Siegfried SCV Non-Gameplay Related Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is what I gather from your post:

you wanna make ALOT of his moves less punishable, AND make his stance transitions faster. AND on top of that you wanna up his spacing game so he doesn't have to turtle so much against IVY. It sound like your vision of Sieg is a character that can go all out aggressive, without fear of punishment, I'm sorry that's just not realistic. You wanna make it so he has no "USELESS" moves. Personally, I dont find any of his moves to be useless. Sure, it may not be wise to do those moves often, but believe me when I tell you that all of his moves have the right time and place to use. You claim that 6KKB is a bad move. This is a good, reasonably quick counter move. If first hit is counter, then next 2 are guaranteed. This move wont work if they block it, hence is why I said it should be used as a counter. Not to mention it knocks them to the ground for some more ground n pound.

Even his 4BBB, believe it or not, I have found a use for. You definitely don't wanna do this move very often, but at the very least, the element of surprise counts for something.

When people talk about balancing the characters, I think they often make the mistake of trying to balance all the MOVES instead. Let me clarify what I mean; Some moves are objectively better than others within one character. What most want to do is improve the weaker moves, and nerfing the best moves, thus making a character who doesn't have any weak or strong moves. I feel the need to point out the fact that it is these vast differences in usefullness of moves, that truly defines that characters style of play. The fact that alot of Sieg's moves should not be done very often just makes his game-play that much more interesting for me. What your trying to do is make a character that has no weaknesses, and thus no significant strengths either. Like I said before, it's those differences that define the strategy.

Fixing alot of his obvious flaws, I fear will result in also nerfing alot of his strengths. That is, if balance remains the top priority. You get what I'm sayin? Keep his strengths and weaknesses intact. Keep the high risk/ high reward factor in please, its fun that way
 
catch-me-slippin said:
This is what I gather from your post:

you wanna make ALOT of his moves less punishable, AND make his stance transitions faster. AND on top of that you wanna up his spacing game so he doesn't have to turtle so much against IVY. It sound like your vision of Sieg is a character that can go all out aggressive, without fear of punishment, I'm sorry that's just not realistic. You wanna make it so he has no "USELESS" moves. Personally, I dont find any of his moves to be useless. Sure, it may not be wise to do those moves often, but believe me when I tell you that all of his moves have the right time and place to use. You claim that 6KKB is a bad move. This is a good, reasonably quick counter move. If first hit is counter, then next 2 are guaranteed. This move wont work if they block it, hence is why I said it should be used as a counter. Not to mention it knocks them to the ground for some more ground n pound.

Even his 4BBB, believe it or not, I have found a use for. You definitely don't wanna do this move very often, but at the very least, the element of surprise counts for something.

When people talk about balancing the characters, I think they often make the mistake of trying to balance all the MOVES instead. Let me clarify what I mean; Some moves are objectively better than others within one character. What most want to do is improve the weaker moves, and nerfing the best moves, thus making a character who doesn't have any weak or strong moves. I feel the need to point out the fact that it is these vast differences in usefullness of moves, that truly defines that characters style of play. The fact that alot of Sieg's moves should not be done very often just makes his game-play that much more interesting for me. What your trying to do is make a character that has no weaknesses, and thus no significant strengths either. Like I said before, it's those differences that define the strategy.

Fixing alot of his obvious flaws, I fear will result in also nerfing alot of his strengths. That is, if balance remains the top priority. You get what I'm sayin? Keep his strengths and weaknesses intact. Keep the high risk/ high reward factor in please, its fun that way
Click to expand...

3KKB is in no way a NCC, your opponent can still block the attack if the 1st hit CH's. as for my post, im not saying make him ridiculously safer, im saying take away the stupid amounts of punishability he has from very basic attacks. as for stance changes i stick to my story that 2_8B+K is slow, and i also stick to my desire for faster stance cancel changes.

