Legend
[08] Mercenary
Mist B is 8 frames. Relic A is 5.
Stance study
- Thread starter Belial
- Start date
Mist B is 8 frames. Relic A is 5.
KnightSpirit
[09] Warrior
Relic Gi can GI ALL mid attacks even kicks, however if you GI at a late impact frame, there is a chance that it will only do a GI, but no follow up attacks... perfect GI will also do more damage then regular relic gi but not sure how much... never test it.
As for my video, thank you for watch, but I'm not the one who record the video, Chang's friend was the one recording everything, I just cut and paste the videos and edit them using window movie maker.
KnightSpirit
[09] Warrior
That feel about right... may I ask how you test this?
Revneg
[09] Warrior
please tell me how you tested this, so i can double check your data and put the stuff in the wiki.
also, if you aGI from far away, it'll end up just being a GI instead of having the followup after.
Legend
[08] Mercenary
Just so we are on the same page, I know the SC community for whatever reason refers to Mitsu's 3b for example as i18. Which is all well and good. I however don't use that terminology. Moves usually have start up (or execution frames), active frames, and recovery frames. So Mitsu's 3b is 17 frames. There's no need to tack on the first active frame IMO. But since it's what people here are accustomed to...
I was trying to determine the GI window for Relic A+B+K. Using Mitsu's B which leaves you at 0 on hit I discovered you'll get a RLC A+B+K Just impact on a i18 frame move. Only exceptions would be Mitsu's 1B and maybe X's 3B. I'm guessing because Mitsu's 1B tech sidesteps, it beats out RLC A+B+K. Not sure what X's problem is though...Mind you it's only an issue at the closest range possible, Half a step back and it will JI as it should.
i17 or faster gets Mitsu smacked in the mouth. i19 to i27 well get you a normal GI, while an i28 move like the Apprentice's 2 A+B, will give you the Elusive GI without the followup attack (There goes the distance theory). Which means the GI window is open for 10 frames.
Because of that you can conclude that transitioning into Relic is 17 frames. Where at 0, Relic A will clash with an i22 frame move such as Mitsu's A+B making RLC A a 5 frame move. On a side note there is no difference in damage between the normal GI and the JI.
KnightSpirit
[09] Warrior
Great finding!! Is still a little different to understand your method, but it does make sense to me and the frame data feels about right. That's good enough for me! Haha
Oh and thx for the correction that P-Gi does the same damage, I never really test it so I automatically assume that a P_Gi counter hit will do more damage... never realize GI counter does fix damage just like throws... haha
Revneg
[09] Warrior
KS, this means he did B against a standing opponent, then he did 4B+K~A+B+K against the opponent's followup.
in one of my recently posted vids, i RLC A+B+K'ed a Kilik 66A at range i think (can't watch it right now), which is i27... so i can agree with your findings here.
just making sure, you are saying that RLC A+B+K's active GI frames start from frame 1, right?
KnightSpirit
[09] Warrior
If I remember correctly, relic Gi start at frame 4. I'm 100% sure it doesn't start at frame 1
Revneg
[09] Warrior
uhhh ok... so then that means if RLC aGI starts at frame 4, then 4B+K is i14, (which JIs at i18) and RLC A is an i8 move (that trades w/ i22)
dang lol... how are you guys testing this, i wanna double-check your data!
Legend
[08] Mercenary
The only issue that I have with that, is that on a JI which would be the 1st frame that you can GI, there is no animation to A+B+K, it's instant. Mitsu doesn't even bring out his blade for the parry, He goes straight into the attack.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Genver: there's no reliable way to figure out frame data on stance moves (at least for me). The best you can find is T_M's work http://www.caliburforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34799 that includes time it takes to go into stance and then atack.
Only thing that seems certain is that RLC A is slower than RLC A+B+K auto GI by 2 frame. And MST B is most definitely not i6 ) stance transitions chew up block recovery naturally so you cant just subjugate block stun from a clashing move speed you know )
A question to KS is there a reliable way to buffer RLC A+B+K when UB wiffs like you do in you skill project? (I didnt like ur skill project btw, maybe if we didnt quarrel before we could cooperate to make something cool. ^_^)
Legend: even regular GI starts frame 2, so probably you are off a few frames, also like I posted before I got PGi 1 go out 2 frame earlier than RLC A clash/trade (see first post for examples), so assuming pGI occurs on _at least_ 4th frame makes more sense. But T_M also appears to view the difference between Gi and RLC A to be 4 frames, so its a bit confusing. Although I'm quite confident in my research (in fact you can double check it effortlessly), and its the same for all stance transitions i've tried, but I also belive in T_M abilities to figure data out.
