Siegfried Frame Data Discussion

I had it i16 originally, cause i got some results where it clashed with other i16 moves but i couldnt get jagA to clash with those using the very same setup so then i said fuck it lets put i17. Im seriously out of energy atm to test more about that ;s
 
Yea, I only judged the speed of 66K from what I saw from my capture card, a lot of these results I haven't retested manually yet outside of manually testing hit and block data (and even then, I was working within the restrictions of the data I actually knew about), so its no suprise that there's mistakes.

Not to mention you also have to be very cautious vs range values, JMP A almost gave me some screwy results because of its range values.

But this is just a rough measurement, so mistakes are to be expected.

Also, I'll retest iagA for you just to be sure. I know the very 1st time I tested, I got i15. While that seemed fairly obvious like a screw up once I retested it, its possible that I could have screwed up there as well.

Also spidey I'm redoing all the FD so that we have a second reference for each other to compare with. If something is different, we know to retest until its all the same, ^-^

Anyways lunch breaks over, so I gtg back to work lol
 
C_3 said:
Ok... So just to clarify:

press and release A
quickly press and hold G
release G and press A+B, A+K or A+B+K?
Click to expand...

well thats one way, but if u dont wanna accidently activate your bind, do it like this:

press A
slide your finger or rock your thumb to G
hold G and press A+B, A+K, or A+B+K.

or at least this is the way i've been doing it. its been very successful, but you might be different.
 
Ok so i did a big update for the data.
Looks much more complete.

Had a theory that SCH K could be i10 but i dont even remember what was it that i was testing >< Rest time :P

@onlywingedangel, you mean on block ;P
 
Spidey said:
Ok so i did a big update for the data.
Looks much more complete.

Had a theory that SCH K could be i10 but i dont even remember what was it that i was testing >< Rest time :P

@onlywingedangel, you mean on block ;P
Click to expand...

Woops, you're right I was a little too hype for my own good.
 
A more finalized update: will include TC frames, KND/STN advantage, and notes on a later date

Siegfried Frame Data

Horizontal Attacks:

A: i18, -6, 4, 4
{A}: i18, 0, 10, 10
AA: i18, -8, 4, 4
AAB: i18, -14, KND, KND
AA{B}: i18, 2, KND, KND
agA: i16, 2-5, KND, KND
ag{A}: i16, -6-8, KND, KND
iagA: i17, 2-5, KND, KND
iag{A}: i17, -6-8, KND, KND
2A: i19, -14, -4, -4
3A: i19, -14, KND, KND
3aA: i26-30, -14, KND, KND
6A: i15, -13, 2, KND
6{A}: i15, -7, +8, KND
4A: i18, -14, STN, STN
4{A}: i18, -4, STN, STN
1A: i28, -17,-5, -5
1AA: i28, -16, KND, KND
WR A: i17, -21, -12, -12
WR {A}: i17, -1, 9, 9
WR AA: i17, -21, KND, KND
WR Aa2: i17, -23, -12???
FC A: i19, -14, -4, -4

Vertical Attacks:

B: i24, -8, -2, 2
{B}: i24, 0, 6, 9
BB: i24, -15, -3, -3
BBA: i24, -16, KND KND
BB{A}: i24, 10, KND, KND
BBK: i24, -2, KND, KND
2B: i23, -8, 2, 2
2{B}: i23, 0, 9, 9
1B: i24, -16, KND/STN(0, 0)
B6: i16, -10, 0, 0
6B: i25, -18, KND, KND
4B: i16, -12, 4, STN
b4: i34-i50, +10, KND, KND *i34 at close range only
3B: i18, -20, LNC, SLNC
3{B}: i18, 0, LNC, SLNC
WR B: i16, -21, LNC, SLNC
WR {B}: i16, 0, LNC, SLNC
FC B: i22, -8, 2, 2
FC {B}: i22, -2, 5, 5
236B: i66, UB(JG-50???), KND, KND

Kicks:

K: i13, -8, 2, 2
2K: i21, -18, -6, -6
2KK:i21, N/A, -8
2KKK:i21, -16, ?, ?
2KKKK: i21, N/A, ?, ?
2KKKKK: i21, N/A, ?, ?
3K: i15, -10, 4, 4
3KK: i15, -19, KND, KND
3KKB: i15, -16, KND, KND
4K: i15, -12, 0, 0
4KK: i15, -14, 2, 2
1K: i15, -14, -2, -2
6K: i19,-6, 4, KND
WR K: i14, -14, 2, 2
FC K: i14, -14, -2, -2

Simultaneous press moves:

A+B: i18, 4, 2, 2
A+BA: i18, -14, -3, -3
2A+B: i30, -16, KND, KND *clashes with i29s and i30s.
2{A+B}: i30, -2, KND, KND *clashes with i29s and i30s

8-way run moves:

