the problem with sc...

SC community generally has nice people but they are sissies, that's the problem with SC.


In any case, a lot of the characters are kinda boring to play unless you are playing an opponent who is good, then it's not as dull. Just pick the characters you like and/or are the most fun for you. Movement is a huge deal in this game and completely changes the way matchups work out in practice. Good application of step G strategies and backdash canceling can give you a big edge.
 
I don't play either Tekken or Virtua Fighter as much as I do SC, so I my opinion might be worthless lol, but those two games feel very static and choppy to me, while SC feels much more fluid, and the 8way movement has a lot to do with that I think. It seems to me there is a greater ability to play mind games in SC just based on the spacing of your character as well.

Regardless of balance there is a lot of variety to the play styles in SC with some wiggle room to play one character quite a bit differently from someone else.

The only real complaint I have is that yes SCIV is slower paced than it's predecessor's, but that's not really a big deal to me. Overall the Soul team released a quality product that I am quite satisfied with. They seem to have listened to all the complaints from SC3 and done there best to rectify them, and with patches that have attempted to fix balance they seem to be dedicated to making SCIV as good as it can be. While IV is not perfect I have faith in the franchise again which is something I didn't have after 3.
 
I can't divine whether TribaL played a lot of SC2, high level or no, because he was, at the time, a state below me and not a lot of out of staters came to MI tourneys when I held them. (Only real one was Vints, and that was out of country). I'm going to assume he hasn't- I think everyone that was into that game and into the scene there can attest that character balance, options, etc. were by far at their height in that game.

TribaL did come to one SC3 tourney- he played, if I remember, Sets and Sophie. And he did well. It was early in the game's (miserable) life but he had a good understanding that got him to 2nd, before meeting my Rock in one set (Rock v. Sets 4-0) and X in another (Rock/X v. Sophie 4-.. something, I can't remember, I think I took 2 losses when TribaL figured out my Rock gimmicks.) Knowing, personally, that SC3's awful, awful system was potentially his first real taste of high level calibur sheds a lot of light on what maybe sparked this thread. For all I know I could be directly responsible for this thread- no one can accuse my SC3 Rock of being exciting, that's for damn sure.

In short, TribaL came into the community at a time when Namco took out a TON of features- good lows for everyone, shortening movelists, taking out wall options, taking out SC options, taking out a really unique and indepth oki system that can gave real offensive rewards for BOTH players- and he came in at a time of some really, really bad balance and game bugs- X/Sophie, VC.

This dosen't excuse where he's wrong (saying, for example, that there's a lack of movement in a game, hell, a series where good movement DEFINES high level play. That said, once again, SC2 movement was by far the strongest.) or excuse a ever so slight xenophobia I'm feeling towards Americans now that he's played japanese players (True story, TribaL- America dominated SC2, then fell behind a lot of the Euro countries because of how much we hated SC3 collectively. Don't hate too much, it's not like we're light years behind.) but honestly, if my introduction to the series were SC3 as well, I'd have a pretty bad taste in my mouth for the series too. It wasn't, and I know better. I just hope this puts things in a, uh... sobering light.
 
lol tribal, you ain't got shit. I'm not one of those "omg algol is broke" whiners, if you actually read my posts, you'd know why I was in favor of banning him at that time. I since then have moved on, something a lot of people like YOU seem to have trouble getting past.

Tribal, iem drunk let me say right off the batt, that ur full uv shit, I played you as far bak at Tag, with Honkey, Sdogs, Nash and everyone else, that was 10 yearz ago. If not, then whatever, the pojnt is n WAS that you ain't done shit in calibur, EVER.m It's 3pm here youll have to xcuse meh. im drunk...

what comments would you like me to keep to myself? The ones where I call your opinions, YOURS and tell you to keep them to yourself, or apply it to a useful discussion? Or the ones where I point out you are totally wrong, and then have to resort to "calling me out" and flaming me because you have nothing relavant to say about the counter points.