4BBB is OK if ur aiming to play a mind game with an opponent who has a sliver of health left, but seriously he has waaayy better options. especially since b6 has better range, is faster, is adv on hit, is safe ect ect

also again i bring up the point of y a linear short ranged move that already has very little going for it is punishable from the 1st hit onward?

im in no way saying that he should lose any of his weaker or stronger moves, im not saying in any way shape or form that it should ever get to that extent. but having something like doing a single 3K at -13 is ridiculous. i can understand 3KK being -20, but cmon! what im suggesting isnt at all unreasonable, and it would in no way nerf him. as for B2A i believe its only real place is in a tech trap? or maybe on wake up? this really isnt a good move at all, outside of things such as SBH B ~ B2A, in which case i think there are better options available anyways.

he would by no means be in any way as over powered or as "neutralized" as u portray him to be in this post. did i say to make things like 3B safe? did i say lets make SRSH K non launcher punishable? did i say lets give him a whole crap load of new tools or mixups to break the game? no. infact i mainly asked for fixing whiffing issues, making 3KKB, which isnt even a NCC into a NCC, making the 1st hit of string moves safer, especially when the move itself already has no SC output, is linear, short ranged and has little to no damage output. in no way would making small, simple changes like these turn siegfried into a super safe yet agressive beast. like i ALSO stated we're not here to make another amy.

and no, i want to up his game so that he can effectively kill spacing. ivy is simply a good example of what i was trying to show. infact giving him the power to kill spacing wouldnt even involve making him any safer at all. it would simply tweak his moves so that they're ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE. as luff already stated b4 your post alot of siegs long range moves are already extremely punishable, linear or flawed.

and these are not extreme game changing changes. he will still play the same, and he will still be mid tier. hell knowing him compared to the rest of the cast i wouldnt be suprised if i saw him low tier again like he was in SC1.

like i said b4, u have ur opinion, i have mine.

now if u DO want "Amyfried" then look at my desires. i do not expect those to be in the game at all, nor will i be disappointed if they are not in the game. these changes would be the minimum required to ensure him a high tier spot. plus they'd either be kool to have, convenient to have or nice to have.
 
Slayer_X64 said:
but having something like doing a single 3K at -13 is ridiculous. i can understand 3KK being -20, but cmon!
Click to expand...
-13 isn't so bad because you have the threat of a sweeping low to make the move a lot safer on block than the frames would indicate, and then you'd have the last hit to shelter some of the unsafety of the 2nd hit sweep.

I understand that comparing a move like that to amy's 3B/ 3BA where it's safe BOTH hits does skew the judgement.

and no, i want to up his game so that he can effectively kill spacing. ivy is simply a good example of what i was trying to show.
Click to expand...

There are other characters that are even more gimped by ivy's absurd ability to space (and then switch to a superior mid/close range stance at closer ranges).
 
hmm...actually i see ur point there WuHT. however i still think that it should be made a NCC, since on NH its still slow enough to jump the second hit.

as for spacing, siegfried also falls victim to sophie, astaroth, xianghua, kilik, even zas. i dont want a mega spacing killer, just give him back his old SRSH A. even having that would be more than enough
 
Luff_The_Talim2 said:
-sigh- What is it with Siggy's and Walls of text. I was this close to not reading and posting. -.- Dylan...

Anyway. Hello everyone! I'm Luff. You know me as the #1 online Talim and amazing Tira user. I fight siggy so much. And i've noticed that the moves of his that have the most range are kinda punishable. like that Uhh. b+k~a+b is hella punishable and bad and all. But it's range is huge! So i'd say maybe give him a move with tremendous range that can help him with his many siggy ways...
Click to expand...

Luff seriously baby get your shit fixed, I be hella bored. I want to see sigfried with a beefed out body and non stringy hair, and taller, and less armor and more abs, but thats just me (:
 
I don't care much for safer Sig, I'm used to the punish. But some of his moves are slow & punishable, in competitive (not friendly sparring) play that = "moves that goes unused", & that = less fun at playing competitively. Competitive play is about knowing what to do, doing it & have fun at it, not repeating the same few moves just because those few moves are the only really practical ones.

IMO, SC4 was intentionally made slower than SC3 as an attempt to compensate for the lag they already knew they couldn't handle. On the long run I think SC4 offline falls as a competitive game for its general slow speed plus its general many more punishable while being this slow. No need to explain whySC4 online falls too. But I guess that's why SC4 is so slow.

I want more moves, MORE CANCELS, more manual action control, less auto-moves & guarantee combos, more mix up, more fun.

