A patient Pyrrha is a nightmare. Natsu can't really mount an offense without running the risk of leaving herself vulnerable. I can already tell that people are starting to understand how she works and just wait her out. She can't keep on the pressure if the opponent is good at blocking. ASZ is pretty spot on about Natsu's weaknesses.
To what extent...
- Thread starter Mojo
- Start date
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
I find it funny that people tend to base a character's overall safety on whether or not Pyrrha can punish. No sarcasm here at all, just lol.
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
Lol, ZeroEffect317, the reason is just to show how punishable Natsu *can* be. Realistically though, not everyone will punish 100% and things like that. And just sometimes, there's just ways to get around the frame data, no matter how bad it is. Also, not everyone has things to punish because of range, so this still makes her strong.
i.e., Natsu vs Natsu, AAB is -14 on block. The last B pushes out slightly on block, making it "safe". BUT, if Natsu AAB's other Natsu in the corner, defending Natsu will then be able to punish with 4B_AA_3KK.
Natsu is a very very good character, don't get me wrong.. I still believe she's high tier. But this goes to show that she might not be "Yun"stoppable (pre 2012) in that there's no risk/consequences/counters to her moveset.
-ASZ
i.e., Natsu vs Natsu, AAB is -14 on block. The last B pushes out slightly on block, making it "safe". BUT, if Natsu AAB's other Natsu in the corner, defending Natsu will then be able to punish with 4B_AA_3KK.
Natsu is a very very good character, don't get me wrong.. I still believe she's high tier. But this goes to show that she might not be "Yun"stoppable (pre 2012) in that there's no risk/consequences/counters to her moveset.
-ASZ
PartyEagle
[09] Warrior
your all forgetting that she can do BE off of PO to make her completely safe... not only that but it lets her punish you for doing the proper punish. lets say i ( a pyrrha player) blocks 66b I instinctively go for 236b4 because i KNOW it punishes it. BUT if the natsu is smart they can do 66b4 BE . what happens here is while pyrrha tries to stab her natsu teleports behind her where she can get BTPO k attack throw FOR FREE.
same goes with for her 4A+B, you can do the exact same thing.
now if she is "high tier , but not the best" you explain to me why i am punished by learning the match up? cuz i feel its complete BS .
she has the best mixup game, she has strong whiff punishes, her damage is some of the best meterlessly, the best punishment tool in the game (a:6 jf) that only she has access to at 10f, and YOU CAN'T EVEN PUNISH HER PUNISHABLE MOVES.
i love this game but dammit namco why is it that every game you make there is that one character thats reward TOO well.
same goes with for her 4A+B, you can do the exact same thing.
now if she is "high tier , but not the best" you explain to me why i am punished by learning the match up? cuz i feel its complete BS .
she has the best mixup game, she has strong whiff punishes, her damage is some of the best meterlessly, the best punishment tool in the game (a:6 jf) that only she has access to at 10f, and YOU CAN'T EVEN PUNISH HER PUNISHABLE MOVES.
i love this game but dammit namco why is it that every game you make there is that one character thats reward TOO well.
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
PO A+B+K takes 1/2 meter, she can't do that every time. Pyrrha can stab. Every. Time.
1. 66B4 PO, PO A+B+K, PO K: It's true if you stab, she'll teleport and you'll whiff. But Natsu only gets PO K, not the throw because of how 66B4 retreats.. she won't be able to teleport to the other side, unless Natsu wastes another PO A+B+K. - 1/2 meter for 18 damage.
2. 4A+B6 PO: You don't want to try to stab punish 4A+B6 PO since she's only at -3. 4A+B is stab punishable, but Natsu players will auto-PO after this move most likely.
You can punish her punishable moves.. check the previous posts for an -14. For -14 moves ending in PO, your point is valid that she can use 1/2 meter to avoid it, but that is risk that Natsu players have to take. If you just sit there and not stab, Natsu will waste her meter and try BT PO K, and you can simply step that or AA her out of it. Don't block it and try to punish BT PO K, because it's -8. You have to interrupt it/step it before the impact frames.
