Siegfried SCV Non-Gameplay Related Discussion

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IdleMind said:
I want safefried to be completely unviable in SC5.

I want the return of stance-roulette or die Sigfried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyipnl2dBOI

INB4 BUT THATS NIGHTMARE

Come on guys, you should know better :)

-Idle
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When you say "completely unviable", I would hope you don't mean to the point of having nothing safe outside of stance. Siegfried needs at least some sort of safe or quick poke outside of stance - unless he becomes a monster at rushdown in stance, regular stance needs to have at least a few tools.

However, I agree that a Siegfried that focuses heavily on stance based offense AND defense would be vastly preferable to what SCIV Siegfried is like, where stances are situational, almost always unsafe, and in general difficult to implement well against someone with even limited character knowledge. I enjoy going into stance, yet feel that a lot of times that - with the options given - Siegfried's stance were only designed for punishment. (3)B is the most obvious case, and iWS (B) against Sisters, Amy, Xianghua, etc; are the same. Even in the case that iWS (B) is used against a character who can't interrupt, the mixup you get from SCH is pretty weak. If Siegfried had more options from stance - ESPECIALLY defensive options - some of his harder matchups could become much better, or even neutral.

I think Namco is going for this in at least some capacity. We saw SCH B+K aGI Mitsu's AA after a blocked chief hold entrance (I forget which, but that scenario was impossible in SCIV) so they're at least implementing one option for him. If they're listening to our reactions here, which were mostly "Oh my God did you see this I love Siegfried so much this is the best day ever", they might see that a stance-powerful Siegfried is one that a lot of us have been waiting to play.

Aside, SC2 Nightmare was my favorite iteration of Siegfried's moveset.

/siegfriedplayerwalloftext
 
What I mean by unviable is "requires egregiously more work to win"; so much so that it has a subtle effect of pushing you to use the stances.

Lets say Sig has a stance poke low that is unseeable, and 1K that we know now.

Stance poke low should do 15 damage, be 0 or even +on hit and have a transition option, and should be "barge punishable" on block (a tekken term meaning more than a poke, but less than a full launcher). Should hit grounded and have no tracking.

1K should do 7 (yes, 7) damage, be -frames on normal hit, 0 on CH, have no transition option. Should be barge punishable on block. Should hit grounded and have no tracking.

That is what I mean by "unviable". Compare these two things, and think about how that subtly would inform his entire gameplan; because eventually you would realize his "non stance damage" will quickly be outpaced by his stance options. Basically, I want him to have Taki damage outside of stance, and Voldo damage off his stance options, to better illustrate the difference.

-Idle
 
jeez not even + on CH ? I see you may exaggerate to prove a point, but i'm just gonna say that it maybe taking it a bit to the extremes because then you cannot compete with a non-stance character when you just need to finish them off when they have low life you have a slight life lead.
 
The extremes are necessary.

Have you paid attention to how the meta-game in any fighter develops? Risks will NEVER be taken unless there is an extreme compulsion to do so, or you have no choice but to take them. I would rather the former than the latter, but the situation you mentioned is a product of the system of thought I'm advocating- would I change that to get rid of that one situation? No, I wouldn't.

-Idle
 
WuHT said:
jeez not even + on CH ? I see you may exaggerate to prove a point, but i'm just gonna say that it maybe taking it a bit to the extremes because then you cannot compete with a non-stance character when you just need to finish them off when they have low life you have a slight life lead.
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I think he's actually hit the nail on the head. To qualify: as Siegfried is now, 1K being neutral at best on CH would be absolutely unacceptable. But give him a move in stance that absolutely outclasses that 1K, and all it means is that I'm spending a lot more time in stance, which I honestly wish I could do as is in SCIV. Besides, if you're using it to finish someone off, it doesn't matter what the frames are. Not to mention, if he's doing huge amounts of damage in stance, it should cut down on amount of situations where the opponent is a low damage poke away from death, while also giving people reason to actually fear Siegfried's stances.
 
K... I think Sieg has a very very awkward and useless move... SRSH A. Just eww... How much time does he need to execute it? A year?

BTW, I think I got it right... It's not SSH, right? LOL.
 
It sounds awesome!
K, if they are adding SC3 moves into SCV-Sieg's list, well, they should change SC4 SRSH A into its SC3 state imo.
 
Its funny. SC4 Sieg is higher tier than SC3 Sieg, but if you would copy-paste SC3 Sieg into SC4s environment hed be better, except in the spacing and anti-step department (the new 22_88B and unstepable iWS AA make a BIG difference). Not gonna talk about SC3:AE Sieg, that guy was a monster. GRoD raped everything. Tho that move was admittedly too good to remain in a game that has any intention of being balanced (not that SC4 was).

Out of the top of my head here are some things that Sieg lost in the transition from SC3 to 4 and could use in SC5:

Faster step (move those quick German feet)
Old 66K and canned B followup (TC, delayable, nice RO distane, yummm)
Old 4A (i14 advancing poke yes plz)
Old 9B frames (-3~-2)
Old SCH B frames (-2~-1, positive on slight charge)
Old [ B ] frames (SBH K traded with the fastest AAs, resulting in a free combo)
Old SBH K (insane RO distance, combo on ch)
Old SCH A+B (great range, -3~-2 on block)
Old SCH A clash properties (due to this being an incredibly fast BT move at the same time it had active hit frames very early in its animation, enabling it to clash and nullify fast horizontals meant to punish the transition, I remember killing millions of Ivy 2A attempts when 3B was blocked at midrange)
Old SRSH B (looked manly as fuck, incredible range)
Old SRSH A (as mentioned in my previous post)
Old Flapjack properties (could GI punishment attempts of i14 or slower)
Old 2A+B (RO)
Old ch WS B combo (WS [ B ]~old SCH A+B~4A, over 70 dmg + great wakeup, I like the new WS B, but since the old one is back, might as well bring ALL of it back)
Old 22K series frames (both it and its first canned followup were +2~+4 on block and close to +10 on hit)
Old WS K frames (safe, better advantage on hit)
Old 66B tech-traps (om nom gimme that WS B launch)
 
Man you are soooo right! Sieg was awesome in SC3... (I haven't played SC3:AE, I don't know if I'll ever be able to)...
So I'm glad to see some SC3 stuff in our new Sieg. And I'd love to see the stuff you suggest ^^
BTW, even Tira was far better in SC3, so I want to see moves from there...

<They had awesome stuff there... But they should have taken their time with it... It was a rushed job...>

One thing, though, a little bit of topic... I just found out that SC3 has Just frame moves, but they cannot be seen easily, by me at least. I only found Sieg's b:4. Does he have more?
 
He had a:g:A as well.

That being said, playing Sieg in SC3 sucked. X went around all your shit, Sophie just faceraped you with her stupid UB shit, Asta did 3 times as much damage as you etc etc. I had more fun playing SC4 Sieg, although SC3 was more fun overall. Its not just a matter of the character itself, but also the environment hes played in. Taken that in mind, Sieg being solid in 5 will not necessarily make playing him fun and likewise Sieg being subpar doesnt mean the opposite. Im crossing my thumbs for a game were everyone has good stuff to use, tho (and the best ones arent too over the top).
 
RSH'A alone on SC3 made a lot of difference compared to Sig's zoning game in SC4. IMO, Sig's zoning game was legit in SC3 by RSH'A. In SC4 Sig's zoning game is just too slow against StepG (as zoning) masters.

If I had SC3's RSH'A on SC4, I would have made a lot of "idiots" (no offense & ggs) to QUIT StepG so reckless & successfully, but I don't have it u_u
 
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