I want the current flawed moves corrected, anyone can check my list of found flaws & confirm by yourselves. I'm ok with losing by my own "short coming", but losing by a game flaw that couldn't carry out my intention that would have won me the match.. the sucks. Aaaand it happens a lot in SC4 and T6, never on VF or even SF.

Its time for NAMCO to stop recycling & start pro-polishing the game with an SC1-like effort or an effort that surpasses the record on those times. I know they can do it.

Edit: Another opinion about Sig: I think his roulette should definitely be invisible. An example of what I'm referring to with "invisible-stance-transitioning" is Lei-Fei from VF4evo & VF5.. THAT'S THE WAY SIG SHOULD ROULETTE, fast & QUITE!! XD oh, and with instant input & instant parry/dodge effects right after choice upon input. ;)
 
I want to see Sig and NM as high tier. Lets face it, they are the most important SC characters. They should be good. Siggy needs to have better combo possibilities, and a good Back step, but the whole Low Tier fact makes him pretty much awesome and fun, since I love Low Tier.
 
I don't know what your talking about, because when I pull off 3kkb as a counter, I can clearly see my opponent is stunned and the next 2 attacks always hit, leaving them knocked to the ground. This of course leaves an opportunity for 3b. The same is true in reverse. When it happens to me, I'm stunned and the next 2 hit me.

Not so sure how there can be any confusion there. Is it possible that none of your attempts were in fact counters?

If you play online a lot, maybe it's different. I play offline only since I think online is trash.
 
Nice fixes, and i hope all of this gets taken into consideration...
One thing I really would like to point out: When Sig is in SCH, he does have 1 hand free, but it just dangles there...
It would be cool to see him do SCH 6K, which would be Nightmare's 6K from Chief Hold, or SCH 3K which could be a new attack like a punch to the liver or something brutal like ripping thier guts out...
SCH 3K - i12
G = -10
H = CSTN
CH = KND
AT (on CH)
33B can combo, 1B is a tech trap, b:4 is a force block followup...
 
catch-me-slippin said:
I don't know what your talking about, because when I pull off 3kkb as a counter, I can clearly see my opponent is stunned and the next 2 attacks always hit, leaving them knocked to the ground. This of course leaves an opportunity for 3b. The same is true in reverse. When it happens to me, I'm stunned and the next 2 hit me.

Not so sure how there can be any confusion there. Is it possible that none of your attempts were in fact counters?

If you play online a lot, maybe it's different. I play offline only since I think online is trash.
Click to expand...


works the same way for us online trash too btw, just so ya know ;)
 
3K, 1K/ 3K, a+kA/ 3KK/ 3K, 3K/ 3K, b6 - Its all fear mixup on hit pick your poison...
A new 4B would be nice, the move isn't horrible but ok well maybe it is horrible, but still, Asta's headbutt is so much better... This doesn't really fit Sig for me even though I know he's had this move in previous games, I feel it's time to change it... I would like to see his A+G grab animation changed too, for one reason really; the first part where he hits the opponents face with the hilt of his sword would fit better as a regualar attack... And, that's what I'd like to see 4B turn into, the beginning of his A+G grab... For a High strike it would have to be fast, but safer than 6K, yet give something less rewarding than a SHK on CH...
Here's my frame take on this attack:
------------------------------------------------------
4B - i15
G = -9
H = -4~+6
CH = KND
NC+AT (on CH)
(opponent ~FC on grd)
(mash stun on hit)
------------------------------------------------------
When the opponent gets hit there's a buffering stun were if the opponent mashes an attack after being hit before the 4B recovery animation ends then Sig gets up to +6 on hit, kind of like X's 6BA... On CH, Sig follows through with the rest of the A+G animation, hitting them in the face a second time resulting in a KND... 4K/ A+K/ 3A/ 2B/ and 2A are all uninterruptable wake-up options, because of this you can also apply B4 (fastest version) as wake-up due to fear of the other options, in this case B4 will track 100% but only if you nail the fastest version timing, keep in mind it can be interrupted but not easily... 15dmg. on hit/ 35dmg. on CH... Blocking this attack forces the opponent into crouched, the attack is completly safe, allowing a GI followup on grd...
 