66A: i33, 11, KND, KND - aGI: i6-i15
44A: i31, 2-5, STN, STN
44{A}: i31, -7-9, STN, STN
22_88A: i32, -9, KND, KND
11_77A: i42, 2-5, STN, STN
11_77{A}: i42, -7-9, STN, STN

66B: i34, -22, kd, kd
44B: i38, -18, kd, kd
44BB: i38, -19, kd, kd
44{B} i38, 6, kd, kd
44B{B}: i38, -11, kd, kd
44bG: i70?, N/A, ST, ST
22_88B: i36, -14, KND, KND
22_88BB: i36, -18, KND, KND
22_88Bb4: i36, -5, KND, KND
11_77B: i32, -23, -9, STN
11_77{B}: i32, -5, 10, STN

66K: i15, -10, 6, KND
33_99K: i25, -10, 6, KND
44K: i34, -17, KND, KND
22_88K: i32, -7, 2, 4
22_88KA: i32, -8, 2, 2
22_88KAA: i32, -8, 5, 5
22_88KAAB: i32, -19, KND, KND
22_88KA2A: i32, -7, 3, KND
22_88KA2AA: i32, -19, KND, KND
22_88K{A}: i32, -1, 10, 10
22_88KA{A}: i32, 2, 14, 14
22_88KK: i32, -15, -1, KND
22_88kA: i26, -9, 10, 10
22_88kAA: i26, -8, 4, 4
22_88kAAB: i26, -19, KND, KND
22_88kA2A: i26, -7, 2, KND
22_88kA2AA: i26, -19, KND, KND
22_88ka2A: i26, -15, 3, KND
22_88ka2AA: i26, -19, KND, KND
22_88k{A}: i26, -3, 17, 17
22_88kA{A}: i26, 2, 14, 14
22_88Ka2A: i32, -15, +3, KND
22_88Ka2AA: i32, -19, KND, KND
11_77K: i33, -12, KND, KND
Slide: i62?, -22?, KND, KND
FULLRUN K: i21, -22?, KND, KND

66A+B: i31, -16, KND, KND

Special Stance:

6B+K: i20
4B+K: i20
B+K: i20
2_8B+K: i24

Normal GI= i2

B+K: aGI i7-i540??? . TC i7~
SBH A: i28, -19, KND, KND
SBH a2: i47?, N/A, SP, SP
SBH a2G: i48?, N/A, SP, SP
SBH B: i30, -7, KND, KND
SBH K: i16, -14, KND, KND

SRSH A: i36, -2, KND, KND
SRSH B: i19, -21, STN, STN
SRSH K: i20, -19, STN, STN

SCH A: i18, -1-3, +9, +9
SCH B: i18, 2, KND, KND
SCH K: i11, -7, 3, 3
SCH KK: i11, -14, 2, 2

SSH A: i24, -17, 0, KND
SSH AA: i24, -17, KND, KND
SSH B: i28, -18, KND, KND
SSH BB: i28, -18, KND, KND
SSH BBB: i28, -18, KND, KND
SSH K: i10, -14, KND, KND

Edge Attacks:

236236A+B+K: i16-i18???, -23, KND, KND *loses to i16s, beats i17s, clashes or beats i18s
236236A+B+K(off axis): i16, -25, KND, KND *loses to i16s, beats i17s, clashes or beats i18s
236236A+B+K(MAX range): i24, -15, KND, KND *loses to i16s, beats i17s, clashes or beats i18s
66kA+B+K: i15, -18, STN, STN
66k{A+B+K}: i15, ±0, STN, STN
SBH kA+B+K: i16, -14, KND, KND
SCH kA+B+K: i11, +10, SLNC, SLNC

Jumping attacks

8_9A: i28,-10, KND, KND *clashes as early as i25, as late as i30
8_9B: i34,-11, KND, KND
8_9K: i25,-12, 4, KND
7A: i28, -10 *clashes as early as i25, as late as i30
7B: i34, -11, 0, 0
7K: i25, -12, 4, KND

Spidey said:
snip
Click to expand...
I took your word on the aGI and the kA strings, since i was too lazy to retest them all at the moment. also, you forgot to add the 22_88Ka2A strings (high kick into double low)

anyways, i was comparing our results spidey, and for the most part we got all the important stuff the same, but there were some differences in data on things such as range values, and some speeds:

i found that agA and iagA have range values: the farther away you are, the more + on block these moves are. same for their stance transitions, and same idea for the move 11_44_77A.

no range values for 3aA? i found the slowest input to be i30, but the fastest to be i26(achieved through both mashing, and input with a turbo controller)

i found b4 has range values, and hits faster at close range, regardless of input speed.

i found FC B to be i22, but i did not test for range values.

2A+B has some strange clash properties, but seems to me like its i30. perhaps it may have range values, but im not sure.

i found 66A to be i33, not i32.

i found FC K to be -2 on hit, not +2.

i think our A+B string values may be different

66B is definately slower than i30

44B is definately slower than i36

44K is definately worse than -15 on block. however, it can only be punished by attacks that hit grounded, such as say, launchers.

i found 6_4B+K to be i20.

our SCH A results differed, but we already know this move has insane range values, so it doesnt really matter. all we really need to know is its general center speed properties since it has so much variation. players should look for an early or late hit/block otherwise to determine their next course of action.