-ASZ
1. 66B4 PO, PO A+B+K, PO K: It's true if you stab, she'll teleport and you'll whiff. But Natsu only gets PO K, not the throw because of how 66B4 retreats.. she won't be able to teleport to the other side, unless Natsu wastes another PO A+B+K. - 1/2 meter for 18 damage.
2. 4A+B6 PO: You don't want to try to stab punish 4A+B6 PO since she's only at -3. 4A+B is stab punishable, but Natsu players will auto-PO after this move most likely.
You can punish her punishable moves.. check the previous posts for an -14. For -14 moves ending in PO, your point is valid that she can use 1/2 meter to avoid it, but that is risk that Natsu players have to take. If you just sit there and not stab, Natsu will waste her meter and try BT PO K, and you can simply step that or AA her out of it. Don't block it and try to punish BT PO K, because it's -8. You have to interrupt it/step it before the impact frames.
-ASZ
PartyEagle
[09] Warrior
ive sat and tested the 66b4PO, PO BE , PO K . she does end up behind you, for whatever reason. i have had her appear in front but either way , you get damage FOR ME PUNISHING YOU
you said it yourself, 4A+B6 is -3..... MINUS THREE. a move with waaaay too much range, guess ill have to jump it, OH WAIT she can do 4A+B B and knock me outta the sky.
and this "risk" you have to take is nothing. just for the FACT you have meter means that instead of getting a guaranteed punish i have to GUESS if you will spend the meter or not. sure i can AA BT PO K but AA doesnt punish 66b because of the push back. and thats the problem. that i have to GUESS when YOU do something unsafe.
you said it yourself, 4A+B6 is -3..... MINUS THREE. a move with waaaay too much range, guess ill have to jump it, OH WAIT she can do 4A+B B and knock me outta the sky.
and this "risk" you have to take is nothing. just for the FACT you have meter means that instead of getting a guaranteed punish i have to GUESS if you will spend the meter or not. sure i can AA BT PO K but AA doesnt punish 66b because of the push back. and thats the problem. that i have to GUESS when YOU do something unsafe.
Nightdrive27
[08] Mercenary
Theres no standing up with against Natsu. Take those hits like a man.
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
*Checks date*
"February 7th, 2012"
Computer, how long has it been since Soul Calibur 5 came out?
"Calculating...it has been approximately a week since Soul Calibur 5 was released. Would you like a more accurate computation? Perhaps to the hour, or maybe second?"
No thanks, Computer.
Ahem, guys, it's been a week. No one's OP yet, and whether or not that's going to happen at all is highly debatable. Calm this noise, and just let the game develop.
"February 7th, 2012"
Computer, how long has it been since Soul Calibur 5 came out?
"Calculating...it has been approximately a week since Soul Calibur 5 was released. Would you like a more accurate computation? Perhaps to the hour, or maybe second?"
No thanks, Computer.
Ahem, guys, it's been a week. No one's OP yet, and whether or not that's going to happen at all is highly debatable. Calm this noise, and just let the game develop.
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
Go test it again, because I've tested it and she doesn't end up getting BT PO K auto-throw because she appears in front. Anyway..
Yes, 4A+B6 PO is -3. In fact, it's her "safest" transition into PO. PO K is 10 frames (-21 on block) and her fastest move from PO. And still after blocking 4A+B6 PO, you can use an i14 move and stab her out of PO K for some reason.. so there's something iffy with the frame data/hitboxes. You're able to beat out her fastest option from PO, while she's at -3. BUT OH NO.. 1/2 METER MEANS SHE CAN STOP COUNTERS.. right?
4A+B, B is double bombs from SCIV, doesn't exist anymore. I'll assume you're talking about 4A+B, A. Natsu doesn't get free airthrow like in SCIII anymore, but this can hit you if you try to jump 4A+B. If you do 7_8_9A_B_K (TJ attack), you'll be able to hit her.. depending on how fast she cancels into the A hit. I would just block bombs in general and deal with her PO game. (Can't block bombs, free airthrows all day).