Only thing that seems certain is that RLC A is slower than RLC A+B+K auto GI by 2 frame. And MST B is most definitely not i6 ) stance transitions chew up block recovery naturally so you cant just subjugate block stun from a clashing move speed you know )
A question to KS is there a reliable way to buffer RLC A+B+K when UB wiffs like you do in you skill project? (I didnt like ur skill project btw, maybe if we didnt quarrel before we could cooperate to make something cool. ^_^)
Legend: even regular GI starts frame 2, so probably you are off a few frames, also like I posted before I got PGi 1 go out 2 frame earlier than RLC A clash/trade (see first post for examples), so assuming pGI occurs on _at least_ 4th frame makes more sense. But T_M also appears to view the difference between Gi and RLC A to be 4 frames, so its a bit confusing. Although I'm quite confident in my research (in fact you can double check it effortlessly), and its the same for all stance transitions i've tried, but I also belive in T_M abilities to figure data out.
KnightSpirit
[09] Warrior
I don't buffer relic GI, I just time and parry the attack visually. While I'm charging UB, I already got lot's of time of observe my opponent and see what he will do, so is not hard to react to it.
Also when I'm charging UB, I don't plan on which level I will release the UB initially. I simply hold on to the button and release until the time is right.
E.G if I start charging, and my opponent react fast and make a move (step, attack) I will release immediately for level one.
if my opponent simply freeze, then I will do release at lvl 2
if my opponent response by moving out of lvl 2 range, then I have two option, either I release lvl 2 and bait for UB or relic B. Or I keep holding for lvl 3 for max range.
if my opponent response by moving out of lvl 2 range, and I keep on holding for lvl 3, and I see that he didn't fall for that either (meaning he is ready to punish my lvl 3 by backing even more) I will keep charging lvl 3 until it return to lvl 2 UB (if my opponent is planning to punish my lvl 3, then he will be to far away to punish my lvl 2 UB most of the time, because lvl 2 punishing window is relatively short)
and lastly, if my opponent already step my lvl 2 and want to wait till I release it for major punishment, I will keep charging to lvl 3. (LVL 3 will re-track my opponent)
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=-x6HV67nV74&feature=PlayList&p=E2E037303979A366&index=7
Round 1 and 2 is a sample of what I'm talking about. I will try to find better example later if I can.
Revneg
[09] Warrior
ok, i've tried to test RLC A's speed (with others' help) based on RLC [K]'s frames on block (-6).
note:
- RLC A loses to Amy WS B (i14)
- RLC A trades with Lizardman WS B (i15)
- RLC A trades with Sophitia WS B (i15)
note:
- this round of testing suggests that RLC A is i9.
- frame data is based on the wiki's frame data.
- more testing to come.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Genver: Did you even read what I posted before.
EDit: and Wiki refers to RLC K being -16 on block (and -6 on hit). so your RLC A should be around i1 in speed terms. I strongly suggest you do not use Wiki data b/c it is updated by people who dont quite understand how frames work. I've already posted link to Tharon_Mortis frame data, that has been the most reliable source for FD since SC2.
RLC K being -6 on block has nothing to do with the actual recovery of the move. try with 11BA which is like -17 on block.
EDit: and Wiki refers to RLC K being -16 on block (and -6 on hit). so your RLC A should be around i1 in speed terms. I strongly suggest you do not use Wiki data b/c it is updated by people who dont quite understand how frames work. I've already posted link to Tharon_Mortis frame data, that has been the most reliable source for FD since SC2.
Legend
[08] Mercenary
Ok I checked out the link you provided...
Twisted_Jester said:
So lets start with the 1st thing on the list. According to Twisted_Jester, 4B+K~RLC A and A+B are both i22 and would clash if both moves were executed at 0 frames...Just for the sake of authenticity, I quoted his findings on B, +0 on hit.
As you can see I agree with Twisted_Jester's work. However he has RLC A+B+K listed as i28. Unfortunately I would have to disagree with that because as I have already posted a Just impact occurs on i18. The GI window is open for 10 frames ending on i28.
I can already tell this post is going to be longer than I want it to be so I'll just sum things up the best I can.
I'm aware of the differences between a regular G.I. and an Auto G.I.
I think you can respond to that better than I can...so you will.
and finally...
Ok, so he acknowledges a 4 frame difference between the 2, J.I. on i18, RLC A on i22...ya, I agree there's a 4 frame difference.
What seems to be the issue is accepting that transitioning to RLC is 17 frames...go figure.
On a side note, agree or disagree it doesn't matter. But at least try and make a good case for your argument.
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
Maybe this is obvious to some, but bear with me here.
How do you use these stances correctly?
You can't truly block out of either one- so I'm assuming they're related to pressure, right?
MST is usually used for oki, sometimes TCing under moves. Is that its only purpose?
When is it appropriate to enter RLC? At what distances?
I have seen people enter RLC at a far distance, and then dash up close, or wait for the opponent to enter. How wise is this action/how much risk is involved in this process?
