2> When Sieg swings his sword, he takes a step forward during the swing which almost always puts him in range of enemies with shorter range. Makes me wonder how far back I should distance myself before I swing my sword.
3> How the hell do you GI with 5A+B anyway?

On the other hand, I found doing 2A+G on wakeup actually effective on enemies who love charging in after knocking you down.
 
I have met some extremely good Siegfried players on line, and I am not trying to call Siegfried as a low tier, but I feel Siegfried in SCV is really missing a move that is fast enough to punish a blocked combo or interrupt his opponent at close range. Against a fast character like Pyrrha Ω, Siegfried can ONLY block her combos then try to make his opponents guess his mix up... (What was I doing wrong? I couldn't punish Pyrrha Ω after I blocked her combos, are there safe combos? and it seems my 6A whiffs all the time...)

My strategy with Siegfried in the past was to make my opponent haste and play at my pace so I can take advantage of my high damage with mix ups. Now with Siegfried in SCV, he doesn't hit hard enough for the opponents to haste to interrupt Siegfried mix up, and he has no breathing room in close range.

Well, I am still sticking with Siegfried since I have been playing him since SC2, but I hope someone can enlighten me on the strategy to play Siegfried in SCV (perhaps in particular against Pyrrha Ω).
 
Yes Siegfried at close range against fast characters seems to be a sitting duck. Last night, I managed to hold my ground against a Leixia who just spams me up close with that high kick-splitkick thing (I still lost in the end though). The only way I could really win with Sieg is by setting the pace very early on and striking fear, but it's really hard to make a comeback when I'm seemingly overpowered by spams. What usually happens is that in the midst of the spam, I'm hoping either my 4A or 2A+G connects.

But you know the other problem I'm having with Sieg? For some reason, none of my first strikes at the beginning of the round is faster than what everybody else can throw at me (especially 66A where I'm pretty much asking to be hit first), so I am forced to just step back at the start.
 
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