I like how you go on to say that this isn't a bitching thread... then go on to bitch. That is classic. If you say "SC is shallow" with those weak ass comments you made, then all I can do is assume you suck.

thx!

cha cha
 
The_Landslide said:
You strike me as one of those people who says "no offense, but" and then you insult someone's mother and somehow don't expect to be insulted back.
Click to expand...


i fuckin hate people that say "no offense but....." your about to be offended!!

yeah tribal....you started that whole post off totally wrong. you should try to not post things like that when your wasted
 
PhilBond said:
I wish we did have that, asshole. I really do.
Click to expand...

I thought that how you're supposed to decide if things get banned. Do we really expect entire communities to be completely unanimous in their opinions to make decisions?
 
Tiamat said:
SC community generally has nice people but they are sissies, that's the problem with SC.
Click to expand...

Tribal, if you would've started out like this then everyone would've just ignored what you had to say about the community.

I do feel your pain though. The stepping, 8WR, restunning CHs, and just standing up weren't done as good as in SC2 and doesn't even feel as fun.
 
ah, there we go, we get to the heart of the problem with chacha. i haven't done "shit with sc," and further he's going to try to force me to "explain myself," even though it is he who started with the harsh comments. all you're doing, cha cha, is making childish remarks while not saying anything. you're being scathing for the sake of doing so. i'm not going to answer you because there's no point. why bother making yet another long post discussing all the same things that you feel as though you "debunked" when you really didn't make all that valid of a point through all of your insults. i'm sure you have a valid point, but it was lost among the insults. then you make fun of me, again, for defending myself when i was trashed and you were the one who instigated it in the first place?

furthermore, you're going to ask me to prove what i've done in sc? i have been quietly involved in the sc community for about... 10 years of which started on guardimpact.com (remember the "tiers" that weren't actually "tiers" but a numerical comparison of how characters did against each other?), i have been to tournaments but nothing hardcore, although i had the chance to play against chi back when they were a powerhouse back in sc and sc2 (wasn't it funny how they didn't tell anyone about the g2 glitch until after nationals?). if you remember correctly cleveland did have an sc scene and i'd been on-and-off involved with it since sc1.

let's face it, sc is an easy game to get into, especially with a tekken background. having been heavily involved with tournaments for tekken, you think i wouldn't pick up on this game? i was actually happy when there was the mass exodus of tekken 4 players that moved to sc2 because there were more people to play against. before then no one really played sc in our area, and we had a large flow of talented players that laterally moved into sc and were able to pick up and play quite easily. holy hell, turnwaster's X in sc2 pissed me off. btw, i actually wrote the faq on how to perform cervy's iBT goodness; it was like a 1fs from G to the move you wanted (i think 2a and a+b were the only options you really would have gone for).

so, the fact is i'm actually a quiet veteran of this series, cha. you just didn't notice because... well, actually, you didn't need to notice. i wasn't involved with the community so that when some lame fuck came along to say "If not, then whatever, the pojnt is n WAS that you ain't done shit in calibur," i could say back "well, actually i have." i did it because i liked the game for a long time.

oh, and i already told you why i didn't respond to your earlier comments; you say "Or the ones where I point out you are totally wrong, and then have to resort to "calling me out" and flaming me because you have nothing relavant to say about the counter points." wow. i'm pretty sure i explained that i was drunk and it was 3am, so why would i waste my time trying to write some in-depth shit?

at this point, i really don't feel like carrying on with it. you did exactly what i asked everyone not to do. all i wanted was to have an intelligent conversation, and your cunt ass showed up acting like a fuckhead. you're an embarrassment to the community acting the way you do. there are quite a few people who agree with that sentiment too.

oh, and i love the new thread about people not liking 8wr.com because people here act like assholes. what would ever give people that notion? care to post in that thread cha cha, to enlighten everyone with why people could possibly think that people here are assholes?
 