66kBE is i15.

Why no range values for CE? i found its only -25 if the 2nd hit whiffs, which is only due to alignment issues.

i found JMP B to be i34

i found that JMP A has some incredibly strange clash properties...but its definately i28.

anyways, i think thats everything. if you see any more differences, feel free to point them out ^-^

once we get this out of the way, i'll update the sticky.

Good work! =D
 
Some of those stuff like fc K was just me slacking :P I didnt notice them.
Now, Maxi's 3A (i19) should trade with Sieg's 2A+B after his 66A on block, but instead it trades with i18's so i think it is i29.

You are right on fc B, 66A,

A+B cant be +4 on block and only +2 on hit at first glance :P I think its +3 on block and +6 on hit as SSH trades with Cervy's 3A+B (i21) and to confirm that Cervy's 3A+B trade with Sieg's 6K after 1K on hit.

b4, 66B clashes with Cervy's 3A+B making it i31, but im sure i got it to clash with a frame faster attacks and slower at the same time. Its a strange move but we shouldnt focus on the speed anyway ;p Same shit with 44B tbh. I got various resaults there.

44K is -15 as Cervy can punish with his 2K (i15) but not his 2B (i16)

b4, 6B+K, SRSH B would trade with Cervy's 4A (i29) but it beats it instead, although it trades with Sieg's 1A (i28).

66kBE slacked to update when i found out that 66K is i15

I think j.B is i35 as 66A, j.B trades with Sieg's B where b4, j.B just loses. I had tested that move really early on and was bound to be wrong :P

CE should be i19 as i couldnt punish -18 moves but i could punish -19 ones. Close to a wall it can be punish with Sieg's 6B (i25), but not midscreen.

updated with corrections and 22/88Ka2A additions
 
now, im almost certain that 44K is -17 on block, because pyrrha 3B will punish it, but not sieg 3B.

tbh, i still think 2A+B might have some sort of range value. but i'll look into it again later after work today.

again, i'll look at the rest of the stuff another time when i get home today, but i gotta head to work lol.
 
did some retesting

alright, so i was right in that the stance transitions to SSH and SRSH are i20, but you were also right with your clash results, which further went on to prove that all of the moves in SRSH are 1 frame faster than i have recorded them to be (dont know why i didnt catch this, because i specifically remember almost the exact same clash results when i was testing it.) due to this result, i also discovered that 66A was actually i34, JMP B to be i35, 66B to be i32, 44K to be i30, 44B to be i40. SSH K i found to be i9, SSH A to be i22, and SSH B to be i26. further testing also showed that all SSH transitions are also 1 more frame negative on block than before believed.

CE punishes -19's, but beats moves that are i16 or slower. i actually think it might have a few frames of invincibility or something before impact. otherwise this move has some really trippy clashing issues, but that being said, it is i19.

also, went and did a little test, all grabs are i17. FC A_B+G grabs are i19. iFC A_B+G grabs are i24. iWR K is i22, which means iWR B and iWR A are i24 and i25 respectively.

anyways, after this last test i got alot of data to update by a frame or 2.
 
I believe all CE got invincibility after the flash so you cant really tell their startup that way. Only reliable way is by trying to punish stuff.

About stances i couldnt count the startup of moves on my own so yeah im taking your word about their speed :P
Also i had a theory about SCH K being i10 but i dont even remember how i got there and believe me it wasnt simple lol.

The slow moves are just too random, as i said i get all kinds of results ;/ its not fun anymore :P
Ill do some more testing of my own and post it, then we can decide the fate of those moves!! lolz
 
Spidey said:
I believe all CE got invincibility after the flash so you cant really tell their startup that way. Only reliable way is by trying to punish stuff.

About stances i couldnt count the startup of moves on my own so yeah im taking your word about their speed :P
Also i had a theory about SCH K being i10 but i dont even remember how i got there and believe me it wasnt simple lol.

The slow moves are just too random, as i said i get all kinds of results ;/ its not fun anymore :P
Ill do some more testing of my own and post it, then we can decide the fate of those moves!! lolz
Click to expand...
you know, i almost ended up with that same theory tonight about SCH K being i10. but then i realized grabs were i17, and that 2_8B+K was i24 instead of i25 like it was in SC4 lol.
 
updated the sticky with a few further corrections and such. we missed a handful of transitions + BT attacks, but thats not much of a problem, 20 minutes of work at most. now, does anybody wanna help me measure just guard frames? =D
 
Spidey said:
You called? :P
I wont have access to sc5 for a couple of days more though
Click to expand...
oh? did your console die or something? =/ that sucks lol. well i wont be starting on this for a few days anyways, im probably gonna wait till my next day off, which is thursday so that i can give things my full dedication again.
 
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