Some hard questions about useless moves

CaptainHook

[10] Knight
This idea has been floating around in my head for longer than I can remember, probably as far back as my first fighting game: SF2.

My first question is this: Why are there useless moves?

Is it an unintended consequence/design flaw?

Or is it made that way on purpose as part of the normal learning curve?

Do they purposefully make certain moves effective against noobs but terrible against veterans?

Is the game better/deeper because of the existence of trash moves? Or does it suffer because of it?

Would it be better to reduce the move sets even further in SC6 to eliminate waste, or would it be better to buff the bad moves so that they DO serve a niche purpose?

The reason I'm asking these questions is because pretty much every fighter eventually boils down to a fraction of the move list at the high levels. Personally I wish it wasn't like that but that is just my opinion.

Every time I learn a new character, it always goes the same way. First I learn all the moves to memory, then I look up combo's on youtube and practice them until they are muscle memory, then I look up frame data and try to memorize as much as possible in terms of best punisher and playing safe, and then I eventually go through a move reduction because certain ones just don't seem that great.

I am mostly interested in the opinions of pro players and possibly even FG designers themselves, though I will listen to anyone who makes good points.
 

Sett

[14] Master
If all moves were born equal then there will be no good/shit moves.

Filler Filler Filler Filler

and its always good to find a way to make them work. For example Pyrrha's amazing unblockable, if you do this while Mitsurugi is in MIST you have a good chance of either hitting him with it if he attempts a high or grab and if he does his low high string as the high won't hit = free punish. If he does a mid you then you are very very fucked.

The moves I tend to hate are the ones that are string enders that are just never used because you can do a better combo, then again they are noob friendly.
 

CaptainHook

[10] Knight
I try as hard as I can to make as many moves as possible "work" in some way or another. Sadly, some are just outclassed by others.
 

Ramus

[14] Master
When the game is out, there is no bad or good moves, because a deep analysis of every move in every possible situation is not viable, so they create the move list with things that they find viable.
 

Sett

[14] Master
Mitsu's MIST B+K4 is perhaps, the most useless move in the game. The only reason to use it (shit reason) is to kill someone with it and thereby assert your dominance.
 

Death_Emperor_X

[10] Knight
I wish Asta's 3A allowed low grab afterwards, but it doesn't do anything special, other than serve as the same purpose as another move could have, but much safer & more punishable. If 3A allowed me to low grab afterwards, I would use it much often. However, I see no point in using it at all, since it doesn't do anything special, or at least a moderate benefit.
 

MuffinMan123

[10] Knight
No move is useless in the game! You must believe in the heart of the movelist, and it will answer your call!



Aaaaaah YIGIOH!
 

CaptainHook

[10] Knight
This is why FG's need to be introduced to the PC so we can 'mod' (balance) them. I guarantee you the 'people' will end up balancing the game far better than the developer
 

Never Relent

Relentless
Try to find a purpose for those useless moves. Apply it to your strategy. Your opponents will be caught off guard because a "useless move" is what they will least expect.
 

Aanlaien

[08] Mercenary
Please give me some more information before I answer your question.

By useless, do you mean unsafe or a move that seemingly does nothing?

You like to play with Raphael as you said in my post earlier. Could you give me an example of one of his trashy moves?

After I get the necessary information, I will take it to training and provide you with my analysis.

Until then, take care.
 

Aanlaien

[08] Mercenary
33A. That move is a good example of trash
I use that move all the time... =(

Edited. I suppose I should add as to why I use it.

Most horizontals can be ducked. 33A is a mid horizontal that can attack from mid range. People assume Raphael is a high linear character so they usually try to duck or sidestep. This move ensures a connect on both scenarios, and is safe to use unless you whiff.

Why do you think it is useless? And do you have any more for me?
 
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WuHT

Premium Moderator
This move ensures a connect on both scenarios, and is safe to use unless you whiff.
?
Just to be clear: the thing is -16 on block, and despite pushback, can be regularly punished.
Its not useless but on paper its pretty inferior:
i22, 16 damage on hit, -16 on block, +2 on NH and CH. Has decent knockback though, and I'm fairly certain it doesn't TC. You put that move on any other character and they'd all say its' terrible. However, if you use it VERY sparingly, the knockback may surprise the opponent into not reacting properly and you may take advantage of it. Otherwise, its definitely not a core top 20 move.
 

Aanlaien

[08] Mercenary
Just to be clear: the thing is -16 on block, and despite pushback, can be regularly punished.
Its not useless but on paper its pretty inferior:
i22, 16 damage on hit, -16 on block, +2 on NH and CH. Has decent knockback though, and I'm fairly certain it doesn't TC. You put that move on any other character and they'd all say its' terrible. However, if you use it VERY sparingly, the knockback may surprise the opponent into not reacting properly and you may take advantage of it. Otherwise, its definitely not a core top 20 move.
I can't argue with the numbers. I thought I used it more often, but I took another look and in a serious match it rarely comes to mind.
 

OmarMohy

[08] Mercenary
Come to think of it...Does tira have shitty moves? I mean....1A is slow but the damage and range and the relatively safety makes up for it.
Maybe her useless move imho is Gloomy stance 3Ka and Either stance 8BK~1 but they aren't useless but situational