Talim in SCVI: Move Study & Analysis

ZeroEffect317 said:
Even if all of this is true, why program the knockdown at all? I can't imagine that's intentional if it's not consistent with the 3rd hit connecting by itself
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The whole concept of a standing stun that perpetuates beyond a single hit is pretty unique to me as far as fighting mechanics go. Far as my testing can tell, every hit during a stun counts as a counter hit, but seems to very slightly deplete the stun length. I need way more testing on this, and there might be better characters for it, but testing similar combos like...

BT B, 4B(a), AAB -- works

but...

4B~whiff~(A), BT B, 4B(a) -- will connect, but the last half-charged version of 4B(a) will connect just as the stun is leaving, despite this normally being a NCC. So this would mean there is some level of deteriorating stun duration per stun induced. Although there might also be some sort of arbitrary limitation on inducing the same stun with the same move multiple times. I do think I need to test this with a character with more stun avenues.

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Testing FC 3BB again, I have further insight, which upon my minor (and admittedly not at all full proof testing of stun), I think I generally know what the devs were thinking, but why it has to induce knockdown I'm not too sure. It might have something to due with the initial stun being more important than the later ones. Anyways...

Skipping over the first 3B in the 3BB sequence, I am specifically only going to be talking about the second B button press.

It contains three hits, two of which are using the same move value, and thus can only hit once. The hits are...

1) 6 damage: Stun: knockdown -10
2) 10 damage: Stun: standing launch +8 (With stance cancels, this allows for combos)
3) 12 damage: Stun: standing launch +8

The 6 damage hit, seems to morph into a 12 damage attack in later frames, likely to give more reward for hitting with just one hit of the move. The 6 damage hit is actually the first hit of the move, which might explain the whole stun fiasco. I would wager the first stun is induced entirely to either decrease the duration of the stun, OR if the same type of stun cannot be inflicted multiple times by the same move, this might be their quick solution to stop this move from not stunning correctly.

In the end, what is to blame is the 6 damage hit lasting too long, and the 10 damage hit being her left arm swing which doesn't reach as far. That said, if my theory is correct and if this inducing the same stun does result in improperly gained stun if you connect with both hits, then that is a bit trickier for the devs to fix. Doesn't seem too hard though.

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If anyone knows a good character for stuns and basic combo routes for them, let me know.
 
There has always been some kind of limiter on same stuns to my knowledge. You can't use the same type of stun more than once per combo. That's why the whiffed 4B in the 4B(A) hold combo doesn't give you a second 4B(A) re-stun.

But this still strikes me as unintended with the falling over. Since when is that ever supposed to happen? It's only happening with the one hit from FC 3BB, so there's no same-stun limiter causing it. I'td be different if EVERY time you only hit with the 3rd part they fall over. But since it's ONLY in the initial frames, it seems strange.

I guess in the end it shouldn't cost you many important sets, but it may creep up when you don't want it to.
 
Is not the second hit of WC A that same stun? Could be a limited to prevent a prolonged stun state?

Also, had anyone noticed the unique stun state the second hit of 44k gives?
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
Is not the second hit of WC A that same stun? Could be a limited to prevent a prolonged stun state?

Also, had anyone noticed the unique stun state the second hit of 44k gives?
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They fall over from the one hit of FC 3BB by itself, so it'd be impossible for that to be the reason. And even if so, you can land WC AB afterwards... sometimes...
 
I think the 2nd bit of FC3BB is the same stun as the 2nd hit if WC A. It’s done to prevent Talim from getting even longer combos.
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
I think the 2nd bit of FC3BB is the same stun as the 2nd hit if WC A. It’s done to prevent Talim from getting even longer combos.
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I understood what you meant. I was saying that if that's the case, why does it still work sometimes?
As for 44K, you can get BT 2K if they don't tech back. But there's really no harm in teching back at that range.
 
What are some moves that you wish had lethal hit properties?

Example 22_88A being a step counter lethal hit, making 22_88A WNS (B) WF K a combo or something.


22_88K being a sucessful dodge lethal hit would be nice, giving like 4B(A) or something.


I feel like 3A+B, WR K, and even to an extent WNC K are all kinda useless lethal hits and aren't really that great when they come out. I really wonder why they were even chosen.

44B is also kinda situational, with 236B, bt A+B, and Air Cannon being the ones I get off the most.