AA beats out BT PO K. I would sidestep it and launch natsu instead though.
AA does not punish 66B, but stab does, pushback or not.
I know what you mean though, other characters have it harder because they lack i14 moves that have range, to deal with Natsu's pushback. The point of this thread was to show how punishable natsu can be, and I've used Pyrrha as a primary example because she had stab, and could deal with her pushback. Other characters will have to rely on other things to punish/restrict Natsu's moveset. Hopefully I'll be able to put something together that other characters can use to punish Natsu (if they can) once I have free time, but for now.. this is all I got.
-ASZ
Yes, 4A+B6 PO is -3. In fact, it's her "safest" transition into PO. PO K is 10 frames (-21 on block) and her fastest move from PO. And still after blocking 4A+B6 PO, you can use an i14 move and stab her out of PO K for some reason.. so there's something iffy with the frame data/hitboxes. You're able to beat out her fastest option from PO, while she's at -3. BUT OH NO.. 1/2 METER MEANS SHE CAN STOP COUNTERS.. right?
4A+B, B is double bombs from SCIV, doesn't exist anymore. I'll assume you're talking about 4A+B, A. Natsu doesn't get free airthrow like in SCIII anymore, but this can hit you if you try to jump 4A+B. If you do 7_8_9A_B_K (TJ attack), you'll be able to hit her.. depending on how fast she cancels into the A hit. I would just block bombs in general and deal with her PO game. (Can't block bombs, free airthrows all day).
AA beats out BT PO K. I would sidestep it and launch natsu instead though.
AA does not punish 66B, but stab does, pushback or not.
I know what you mean though, other characters have it harder because they lack i14 moves that have range, to deal with Natsu's pushback. The point of this thread was to show how punishable natsu can be, and I've used Pyrrha as a primary example because she had stab, and could deal with her pushback. Other characters will have to rely on other things to punish/restrict Natsu's moveset. Hopefully I'll be able to put something together that other characters can use to punish Natsu (if they can) once I have free time, but for now.. this is all I got.
-ASZ
PartyEagle
[09] Warrior
nastu does go behind you if near and edge or a wall, i went and recorded it, i can upload the video if ya want proof.
and i forgot to mention this earlier but even if you dont teleport behind me , you can PO a:6JF to PUNISH ME FOR PUNISHING YOU. and iirc that leads into FC a+b 4a+b mix up correct?
and i forgot to mention this earlier but even if you dont teleport behind me , you can PO a:6JF to PUNISH ME FOR PUNISHING YOU. and iirc that leads into FC a+b 4a+b mix up correct?
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
I'll have to check if your back is near a wall or edge, but I've tested it on neutral ground. From there she just appears in front of you.
Natsu will have to commit if she's doing PO A+B+K. Most likely, it will be BT PO K because of the auto-throw from behind and it still hits (18 dmg) if they teleport in front. I don't think a Natsu player will have enough time to verify if teleport is in front/behind to make the best decision to BT PO K and/or PO A:6. BT PO K comes out slow and you can hit her out of it or step it.. Natsu also has no other good option from BT PO. Seeing a punishable move, and punishing it, however, is possible because you have more time to react. You're describing some Legendary Souls Natsu player that can read every single input lol.
Anyway, PO 6:A doesn't have anything guaranteed iirc.
-ASZ
Natsu will have to commit if she's doing PO A+B+K. Most likely, it will be BT PO K because of the auto-throw from behind and it still hits (18 dmg) if they teleport in front. I don't think a Natsu player will have enough time to verify if teleport is in front/behind to make the best decision to BT PO K and/or PO A:6. BT PO K comes out slow and you can hit her out of it or step it.. Natsu also has no other good option from BT PO. Seeing a punishable move, and punishing it, however, is possible because you have more time to react. You're describing some Legendary Souls Natsu player that can read every single input lol.
Anyway, PO 6:A doesn't have anything guaranteed iirc.