tribaL said:
i think there is an underlying problem with sc. before i begin i do want to address something:

i am not whining. the vast majority of the sc community is, for lack of a better word, a group of whiners. i do not fall into this category by making this thread. i think that, overall, team soul did an excellent job with this game. it's the first iteration that truly feels... even. the character balance achieved in this game is far better than anything else they've released. yea, the game is "slower", but it's not bad and i'm certainly not insisting that it is.

then what's the problem?

the characters are... boring. not in a aesthetic "oh this character looks lame," but in how everyone plays the characters. it seems as though that the character's options have been stripped-down in this iteration. there are moves that are bad, moves that are ok, and moves that are great, of which every character possesses. the problem therein lies that everyone tends to focus on these "great" moves. in turn, everyone tends to play the characters essentially the same way. at that point the only differentiation comes in overall utilization and defense.
QUOTE]


No offense, but you said your not a whiner, and then you go on to whine about something about the game that displeases you. Furthermore, does it really matter how well the "movement aspect" is. I thought it was more important to evade/defend and cause more damage to the opponent, than it was to pay attention to how someone steps. Maybe I'm just not looking at the game from the correct angle, but if players do not necessarily deem these "deep" stepping options has effective, why should they be used, if they are effective, but create openings then they can be disadvantageous.

If you could give a deeper explanation of the stepping options and how they can be used then I'd be willing to test it myself. However, you were kind of vague except for angel step, and voldo/yoshi.
Click to expand...
 
It is extremely important to look at how your opponent steps. That's all I'll say in this thread, its turning into a shitball rolling down a hill at this point :-/
 
Yea yea Tribal, I feel bad because everyone doesn't like me, boo hoo. I posted exactly in kind to the remarks you made. But hey, try and make me look like the bad guy all you want, it's easier that way.

How about not post up quasi-inflamatory remarks then expect people not to lash back at your weak points next time?

I love when people use being drunk, or being high as an excuse for posting like a moron. At least when I'm an "asshole" to people I don't hide behind excuses to save face.

peace out weak ass thread.

cha cha
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
Yea yea Tribal, I feel bad because everyone doesn't like me, boo hoo. I posted exactly in kind to the remarks you made. But hey, try and make me look like the bad guy all you want, it's easier that way.

How about not post up quasi-inflamatory remarks then expect people not to lash back at your weak points next time?

I love when people use being drunk, or being high as an excuse for posting like a moron. At least when I'm an "asshole" to people I don't hide behind excuses to save face.

peace out weak ass thread.

cha cha
Click to expand...

yea, i could have been more tactful, and yea, i was drunk. no, it's not a good excuse. i agree 100%. two wrongs, unfortunately, do not make a right. i'm going to apologize for having that little paragraph as it wasn't necessary to my thread and i really wanted to discuss the true point of the topic at length, however it was lost on most people because of that paragraph and all everyone could do was focus on that. that's sad given that it was only that one paragraph and the rest of the post was completely free of pointing anyone out or continuing to harp.

that being said, it doesn't change my opinion of the community at large here. while, as i stated, it wasn't necessary to this thread, it doesn't mean it's not true. i'm thinking the reason why i put that in there in the first place was to separate myself from that part of the community that is like "omg i don't like this... ban this," of which is all too common here and i don't agree with at all. the purpose of the thread was intended to discuss this particular point and garner thoughts, not promote flaming. bottom line: if you didn't think the comment was directed to you then you didn't need to be offended. if you viewed yourself as being one of those "whiners" only then would you have felt insulted.

now, where was i...
 
You say the community is full of whiners, but so far this thread is full of members defending SCIV, as opposed to whining about the games problems.
 
tribaL

For all you know, there are movement types in SC that YOU just don't know about, and people haven't shared.

