Talim in SCVI: Move Study & Analysis

Posted this in the Talim discord, but I dunno if anyone looked into it (...or even listened, lol)

Has anyone here seen the B+K aGI JF cancel? Apparently if you press a button (either 2,4,6,or 8, for stances, or A/BB/K for attacks), right as the horizontal collides with your aGI it cancels the twirl away animation entirely and you basically armor through the attack like a Just Guard almost.

It only works vs High/Mid horis though. Also not sure if it's consistent yet. I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if I can. Busy today.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Posted this in the Talim discord, but I dunno if anyone looked into it (...or even listened, lol)

Has anyone here seen the B+K aGI JF cancel? Apparently if you press a button (either 2,4,6,or 8, for stances, or A/BB/K for attacks), right as the horizontal collides with your aGI it cancels the twirl away animation entirely and you basically armor through the attack like a Just Guard almost.

It only works vs High/Mid horis though. Also not sure if it's consistent yet. I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if I can. Busy today.
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can you clip this plz
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Posted this in the Talim discord, but I dunno if anyone looked into it (...or even listened, lol)

Has anyone here seen the B+K aGI JF cancel? Apparently if you press a button (either 2,4,6,or 8, for stances, or A/BB/K for attacks), right as the horizontal collides with your aGI it cancels the twirl away animation entirely and you basically armor through the attack like a Just Guard almost.

It only works vs High/Mid horis though. Also not sure if it's consistent yet. I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if I can. Busy today.
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can u clip this JF please....
 
speedking1254 said:
her frame data look bad
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This frame data is still not 100% accurate, because it doesn't account for stance cancel frames yet. AABA for example is listed as -4 on block, but it's clearly heavily plus if you enter stance. To the point where WNC A is uninterruptible.
 
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Fuzzieviking said:
why does her WNC feel worse than just side stepping? I just need that to get fixed right quick.
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Dude I've been saying that from the beginning. She gets clipped by launchers, and it's fucking irritating, lol. What's the point? They should program that stance to be immune to vertical attacks and vertical kicks. But they haven't fixed it in over 10 years, so I'd be shocked if they fixed it now.
 
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ZeroEffect317 said:
Dude I've been saying that from the beginning. She gets clipped by launchers, and fucking irritating, lol. What's the point? They should program that stance to be immune to vertical attacks and vertical kicks. But they haven't fixed it in over 10 years, so I'd be shocked if they fixed it now.
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You can't even reliably use it against REs. Which are among the most linear moves in the game. Her 22_88K is leagues better at dodging.
 
Fuzzieviking said:
You can't even reliably use it against REs. Which are among the most linear moves in the game. Her 22_88K is leagues better at dodging.
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It depends on the character you’re dodging. While still vertical, some characters have a bit of a slant to the strike which makes it hard to WNC it in one direction. So, more match up specific knowledge.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Posted this in the Talim discord, but I dunno if anyone looked into it (...or even listened, lol)

Has anyone here seen the B+K aGI JF cancel? Apparently if you press a button (either 2,4,6,or 8, for stances, or A/BB/K for attacks), right as the horizontal collides with your aGI it cancels the twirl away animation entirely and you basically armor through the attack like a Just Guard almost.

It only works vs High/Mid horis though. Also not sure if it's consistent yet. I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if I can. Busy today.
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I mentioned it in the discord a while back, but I was only pressing G to cancel the twirl away animation. I had no idea that you could press other buttons instead.
 
Anyone else feel like Talim's lethal hits are just... not great? I don't think every character needs to be pumping out lethals all day, but hers are so arbitrary and just not very useful, especially not reactively. I feel like you have to be specifically going for one -- and not in a natural way, like a "I really want to hit this" sort of way. When you would be better served doing other things.

44B: Not a reactive low crush, but certainly a good one, especially since it's on a move which is all around one of her best normals.

6(A+B): The... mildly useful one. It leads to good reward, but it's very slow, so actually punishing a whiff with it is somewhat of a miracle.

A+B: Universally rewarding for everyone, Talim's is no different.