Thanks in advance for any insights you might have on stance foundations.
How do you use these stances correctly?
You can't truly block out of either one- so I'm assuming they're related to pressure, right?
MST is usually used for oki, sometimes TCing under moves. Is that its only purpose?
When is it appropriate to enter RLC? At what distances?
I have seen people enter RLC at a far distance, and then dash up close, or wait for the opponent to enter. How wise is this action/how much risk is involved in this process?
Thanks in advance for any insights you might have on stance foundations.
Tsubasa28
[10] Knight
Pretty much sums it up.
:)
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
Now now, KS is a good player yes, but a video doesn't give me a logical explanation. you know, in words. :|
I could copy him, but then I'd just be copying KS instead of understanding why, avoiding said scenario being the entire reason I picked up Mitsu in the first place.
I could copy him, but then I'd just be copying KS instead of understanding why, avoiding said scenario being the entire reason I picked up Mitsu in the first place.
Tsubasa28
[10] Knight
I'm quoting from LAU:
"KS truly is the master or Relic stance... it's kinda hard to express how well he uses this stance.. all of us knows that it counters only mids.. and high/low moves will kill it.. but if you look at how KS uses Relic... if you do a low move he'll either 1) outspeed you with RLC A or 2) outspeed/step you with RLC B .... not to mention there's RLC jumps but this is rarely done... if you do high moves.. well you can see the vid and realize what he does against it.... if you simply just LOW guard.. in hopes for RLC [K] blocked (which basically doesn't do crap blocking that low since he can RLC A to beat out nearly all your followups and if he can't RLC A he can RLC GI the rest... -_-.. and yes this is on BLOCKED RLC [K]) it makes things kinda tough."
As for the RLC UB game - quoting from KS:
"I don't buffer relic GI, I just time and parry the attack visually. While I'm charging UB, I already got lot's of time of observe my opponent and see what he will do, so is not hard to react to it.
Also when I'm charging UB, I don't plan on which level I will release the UB initially. I simply hold on to the button and release until the time is right.
E.G if I start charging, and my opponent react fast and make a move (step, attack) I will release immediately for level one.
if my opponent simply freeze, then I will do release at lvl 2
if my opponent response by moving out of lvl 2 range, then I have two option, either I release lvl 2 and bait for UB or relic B. Or I keep holding for lvl 3 for max range.
if my opponent response by moving out of lvl 2 range, and I keep on holding for lvl 3, and I see that he didn't fall for that either (meaning he is ready to punish my lvl 3 by backing even more) I will keep charging lvl 3 until it return to lvl 2 UB (if my opponent is planning to punish my lvl 3, then he will be to far away to punish my lvl 2 UB most of the time, because lvl 2 punishing window is relatively short)
and lastly, if my opponent already step my lvl 2 and want to wait till I release it for major punishment, I will keep charging to lvl 3. (LVL 3 will re-track my opponent)."
There's a lot to digest...
:)
LGInfinite
[09] Warrior
This is going to be a very inelegant explanation, but bear with me...
In RLC your RLC A will beat just about anything provided you aren't at massive disadvantage. That's one of the reason "RLC rush" is so intimidating because the moment a Mitsu player sees the opponent even twitch, he can usually beat out whatever move they were going to do with RLC A provided he is close enough. RLC A+B+K only adds to the pressure that RLC can exert because most of the moves fast enough to beat out RLC A eat the aGI. RLC K gives RLC something that few stances have - a useable low. Even on block RLC [K] is strong, because RLC A will beat out most things from there, and what it won't beat will probably eat RLC A+B+K. RLC B is a strong mid that leads to a guaranteed 1A. The other thing that makes RLC strong is that your opponent cannot simply just stand there because of the threat of RLC [A+B]. Level 1 and 3 charge are damaging verticals, which can wall splat, and level 1 is particularly fast given the damage it offers. Level 2 is horizontal, which can make people reluctant to try and step.
In RLC your RLC A will beat just about anything provided you aren't at massive disadvantage. That's one of the reason "RLC rush" is so intimidating because the moment a Mitsu player sees the opponent even twitch, he can usually beat out whatever move they were going to do with RLC A provided he is close enough. RLC A+B+K only adds to the pressure that RLC can exert because most of the moves fast enough to beat out RLC A eat the aGI. RLC K gives RLC something that few stances have - a useable low. Even on block RLC [K] is strong, because RLC A will beat out most things from there, and what it won't beat will probably eat RLC A+B+K. RLC B is a strong mid that leads to a guaranteed 1A. The other thing that makes RLC strong is that your opponent cannot simply just stand there because of the threat of RLC [A+B]. Level 1 and 3 charge are damaging verticals, which can wall splat, and level 1 is particularly fast given the damage it offers. Level 2 is horizontal, which can make people reluctant to try and step.