-ASZ
TaXi
[09] Warrior
protip: you can avoid an immediate 236B counterattack after 66B with hover or fake hover.
PartyEagle
[09] Warrior
this was a rhetorical question, i know for a fact you do.
btw here is me PROVING MY POINT
thanks for showing that you don't actually know your character though, come back to me when you are Red zo or Mo-tempist.
frost
[08] Mercenary
Nuts, ASZ, I was holding back on posting 66B BE second hit being high. Perhaps it's been posted somewhere before, but I was reluctant to post the information in a public forum. It's good to poke holes in our character, though. Only way to get better at matchups is to counter their counters with our own counters. The sooner we get used to metagames, the better off we are.
But yeah, 66B BE makes it so you don't even have to react to the yellow flash. Just duck after a blocked 66B: her PO transition takes quite a while to come out, you can decide to punish plain 66B with your character specific punisher while you're in blockstun and happily crouching, or you can punish 66B BE with your crouching punish of choice (I've been able to punish it with my own 66B BE).
Also, I posted some stuff in another thread about the weakness of PO BE BT PO K. As ASZ was pointing out, we have to be especially careful against an observant opponent. Even if we go with the option of least stress (2A), it shuts down most PO options except her TJ options like PO K. 2A has enough recovery to allow you to block the incoming BT PO K handily.
With that in mind, I like playing on the offense even with all these tools against her. There are several different ways to attack the opponent, and all it takes is a few mistakes from them to win you the round. Just like every other character out there, I know... But Natsu has the potential to throw her offense out at a rapidfire rate... The opponent will get fatigued eventually (hope you don't before they do), no one can keep a perfect reactionary flowchart active at all times in 60 seconds. Just make sure that you don't open yourself up to their own windows of opportunities to kill you by being predictable or only relying on the unsafe moves highlighted here.
I have a feeling, though, that JG is going to be Natsu's worst nightmare. This mechanic plays well with the patient counter punish player using any character.
But yeah, 66B BE makes it so you don't even have to react to the yellow flash. Just duck after a blocked 66B: her PO transition takes quite a while to come out, you can decide to punish plain 66B with your character specific punisher while you're in blockstun and happily crouching, or you can punish 66B BE with your crouching punish of choice (I've been able to punish it with my own 66B BE).
Also, I posted some stuff in another thread about the weakness of PO BE BT PO K. As ASZ was pointing out, we have to be especially careful against an observant opponent. Even if we go with the option of least stress (2A), it shuts down most PO options except her TJ options like PO K. 2A has enough recovery to allow you to block the incoming BT PO K handily.
With that in mind, I like playing on the offense even with all these tools against her. There are several different ways to attack the opponent, and all it takes is a few mistakes from them to win you the round. Just like every other character out there, I know... But Natsu has the potential to throw her offense out at a rapidfire rate... The opponent will get fatigued eventually (hope you don't before they do), no one can keep a perfect reactionary flowchart active at all times in 60 seconds. Just make sure that you don't open yourself up to their own windows of opportunities to kill you by being predictable or only relying on the unsafe moves highlighted here.
I have a feeling, though, that JG is going to be Natsu's worst nightmare. This mechanic plays well with the patient counter punish player using any character.
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
I never said it wasn't true. If you read, I said I tested it on neutral ground, where there is pushback, and PO A+B+K appears in front. I never doubted that at an edge (that nullifies pushback), Natsu would appear behind.
Nice insults though, now I know you're just a troll and/or just frustrated with Natsu.