BT A+B: A nice scare tactic, but in most situations, people are either going to be ducking this move or blocking it. Good newb trap lethal though.

44A: If this were a 2D game, or a game without weapons, this might be a useful whiff punishment tool for hitting an extended hurtbox against a long range move. However, this is a game with swords, so when the HELL are you going to be able to hit someone's body with this move after a whiffed high except against another Talim? Also the reward is garbage.

WNC~K: If WNC actually worked against verticals, maybe this might be useful. However, you get MORE damage going for WNC~B~B into an air combo I think. It's just very unrewarding. If this was just a general whiff punish lethal or something, I would be like okay, but it's too specific and the move just sucks at stepping.

1A+B: The idea of pushing someone to a high guard crush and then getting constant rewards for high crushing is great in theory. Except, Talim isn't the best at dealing guard damage. More so, if you know how to RE stuff, she is the best character for HEALING guard damage, because she hits so many times. The reward is decent at least.

WNF B: I mean... you were going to explode them anyway and get a combo after the crush. I admittedly haven't tested this lethal too much, since I find it not to be the most practical thing to break guard with. Still, not great.

66B: Would be great... in theory. If it were as fast as Sophie's. However, not at all.

3A+B: While I don't think this is terrible, as I do think 3A+B is an okay normal on it's own, at the range Talim would be using this move, she is in range of so many characters' far faster moves, so hitting this is just inpractical.

Low-life Running K: Well... if your super doesn't HEAL you out of range of this lethal, you do get a nice mix-up as you run in...

--

Am I missing one? I can't remember. But yeah, her lethals just seem so bizarre to me. Again, I don't think every character needs to be built around lethals, but hers just seem specifically underwhelming, not only the move choices, the lethal hit conditions, but also the rewards given for each.

I don't think just because two characters share a similar move, that they should be identical -- I hate that stuff. Too many fighters try for the homogeneous crap these days. That said, I've been playing Sophie a bit, and boy, her lethals just make... so much sense. Her whiff punish is fast enough to actually do it, and stems from a 8-way run in the three back directions, ones you would likely be doing if you made something whiff. She can react to highs and easily do 236K to get a lethal. Her equivalent to Talim's 66B does 40 damage just as a poke, is 18i instead of 22i and reaches further in a faster amount of time.
 
@Skiegh
I'd have to say her best LHs are-

6(A+B): Good for punishing obvious big swings and most character's REs. You can also use it to punish Ivy's Summon Suffering and her other command throw after ducking. Leads to at least 93 damage.

A+B and 236(B): Both are good against people who try to GI a lot and get about 90 damage each.

44B: Not exactly as a LH, but as you mentioned, an all around good move. If you react correctly you get as much damage as Wind Cannon would normally do.

WNF B:B : Best used after Guard Crushing with WNS (B), 66A+B~4, AAB(B), 2(A+B), or 8B at max range. There is some variance in damage on WNF B:B depending on what move you used to Guard Crush, but at max damage LH WNF B:B alone does 95 damage.
 
Skiegh said:
Anyone else feel like Talim's lethal hits are just... not great? I don't think every character needs to be pumping out lethals all day, but hers are so arbitrary and just not very useful, especially not reactively. I feel like you have to be specifically going for one -- and not in a natural way, like a "I really want to hit this" sort of way. When you would be better served doing other things.

44B: Not a reactive low crush, but certainly a good one, especially since it's on a move which is all around one of her best normals.

6(A+B): The... mildly useful one. It leads to good reward, but it's very slow, so actually punishing a whiff with it is somewhat of a miracle.

A+B: Universally rewarding for everyone, Talim's is no different.

BT A+B: A nice scare tactic, but in most situations, people are either going to be ducking this move or blocking it. Good newb trap lethal though.

44A: If this were a 2D game, or a game without weapons, this might be a useful whiff punishment tool for hitting an extended hurtbox against a long range move. However, this is a game with swords, so when the HELL are you going to be able to hit someone's body with this move after a whiffed high except against another Talim? Also the reward is garbage.