Just wanna keep your eyes open
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
I don't even know where to begin with this. Here you go again with this "everyone" BS. Soooooo, every character can be played the same? All good players are forced to play them the same?
Please tell me how to play Tira the same as Astaroth! Ohoh~ and tell me how to play Nightmare the same as Maxi!!! I know, I know, you certainly hit the nail on the head, NO OTHER fighting games has people who tend to focus on good moves only, ESPECIALLY not tekken, lolol, can you be serious?
SC has to be the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you described. Not only can EVERY character be played with varying styles and options, but MOST players play one character completely different from another person using them at that level.
But since you gave so many fine examples of what you meant I'll just leave it at that.
Click to expand...

you entirely missed the point here. i wasn't saying that you can play different characters the same way, i said most people play the same characters the same way. same setups, same basic moves... no wonder you were so angry with me, you completely missed the point i was trying to make from the very beginning.




LOL, Tribal, I know your name from Tekken, like 10 years ago. All the places I have been and tournies I have been to, and I haven't seen you play SC once. You appear to have an excruciatingly huge bias for tekken... You are suggesting because of haha step and wave dashing, Tekken characters can all be played with varying styles of movement that can change the dynamics of the game... WHEN MORE movement options exist in SC!

i disagree. oh, and i'm not longer a fan of tekken. tekken 6 is a terrible game for the very reason i made this thread in regards to sc. tekken has literally made pokes a non-factor and juggle launchers, and juggles, entirely too effective. so to say i'm biased is incorrect. i was, however, comparing the older tekken games to sc.

1- haha step and wave dash ect are CHARACTER specific, it's not like ANYONE can haha step or wavedash/lightdash, so wtf are you getting at?

again, you missed the point. i was saying that the "same character can be played differently." you can have two lei players who play lei entirely differently due to having the option o haha stepping and actually using it. the same can be said of two mishima players where only one uses ld'ing/wd'ing.

2- You go on to describe Sophie's angel step next, but MORE characters in SC have movement options that can vary their game than Tekken or any other game:
Sophie/Cassy- dashes both have different properties and unique abilities, and remember Cassy also has a retreat dash that auto parries into free damage or as whif bait.
Voldo- mantis, landfish and all of his movement options give a voldo player MAD varying ways to play.
Talim- she has SEVERAL retreat and advancing leaps, twirls and flips that can be canceled into moves or used as a varying movement options for mad mind games.
Taki- windroll and stalker, yea THOSE don't give me any unique movement options >.>
Setsuka- HAS A WAVEDASH that can be canceled out of and a A+K forward leap that gives her many options.
Yoshi- teleport, stances with movement options, dragonfly/super dragonfly.... more options than he even had in tekken, hell he can even WALK in pogo.
Yun- has a crouch dash that can be canceled into moves and has retreat options out of it.
Apprentice- has stalker like flips to add a keep away aspect to his game and improve positioning.
Amy- has stances that advance her or can be canceled into moves similar to a crouch dash
Xianghua - has MANY moves that auto evade, sidestep, advance and retreat, ANY player playing her can chose from a veritable CORNUCOPIA of options to play her with uniquely.
the list can go on and on.

firstly, i was talking about movement, not actual attacks that evade. the best example i can give is x's 66a+b~g. that was a cancel that actually turns into a kind of movement. i also addressed the point of characters having these options, but rarely are they used as they have effective enough options that don't require them being used. yoshi is the only example that i'll agree with in that he can be played very uniquely.

SAYS YOU! Dude, name a fucking game where a character who has many good tools available to them, but a few of them are REALLY good, so most players tend to gravitate to them, DOESN'T exist?

didn't i already say that it was an issue of movement? i even said out-right that all games are guilty of this to a point, so why would you take what i clearly said and somehow turn it against me?

This is all your opinion here, you say things happen very rarely, based on what? YOUR spectrum of play?
Oh wait, you live in japan now right? So this is your typical "I have witnessed japanese players who are good play, all other countries suck compared tot hem, I now look down on players I used to play with"??

wtf? i'm not at all insisting that. i've played against great players in america too, but not in sc4. i have, however, played against them in sc1-3. get the idea of xenophobia out of your head, please and thank you.