ZOMBIEBEAR666 said:
Nice fixes, and i hope all of this gets taken into consideration...
One thing I really would like to point out: When Sig is in SCH, he does have 1 hand free, but it just dangles there...
It would be cool to see him do SCH 6K, which would be Nightmare's 6K from Chief Hold, or SCH 3K which could be a new attack like a punch to the liver or something brutal like ripping thier guts out...
SCH 3K - i12
G = -10
H = CSTN
CH = KND
AT (on CH)
33B can combo, 1B is a tech trap, b:4 is a force block followup...
Click to expand...

What an awesome idea!

Hey, what if Sig could grab during SCH? A grab with another type of purpose other than just damage, maybe a grab to re-locate Sig's opponent to his left or right.. Like that grab Ivy had back in SC2 during her "upper-whip-swinging" stance, it just grab then re-locates opponent & gave her advantage.

It wouldn't be too much for Sig, I mean, Mitsu has grabs in his Mist stance along with all those other pros..
 
^Maybe a grab shifting into SRSH???
I thought of a nice little + to 11{B}: Make 11{B}, SCH KK a Natural Combo...
Something that just dumbfounded me, made me feel a bit embarrassed too, I realized Sig really only fights with 1 hand in his stances anyway ~lol... So it could be a possibility of more K attacks in each stance, perhaps involving A+K as well...
 
this sounds really interesting. i would be great to have changes such as these 4 SC5. imagine the depth it would add! the options! the fun! *quivers with uncontainable happiness*
 
more desires:

-bring back SC2 NBS bA/2A (we'd call it SCH bA/2A) 2A is i29. bA is slightly slower, but the delay would work well with SCH {B} since its begigging animation fakes out to be SCH {B}. this could at least provide a bit of a mixup for SCH other than Soul Crush & GI timing mixups. it'd be launcher punishable for sure, but it KNDs on hit. hold the input down (SCH b{A}/2{A}) to transition into side hold.

-bring back more versatile movement in stance. not having full out running i wouldnt mind, but even being able to step in stance would be nice. we could also use it for added inputs eg SCH 22_88AAA(not a real input, just an example)

-bring back the ability to cancel stances very early after input. an example of it from SC4 is still shown in nightmares NSS transition B+K, which can be cancelled almost instantaneously by G before the transition is complete. dont add this to every stance of course, as some it wouldnt make sense in (SRSH in particular since its meant to be risky, as ur charging in for a 50/50) but for 4B+K it would be nice.

-i dont remember if it was said but add 4B+K SSH as a transition in SSH to add more backstep. should be the same as how BT SSH 4B+K is now.

-make SRSH transition 6B+K dash in further. it would be nice to have it cover just a little more distance.

-bring back the b4 ~ SCH cancel from SC1 in some form. stop it from being so easily GI'd.

-somehow give sieg his nm SC1/2 BB, in some way, shape or form. it may have been punishable, but it was at least better than having his current BB.

-i got the perfect fix to make 4BBB somewhat useful. just replace it with his old SC2 4KK (headbutt ~ shoulder charge). make it punishable if ya want, but at least it wont have whiffing issues since the shoulder charge covers more distance to hit.

-it would be fun to see the 66{K}2_5_8 into NBS(SCH) back. would at least give a tool to encourage more 66K use.
 
How about 66K] into RSH?
66K], RSH'K
66K], RSH'B
66K], RSH'A+B
66K], RSH'4B+K long back step into SSH
 
hmm that sounds ok, but i dont know what the physics of the stance under such a transition would be, seeing as SRSH is an advancing step. for balance issues through that transition i would limit the backstep of the SSH transition for sure since off a 66K transition ur mostly committed to charging, making changing ur direction of momentum difficult.

also my bad for saying NBS bA is i29, i forgot SC2 data was measured using the i12 K standard. under SC4's i13 K measurements it would be i30. my bad.
 
66K:A makes it a JF natural combo with a sliding knockdown... 66K:A, 33{B} is a combo and 1B catches tech near walls and edges, that sounds cool to me... 66K{A} can go into SBH, I can picture this, after 66K:{A} goes into base hold SBH K a tech trap and SBH B or SBH A+B are a force block... The attack might be too good now, oops... I would like his 6K to be -12, those extra 2 frames are looming around for someone to AA Sig... Something I would love to see is SSH B's auto-IMP window extended for longer, it only impacts Highs and transitions get 2A'd anyway...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom