The Great Player Vs Character Debate: SCV Edition

In SCV is it more about the PLAYER or the CHARACTER?

  • It's always more about the PLAYER.

    Votes: 36 57.1%

  • The CHARACTER used always plays a bigger factor.

    Votes: 4 6.3%

  • It can be EITHER depending on the character matchup.

    Votes: 23 36.5%
  • Total voters
    63
When we played casuals RTD did tell me he knew how Aeon worked and that he knows how to fight him. Clearly my wins against him were all flukes.
 
Reptile said:
When we played casuals RTD did tell me he knew how Aeon worked and that he knows how to fight him. Clearly my wins against him were all flukes.
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I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't have won. Besides, as the winner, you earned the right to not have to prove anything to anyone. A win is a win, right?

Anyway, there is a point at this game where high level play is reached. When any two high level players fight, both of them have a chance to win a tournament set. There isn't anyone who is just miles ahead of the rest in terms of skill. If we understand this, then what makes the difference? Well, endurance for the most part. Who can keep composed the longest. You know how to break someone's composure? Overwhelming tools and Damage.

Oof, I believe you should make it clear what you're talking about in terms of high-level vs high-level. Otherwise you'll get arguments about how an A-Level Raphael can dominate a C-level Cervantes.
 
I can't believe some of the responses I'm seeing here, even from high level players. SCV is a very balanced game. Every move, strategy and tactic has a way around it. Because of that it is ALWAYS more about the player. If someone uses a character with a move that the opponent feels is "cheap", it's not the character and the "cheap" move that is the issue, it's the opponent as a PLAYER who's at fault for lacking the ability to deal with it and get around it.

It's as simple as that. After all, without the player what is the character but an idle puppet?
 
OOFMATIC said:
I can't believe some of the responses I'm seeing here, even from high level players. SCV is a very balanced game. Every move, strategy and tactic has a way around it. Because of that it is ALWAYS more about the player. If someone uses a character with a move that the opponent feels is "cheap", it's not the character and the "cheap" move that is the issue, it's the opponent as a PLAYER who's at fault for lacking the ability to deal with it and get around it.

It's as simple as that. After all, without the player what is the character but an idle puppet?
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What SC5 did that was different from it's predecessors is increase the number of "important points of decision" a player must make at a given time that they simply didn't have to factor in before, especially on defense. The main point of contention I think is that characters of course get uneven rewards from commonly occurring situations. They may not be all that different from one another in terms of the reward, but the difference *does* add up. The sum of those differences is what creates the character difference, and just as a 1% difference over time will show, it will show up in the game eventually too.

I'm not asking for a better balanced game, either. I think the balance-to-uniqueness ratio is excellent in SC5. I'm just saying that like in all games, characters who are better, even 1% better in situations common to winning the game, those characters will end up on top more often. It's just how it is.
 
What about two high-level players using the same character? The winning advantage comes down to the player. Yes, there are caveats but when it comes down to it - the player. My two cents.
 
I play Cervantes. He's to OP and my opinion is void.

I was going to actually post something worth a shit. But Idle beat me to it.
 
DEX wonders if he changed ppl, cause I see alot of ppl agreeing towards "It's all about player" alot. lol by now ppl would have gone off to the other side, DEX sure did have these arguments in the past, but now ppl are just agreeing or going off by past experience. DEX likes n.n
 
Death_Emperor_X said:
DEX wonders if he changed ppl, cause I see alot of ppl agreeing towards "It's all about player" alot. lol by now ppl would have gone off to the other side, DEX sure did have these arguments in the past, but now ppl are just agreeing or going off by past experience. DEX likes n.n
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***DISCLAIMER: no sarcasm, trolling, rage, negativity is intended in below post***

i'm assuming you're referring to your previous "100%-all-about-da-playa" post. the "player" argument is a fairly common view, but most people at least acknowledge the character aspect of it all. also, 3rd person is reserved for pocky kokoyoshi =D
 
You'll only win from a large comeback, think your good with a bad connection, or I secretly let you/see you as no REAL threat. (Giving you false hopes)
 
I think it only matters with a huge skill cap gap.I mean I wish it was always the player but I feel as if I took two machines programed to be the best they can be controlling aPat and Damp the aPat would win more. Better characters have higher skill caps and more they can LEARN to do. So yes player skill does matter but it is quite obvious that some characters are meant to be better than others for those willing to work for it.
 
DarkRhythm said:
I mean I wish it was always the player
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I used to wish this too, but I don't anymore. The effect it can have on a fighting game when you design to this can be detrimental. You would be forced to provide tons of content which only provided the illusion of actual difference. In the way it's done in SC5, despite the inequity, there is real tangible difference between the characters. One Namco game took one path, and the other took the other path. Pick your poison, I guess.
 
Just because a character is low tier doesn't mean he's weaker than a high tier character on every way. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages, and it's up to the player to capitalise on them. The low tier may get less rewards for his correct reads, but a lot of times he'll have to guess less times than the high tier, which helps balancing out.

Take Raphael for example, a character people love to underestimate. He has his strenghts too. Good movement, fast close ranged options, long ranged pokes, easy meter gain, great wall game, can block punish and whiff punish a lot more than other characters due to good combination of speed and range. If played correctly, the opponent won't put him in guessing situations often, and he'll slowly drain their health bar with pokes, spacing and punishing. And even Raph has ways to do big damage given the right circunstances.

To answer the question, it all comes down to the player, but bad matchups happen and they certainly matter. They're another variable on the match, although not as important to its outcome as player skill.
 
CappuccinoJak said:
isn't that exactly what low tier means? (though i think the "in every way" part, might change it i guess)
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It is what it means to a point. While lets say Zwei is really good at his role of confusing the enemy into traps and keeping the offense going he is not as good at this role as say Viola for instance. Yes these low tier characters are good at what they do but they are not as good at it as high tiers. There is always a character who is the best at what they do.

Now keep in mind I hate the idea of tiers because I think the entire mid tier range of characters stands a good chance against a high tier just as a low stands a good chance against a middle. I strictly believe the only difference is from the worst of the worst to the best of the best.
 
DarkRhythm said:
There is always a character who is the best at what they do.
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I'm gonna soapbox here for a moment, so spoiler tags.

But it only matters if what the character specializes in is rewarded by the game system, and by how much. Having the strongest poking game only matters if it can get you a win consistently, but given that some "strong strikes" (Lets say, Pyr 3B) get you damage on 1 successful guess more than 4 or 5 successful poking guesses, does it really matter that a character is the best poker if he cannot successfully place himself in those situations often enough for it to be equalitive?

That is the meta-balance a game should strive for- being able to place a character in his element of speciality in equal measure as all others, NOT giving characters relatively equal tools. Then you just end up with the same character with different skinsuits.
Right now SC5 is very close to a great metabalance, but there ARE still some rough edges.
 
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