Trust me man, wherever you live, you are forced to make OPINIONS based on what is around you. The thing is is that MOST players realize this, and don't feel the need to post up their opinions for everyone to see, especially condemning their community's favorite game, simply because you find it boring.

i'm not condemning the game in the least bit. i still enjoy the game, and i never said i didn't. people have a tendency of falling into tedium and using the same moves in the same setups because it works. a lot of people that i have played against do this both in america and japan. please stop insisting that i'm somehow saying i hate this game, because i love it. it's fun for me. when it becomes "not fun," is because of what i already discussed about people using the same moves with the same characters over and over again.


I have seen plenty of offensive strategies in competitive play, both offense and defense in SC can be equally gratifying, especially when it comes to SC's rich oki game, the mind games applied to both offense and defense are second to none, IN MY OPINION.

i agree to a point. i wouldn't say sc is second to none. i mean, really, if you want really hardcore mindgames, look no further than virtua fighter. of which, also, is a game i don't like, but i'm not above admitting that it's "richer" than sc, and other fighting games, in this respect.

Oh here we go. So you play against some foreign players whom you deem truly great. Heck they probably are great. Then... Then you go into a holier than thou rant about how you never felt challenged before this, and how great you win rate is?

didn't i say that how much i win isn't saying much? i was down playing it to avoid the thought that "tribaL is a scrub and can't win," but to not come off as "omg, tribaL thinks he's so good." there's no real "polite" way of saying that, but i certainly wasn't attempting to come off as that in the least bit.

Bro, who the funk have you played to give you the right? I haven't seen you place in any tournament, or even play outside of Ohio. It's all fine and good you moved somewhere, but if you were truly good at SC, someone woulda known about it by now.

again, i wasn't insisting i was good. secondly, as i said before, i was involved with the cleveland sc community quite a bit. the whole reason why i got into sc in the first place was because fetz spanked me in sc1 way back in the day. if you remember correctly he was "pretty good" at sc (an understatement). my reasoning for not getting involved in more out-of-state tournaments was simply because i had already passed that phase of my life. once i got into college i essentially stopped going to tournaments except for the occasional here and there; actually, i went to the same number of sc tournaments as i did tekken tournaments (2 of each). the only difference was that the tekken tournaments (the e tournaments) were a helluva lot larger than the much much smaller sc tournaments that i went to.

I have a great win rate in my area? You know why? Because before recently, my area was comprised of scrubs. I win just about everything in MY region, then do mediocre when I travel, because I don't have good enough competition to push me to better my flaws.
Doesn't give me the right to assume the game is good/poor/shallow because I have a limited basis for comparison, and then go out and get my ass kicked by some 'truly' good players, or even when I do well against a truly good player, I don't feel like "wow this game is shallow because I was able to beat someone good with a limited tool set". That is all based on experience, no one I see plays any character the same, cept maybe Amy. Someone may not be used to the tactics you use, so it gives you the upper hand.

this is the problem... you're looking too much into a small comment and ignoring the main point. please read: "i'm certainly not saying i'm this amazing player that never loses (i win more than i lose by far, but that's really not saying much and i'm not chest-beating over it)": the point? most people who play online aren't very good; scrubs, button mashers, etc. that was my purpose in saying that.

So please explain to me how SC is shallow? It's movement, vast array options for EVERY character, terrain control, wake up mind games, GI system and balance make it one of the THE most complete fighters out there. If that is NOT your opinion, all I can do is respect your opinion for what it is... and opinion, uninformed at best.

you missed the point of why i made this thread and didn't correctly respond to anything i said.

My question to you is, why the hell should anyone care what your opinion is? Why make a thread about it?

obviously, you cared enough.
 