-ASZ
PartyEagle
[09] Warrior
troll, no if you look at my past post you will see that i have been dedicated to helping the community.
frustrated with natsu, no i know how to beat natsu, its just a rough match.
what i am frustrated with though is players who just can't admit for whatever reason that there character is for all intents and purposes THE problem for the game atm.
if i was a natsu player and i found that i can PO BE PO A:6 a pyrrha for trying to punish 66b , id post it saying " hey guys look at this new tech that i found to force pyrrha player to be afraid. this puts the match up even more in our favor because we are taking away there best option. and thats gonna get into there heads."
i blatantly under play it because i don't want my character to get nerfed or because im tired of hearing that my character is cheap. TO HELL WITH THAT this is a competitive game , we are playing for money. she isnt gonna be patched before final round, so im gonna do my best to get that 5k pot. hell id player her straight up if i could stomach her playstyle. I'm just not naturally that aggressive.
oh on another note I completely agree with everything frost said, people need to start punishing 66b BE it was one of the first things I learned for this matchup. and most definitely agree that JG will be essential to beating natsu.
frustrated with natsu, no i know how to beat natsu, its just a rough match.
what i am frustrated with though is players who just can't admit for whatever reason that there character is for all intents and purposes THE problem for the game atm.
if i was a natsu player and i found that i can PO BE PO A:6 a pyrrha for trying to punish 66b , id post it saying " hey guys look at this new tech that i found to force pyrrha player to be afraid. this puts the match up even more in our favor because we are taking away there best option. and thats gonna get into there heads."
i blatantly under play it because i don't want my character to get nerfed or because im tired of hearing that my character is cheap. TO HELL WITH THAT this is a competitive game , we are playing for money. she isnt gonna be patched before final round, so im gonna do my best to get that 5k pot. hell id player her straight up if i could stomach her playstyle. I'm just not naturally that aggressive.
oh on another note I completely agree with everything frost said, people need to start punishing 66b BE it was one of the first things I learned for this matchup. and most definitely agree that JG will be essential to beating natsu.
AkuSokuZan
[09] Warrior
Yeah, so.. you're frustrated with Natsu in the end, lol.
Anyway, I'm for helping the community as well. That's why I'm posting what I did and ways I've found to deal with them. Also how people have punished me (Pyrrha) for using unsafe moves that I thought I could get away with. learning is how we deal with things in the end, and there's nothing wrong by sharing info. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I know EVERYTHING. I've posted what I know in my own experiences in this game so far as it has been released for what.. a week now?
It's good that you posted that Natsu could evade stab punishment in PO with A+B+K, though. That I didn't know, and it contributes to everything still. Even so, it's still meter, and even if Natsu builds meter quickly, she can't infinitely do it.
I also agree that JG will be nasty for Natsu, but we'll see how practical it is to do, because there are many variables that can affect justifying JG in a tourney situation (lag/lagless TV, every TV is different, etc). Only time will tell.
-ASZ
Anyway, I'm for helping the community as well. That's why I'm posting what I did and ways I've found to deal with them. Also how people have punished me (Pyrrha) for using unsafe moves that I thought I could get away with. learning is how we deal with things in the end, and there's nothing wrong by sharing info. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I know EVERYTHING. I've posted what I know in my own experiences in this game so far as it has been released for what.. a week now?
It's good that you posted that Natsu could evade stab punishment in PO with A+B+K, though. That I didn't know, and it contributes to everything still. Even so, it's still meter, and even if Natsu builds meter quickly, she can't infinitely do it.
I also agree that JG will be nasty for Natsu, but we'll see how practical it is to do, because there are many variables that can affect justifying JG in a tourney situation (lag/lagless TV, every TV is different, etc). Only time will tell.
-ASZ
ArcticKomodo
[11] Champion
UNSAFE AS HELL, DAWG. If she only had, Taki's a b and few other things.
Twelve
[09] Warrior
A:6 is a really good move, but it has its problems. It's very short-ranged for one. Lots of things can be spaced to avoid it. And there's a specific distance where only one hit will connect--when that happens the opponent gets vacuumed right on top of Natsu, and she seems to be at disadvantage, though I haven't had a chance to check it thoroughly.
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
This. At the highest levels of play, where you have someone like Aris or JustinWong (does he even play SC?) reacting perfectly to everything you do, Natsu is balanced, or maybe even a little weak. At lower levels it could be argued that Natsu is OP. I don't think PS was trying to cater to casuals though. They made a tournament quality fighter and the more I read about and discover Natsu's weaknesses, the more I am appreciating how beautifully balanced the game is.