WNC~K: If WNC actually worked against verticals, maybe this might be useful. However, you get MORE damage going for WNC~B~B into an air combo I think. It's just very unrewarding. If this was just a general whiff punish lethal or something, I would be like okay, but it's too specific and the move just sucks at stepping.

1A+B: The idea of pushing someone to a high guard crush and then getting constant rewards for high crushing is great in theory. Except, Talim isn't the best at dealing guard damage. More so, if you know how to RE stuff, she is the best character for HEALING guard damage, because she hits so many times. The reward is decent at least.

WNF B: I mean... you were going to explode them anyway and get a combo after the crush. I admittedly haven't tested this lethal too much, since I find it not to be the most practical thing to break guard with. Still, not great.

66B: Would be great... in theory. If it were as fast as Sophie's. However, not at all.

3A+B: While I don't think this is terrible, as I do think 3A+B is an okay normal on it's own, at the range Talim would be using this move, she is in range of so many characters' far faster moves, so hitting this is just inpractical.

Low-life Running K: Well... if your super doesn't HEAL you out of range of this lethal, you do get a nice mix-up as you run in...

--

Am I missing one? I can't remember. But yeah, her lethals just seem so bizarre to me. Again, I don't think every character needs to be built around lethals, but hers just seem specifically underwhelming, not only the move choices, the lethal hit conditions, but also the rewards given for each.

I don't think just because two characters share a similar move, that they should be identical -- I hate that stuff. Too many fighters try for the homogeneous crap these days. That said, I've been playing Sophie a bit, and boy, her lethals just make... so much sense. Her whiff punish is fast enough to actually do it, and stems from a 8-way run in the three back directions, ones you would likely be doing if you made something whiff. She can react to highs and easily do 236K to get a lethal. Her equivalent to Talim's 66B does 40 damage just as a poke, is 18i instead of 22i and reaches further in a faster amount of time.
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I actually agree with most of this. Talim's LHs feel more like, "bonuses". 3A+B for example SHOULD have been like a step killing LH. But because in previous Caliburs, her 3A+B whiffing the first hit made the move less useful, they decided to "throw her a bone" with the LH property.

The best Lethals she has going for her, are 6(A+B), (which is, imo, her best one), and WNF BB post guard crush. 1A+B, as you said, WOULD be amazing, if Talim was stronger at guard damage. She actually has 2 Guard Gauge bonus lethals. 1A+B and Cannon. Which leads you to think she should be a guard damage machine. (As I posted in the Guard Crush thread). And she's not bad at it, but compared to others, far from the best at it.

I also think these evasion Lethals are just flawed at the core. 44B for example is supposed to LH vs low attacks, but because a lot of lows have followup strings or are very long like Groh's stance A low, you end up getting counterhits instead of Lethal hits. Same with WNC K. If you dodge a vertical and connect with the kick and they mashed out a followup hit, you just get CH dmg.

Her LHs and also, imo, her Soul Charge buffs aren't very abuseable like a lot of characters, but rather, they give you a little extra punch for playing normally.

Also 44A would be a MUCH better LH if they didn't nerf the startup to be so slow.
 
Thylacine492 said:
@Skiegh
I'd have to say her best LHs are-

6(A+B): Good for punishing obvious big swings and most character's REs. You can also use it to punish Ivy's Summon Suffering and her other command throw after ducking. Leads to at least 93 damage.

A+B and 236(B): Both are good against people who try to GI a lot and get about 90 damage each.
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236(B) is worthless imo. The best place to use it would be post-GI but people are exploiting the RE-as-post-GI mechanic and it makes this move nonexistant. A+B is not good for post-GI Lethals anymore either, with this new exploit.
 
I kind of dont like soul charging anymore unless I have them in a corner, I just don't like having to guess how to get back in on them after I got there. Maybe I should start using it at the end of combos when they're downed already or something...
 
Phoenix1985gr said:
whats the exploit? and why doesn't A+B work?
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You can RE after being Gi'd. So if Talim does A+B while they're holding down the RE button, they can just... let go before A+B hits giving Talim a CH instead of a LH. You still get some damage, but you can't combo off it
 
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