Jaxel said:
TribaL... I'm gonna have to disagree with a lot you said... while yes, the vast majority of this community is a bunch of whiners (me being one of them); is it really the community's fault? Namco has been continually releasing shitty games over and over again (not just fighting games) and giving all of their fans reasons to whine. Soulcalibur 3 was a joke and Soulcalibur 4 sure has its share of issues. The difference is that for the vast majority of the community, SC4 is fun enough to overcome its issues; while SC3 was not.

SC4 does not feel "even" and this "balance" thing you talk about is still a myth. While you wont see people place in tournaments with Talim, Rock, or Mina in SC4; you did occasionally see people win tournaments with Yunseong, Raph and Maxi in SC2. The thing that SC4 lacks most is "consistancy" so many moves and combos will randomly fail for some odd reason or another. Not to mention the buffer system which is a complete travesty in comparison to SC2.

While yes, everyone has a bunch of moves, and every move has its own pros and cons, its never as simple as that. If a move simply has no negatives, it brings imbalance to the moveset... the same goes for moves with no positives. As well, pros and cons aren't just about the move; but how the move works with the character's remaining moveset. If a character has an amazing move, but there is no possible way to get it to work as a mixup; then the move sucks.

As for movement though... completely agree with you... the movement in SC2 was so much better. Hell, the movement in Virtua Fighter 5 is better; and VF is the stiffest out there. As for defense being boring though? Absolutely true. Watch some high level fights in SC2; while to us its amazing, to the fast majority of players out there, its a sad roachy turtle fest. As for SC4 being shallow? I guess I can understand that... theoretically you can win simply by blocking and doing safe pokes.
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to be honest, this was the best post in this thread. that's not ass kissing either (i totally disagree with jaxel about a lot of sc-related issues). he covered everything i said and he wasn't pissed off about it.

anyways: yea, fetz won regionals with yun in sc2 if i remember correctly. there are two ways to look at this: that most characters in sc4 are being pushed aside because people have already given up trying to win with them so they're not trying (maxi community, i'm looking at you on that one ^_^). if anything, this further proves my point of not having to flesh characters out more. if a good voldo can beat maxi without having to use most of his movelist, then what's the point of using it at all? in the same respect, maybe maxi's multitude of stances have been hurt so badly that people can't help but feel the need to use them sparingly and focus simply on his more basic options. personally, i think one character that's really being overlooked now is rock. i don't think he's as bad as people insist that he is. i definitely wouldn't put him in bottom tier. not because i can use him well (far from it), but because of what i've seen other people do with him.

i'm glad you see my point with where i was going at with the movement issue though.
 
KDZaster said:
tribaL

For all you know, there are movement types in SC that YOU just don't know about, and people haven't shared.

Just wanna keep your eyes open
Click to expand...

oh and i am and that's what i'm hoping for! like i said, i certainly don't dislike this game, not at all (it's actually the only game i play). i'm waiting for something to come up to really spark my interest again.

The_Landslide said:
You strike me as one of those people who says "no offense, but" and then you insult someone's mother and somehow don't expect to be insulted back.
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no, the problem is that cha cha completely missed the whole point of the thread. not only that he took everything i said in the worst possible way when there was no malicious intent.

Discoprophet said:
You say the community is full of whiners, but so far this thread is full of members defending SCIV, as opposed to whining about the games problems.
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i'm not whining. as i said, i like sc. i like it. do i need to say it again?

also, cha cha didn't defend shit because he didn't say anything. actually, if you look, there are most people who are agreeing with me about the movement, and the other people are complaining about the "whiner" comment. so, really, i don't see what you're getting at.

so, here, let me rephrase this:

"i like sc and i think it's a great game, but i feel that the movement is shallow and it could take away from the overall experience; however, it's not so shallow that it makes the game worthless and not fun, but maybe it's worth discussing."
 
A whole lot of nothing going on here...

with a bit of bitching and flaming and whining....

the problem with SC is there is not Hyper Combo Finish
 
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