I've yet to use 6A+B correctly, and 66B comes out at a decent rate but doesn't really give much to follow up on.
 
I'd want for 8B to be change to a mid and be given 44B's LH properties but with it knocking the opponent into the air.

Maybe give LH to one of her non-WR K lows? Like give a reason as to why 1B has such bad frames.

My most used are 6(A+B), BT A+B, A+B, and WNC K. The last of which isn't particularly useful outside of being a TC that I occasionally get a LH off of.

As for 66B, use LH 66B~*dash forward*~WNC (K)~4B(A) *partial charge*~BT A,A,B for around 90 damage.
 
Applying lethals to moves my choice always seems broken in my head.

Like...

Fuzzieviking said:
Example 22_88A being a step counter lethal hit, making 22_88A WNS (B) WF K a combo or something.
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22A is such a godly move, even if it's nerfed compared to some other Talim versions. Yet it's still very good, if it lethaled on counter (which it ALWAYS hits counterhit), I would get that so often. Is that a bad thing? I dunno. Seems like it would be too strong.

Thylacine492 said:
I'd want for 8B to be change to a mid and be given 44B's LH properties but with it knocking the opponent into the air.
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I feel like you'd have to change 8B a bit to give it a lethal like that, it would be soooo broken if it was mid, low crushed, lethaled and was +2 on block. That move is already in my top 3 moves as the game moves forward. Feel like that would just be crazy go nuts. I generally prefer it being +2, which I think it wouldn't be allowed to be if it were a mid.

It does already combo on hit, so I generally don't feel like it needs a lethal. I use it way too much, shit is amazing.

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I've already gone over my thoughts on her lethals. If I was going to change existing lethals or add new ones, it might be something like...


66B : Changed to lethal on whiff punish (could even just be against high attacks, if you wanna be super balanced). I don't know about you guys, but I whiff punish with 66B all the time. When it comes to backsteps, at the range you would even hit with 66B on a backstep, you're better off going for a counterhit 6B which does more damage anyway.

WNC A+B: Lethal on opponent who is stand blocking. This move already does high damage and is... 0(?) on block, but it has a long wind up, especially due to have to WNC in the first place, making the effect startup for this move in the 50+ frames. Of course, you could put this on any of her lows and it would be good. This would be even more useful on just her 1A or something, to give her more threat on her non-stance game.

22_88K: I do like what @Fuzzieviking said. I don't know if the game can discern a dodge or not. I don't use this move too often, but maybe make it a lethal upon hitting the opponent's side? Evasion-based lethals would fit with the character;s theme.

Trying to think of moves that don't see a lot of use out of me that might be useful if they had a lethal...

4A+B: Maybe lethal on counter. This move is slowly starting to see some mild use out of me. It's a pretty quick -- albeit minor -- backswing blow, so you can step out of range of someone's A and usually hit between the 2nd A. Still wouldn't be great with a lethal, but at least more usable.

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I'll think of more. Trying not to be too broken about it, haha.
 
The speculation continues. I actually don't like any of the lethal hit bonuses you're all mentioning, because the move properties are the issue. Reversal edge post GI makes 236B charge and A+B pretty weak. If the former guard crushed when charged and the latter were faster and better advantage on guard, I think a lot of her game would tie together. I'm most disappointed by her lack of a back turned game. She has poor ways of entering it. 2_8B+K should leave her in back turned or front turned based on an additional G input.

Yeah, her lethal hits suck. THEY ALL SUCK except BT A+B. I
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
The speculation continues. I actually don't like any of the lethal hit bonuses you're all mentioning, because the move properties are the issue. Reversal edge post GI makes 236B charge and A+B pretty weak. If the former guard crushed when charged and the latter were faster and better advantage on guard, I think a lot of her game would tie together. I'm most disappointed by her lack of a back turned game. She has poor ways of entering it. 2_8B+K should leave her in back turned or front turned based on an additional G input.

Yeah, her lethal hits suck. THEY ALL SUCK except BT A+B. I
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Nahh. 44B is good it just has a flaw with not registering as LH if people mash followups. 6(A+B) I will live and die by that move. If you know your MUs and what to whiff punish with this, it's easily one of the better LHs in the game. Hell it's guaranteed vs most stepped REs.

1A+B is decent too were it not for the requirement of red guard gauge. But when you do get them red, this becomes a better 236B. Wind Cannon post guard burst is good too if you know which moves to break with. Tons of damage.
 
I've been wondering about a couple of things. One is using RE cancelling during SC, the other is looking for ways to put people at the right distance for 3A+B to Lethal Hit.

Seems like using 66K and then BT A+B at the lowest point of their fall put them in that sweet spot for 3A+B if they try to get up and step. Not a tech trap since it's high, but maybe a "don't move" trap?
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
The speculation continues. I actually don't like any of the lethal hit bonuses you're all mentioning, because the move properties are the issue.
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Well, I could easily make a list of how her lethals COULD have looked, but she might be just a bit too good. I'll do that later. For now, I bring mild tech!

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I remember when I first started everyone told me 1B was bad so I just never bothered even using it. Looking at it more, I think I'm starting to understand what it's purpose is. For one, it's +0 on hit (not the -1 people told me), and is also very plus on counter hit. This essentially turns it into her best "unreactable" low in terms of granting advantage.

Then the problem came to figuring out how to deal with the woes of a +0 advantage. People will often try their fastest card in such situations, but that's when I discovered the purpose of her while rising B. The result was this...


This made me realize that Talim actually has A LOT of situations where she is put at +0, and quite a few where she is also crouching. That's when I finally understood the purpose of while rising B, and that I think it is built specifically for this. To stop people from jumping onto their fastest move (2a) in response to those situations. Neat design.

Going to do more tinkering with this amongst the cast. Also going to try using 1B more as a whole to see how it functions in play. Up to this point I never used it besides for a couple combo extensions for grounded opponents.
 
Skiegh said:
Well, I could easily make a list of how her lethals COULD have looked, but she might be just a bit too good. I'll do that later. For now, I bring mild tech!

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I remember when I first started everyone told me 1B was bad so I just never bothered even using it. Looking at it more, I think I'm starting to understand what it's purpose is. For one, it's +0 on hit (not the -1 people told me), and is also very plus on counter hit. This essentially turns it into her best "unreactable" low in terms of granting advantage.

Then the problem came to figuring out how to deal with the woes of a +0 advantage. People will often try their fastest card in such situations, but that's when I discovered the purpose of her while rising B. The result was this...


This made me realize that Talim actually has A LOT of situations where she is put at +0, and quite a few where she is also crouching. That's when I finally understood the purpose of while rising B, and that I think it is built specifically for this. To stop people from jumping onto their fastest move (2a) in response to those situations. Neat design.

Going to do more tinkering with this amongst the cast. Also going to try using 1B more as a whole to see how it functions in play. Up to this point I never used it besides for a couple combo extensions for grounded opponents.
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Good find. I wasn't aware that you got so much advantage off the clash. Though it would only work vs i12 horis, it does seem like a good counter to mashed 2As here.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Good find. I wasn't aware that you got so much advantage off the clash. Though it would only work vs i12 horis, it does seem like a good counter to mashed 2As here.
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Yeah, I was surprised by the advantage as well, but it's pretty huge. I'm sure it varies by move recovery, but landing a 22i is quite a lot already. Tinkering more with clashes, I think the real purpose of 4B(A) -- the full charge -- finally is revealed. It is a hit-confirmable clash punish.


If they hold guard after this combo you get a guaranteed side throw which is nice. Was really hoping for a back throw, but that would be one hell of a sequence.
 
Skiegh said:
Yeah, I was surprised by the advantage as well, but it's pretty huge. I'm sure it varies by move recovery, but landing a 22i is quite a lot already. Tinkering more with clashes, I think the real purpose of 4B(A) -- the full charge -- finally is revealed. It is a hit-confirmable clash punish.


If they hold guard after this combo you get a guaranteed side throw which is nice. Was really hoping for a back throw, but that would be one hell of a sequence.
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Hmmm... That 4B(A) sequence is far less likely under match pressure I feel.
Just the fact that when I'm throwing out 4B, I'm looking for it to hit or CH. If it doesn't, I can cancel with G. So the clash might be hard to react to before letting the 2nd hit go or cancelling it with G.

The 4BB at the end though is good though. 4BB 2nd hit is major advantage. You can also do WNS (K)~4BB after the BT B in that combo.
 
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