Unpopular moves you find useful

[I_N]

The idea is to post here some moves you use on a regular basis, even though they are not universally accepted staples + reasons for using them (pretty animation does not count). Sharing experience and knowledge concerning lesser-known aspects of Sophie moveset may prove quite beneficial, I think.

My list of underrated moves includes 44A (CH), iFC236K and 4K (I use the unpopular 3A a lot, too, but it's, basically, a 66A variant, so I don't think I should add it to the list). I find those three extremely effective when put to proper use.

44A (CH): Looks are deceptive, indeed. Frame data can be a bit deceptive, too. Strangely, it's one of the most effective moves I've ever seen hit-wise, and one of my personal favourites since SCIII. Yes, it's slow (i25), but it's a safe (-6 on block) retreating move with an extremely deceptive animation (it has a much larger hitbox than it seems to have - both horizontally and directly in front of you), so your opponent will definitely bump straight into that CH launcher more often than you think. By itself, it's not a big deal in terms of damage dealt (18 normal), so stay alert and apply your favourite follow-up :)

iFC236K: Sure enough, other 236 options totally outshine this little gem. I still think it's a very good move in its own right. Consider the facts: insanely long range, some tracking (not much, admittedly); at i14 (!) it's a fastest Sophie long-range option; it's really safe due to its range (-17 on block, but I see no particular reason to use it in close combat); it deals solid damage (30 normal) and ROs nicely... I mean, what's not to like? Well, yes, it's a high, but it's a damn quick high! In fact, personally, I find it more useful than 66A+B. If you don't use it, give it a try, it's well worth it.

4K: 4K is generally considered a bad move. Reasons? It's slow (i20), a high and does minimal damage (10). Hard to argue here. I really like the 4K's properties, though: it TCs nicely [5-12], reliably aGis all lows [4-11] and stuns on CH (and you will get a lot of CHs with 4K, trust me). As expected, 4K really shines against characters and opponents that tend to use some predictable/readable (not necessarily slow) mid-range lows. Amy is one obvious example. A pity it wasn't present in SCIII Sophie moveset: a nice Hwang-killer, I think (I refer to his amazing 3AA(B), of course) :)

 

[Ahriman]

iWS K: excellent pressing move
3B: huge damage post step, excellent TC, hard tu punish at tip range
1A: hit grounded, good antistep, tech trap in many cases, the follow up make it more safer than it really is

PS:CH 4K at tiprange guarantees TASB TASB:4 and TASB in the other range. Unfortunately the aGI does neutral hit if you doesn't JI...

 

[I_N]

iWS K: excellent pressing move

I didn't like it much, initially, but daGOTTh's tourney vids were eye-opening for me in this respect:
http://www.8wayrun.com/showpost.php?p=149225&postcount=23
It's -2 on block, which is really great. That said, Sophie's WS options are generally so good I'm at loss sometimes :)

3B: huge damage post step, excellent TC, hard tu punish at tip range

Use a lot of these, actually. Never thought 3B could be termed 'unpopular' :)

1A: hit grounded, good antistep, tech trap in many cases, the follow up make it more safer than it really is

Yes, a good tech-trap move. I find myself incorporating it more and more in my game recently. BTW, what do you mean by follow-up to 1A?

guarantees TASB TASB:4 and TASB in the other range

Oh, that reminds me of the punishment tables issue. Having spoken with Suirad, I'm currently inviting some contributors to previous Sophie punishment threads to the project. Ahriman, can you invite some acquaintances of yours, too? (=high-level Sophie French players) We'll have to to re-test/double-check a lot of data, so we need every competent Sophie player available... That is, if you are willing to participate at all :)

 

[tresto]

CH 44AA 236236B is my favorite Sophitia move.
Good damage, but the main appeal to me is how she looks flipping her sword arround after CH 44AA. So cool !

By "follow up to 1A" he means 1AA : you aren't going to punish 1A because you fear being hit by the second A.
It's a sort of a reaction trap. Just like nearly nobody will punish Mitsu's 66B because he can do 66BB.

Competitive Sophitia players apart from Ahriman aren't very active in FR community :
- Dina plays more Hilde these days (and doesn't post a lot on forums anyway)
- Chris isn't very active
- G-Remy is even less active

There was another guy called Ahri (not Ahriman) who also plays Sophitia, but I'm not sure how good he is and if he's active anymore.

 

[I_N]

CH 44AA 236236B is my favorite Sophitia move.
Good damage, but the main appeal to me is how she looks flipping her sword arround after CH 44AA. So cool !


Uh-huh... That's a typo, I guess. Reverse Mirage input is 44A. But yes, the animation is cool, indeed :)

By "follow up to 1A" he means 1AA : you aren't going to punish 1A because you fear being hit by the second A.


Are you sure he meant the natural follow-up to 1A? From my experience, after a couple of successful full 1AA tech-catches, the move will be punished systematically by every decent player. I won't risk the second A, I'd rather attempt one of her many decent WS options to keep the opponent guessing. Perhaps that's what Ahriman's 'follow-up' means...

Competitive Sophitia players apart from Ahriman aren't very active in FR community :
- Dina plays more Hilde these days (and doesn't post a lot on forums anyway)
- Chris isn't very active
- G-Remy is even less active

There was another guy called Ahri (not Ahriman) who also plays Sophitia, but I'm not sure how good he is and if he's active anymore.

Thanks a lot for summing it all up for me! :) The moment the work on Sophitia punishment tables will begin, you are welcome to contribute (if you are so inclined, of course).

 

[Suirad]

The only sophie move that might look bad on books that I use reasonably often is the B2 series. It's a low with next to no range, low damage, isn't NC and -4 on hit. The upsides are that it's difficult to read, it has a lot of uninterruptable attacks in the string to make opponent guess when you're going to end it, is fairly safe (-14) for a low and pushes out a lot on block. Pretty sub optimal in most cases, but it's usable to keep things fresh in your mix up especially when opponent's life total is low and little risk involved as long as you have experience ending the string at the right times.

WR K is a really good move, if its unpopular, its cause people dont know whats what. 1A is useful for utility reasons mentioned. 44A almost never deals damage, but there is almost no risk in using it so there is a place for it too. 4K has so little pay off and defeats so few dangerous situations that you're better off using some other dedicated TC/TJ move that will actually do some work, the idea you're gonna be getting CHs with an i20 linear high with mediocre evasion and poor range is pretty farfetched(and dangerous). 44B does a better job than 3B at being a standard launcher(better TC and safety, similar speed damage and range) and 33K does a better job of sidestep punishing(much faster to take advantage of whiff, safer on block/whiff). AS K is also a linear high and an absolutely dangerous thing to be tossing out making it's usability very limited, at the range you poke with this you could be poking with TAS B.

 

[I_N]

4K has so little pay off and defeats so few dangerous situations that you're better off using some other dedicated TC/TJ move that will actually do some work, the idea you're gonna be getting CHs with an i20 linear high with mediocre evasion and poor range is pretty farfetched(and dangerous).

Eh, I knew poor 4K will get butchered in this thread sooner or later :) Your observations are 100% correct, it's hard to argue with the facts. Still, I find it quite useful vs. specific playstyles/certain characters (you have to admit it does shine against a lot of Amy players, and that's a definite plus to consider!). And, as absurd as it sounds from a purely technical point of view, it actually does net CHs quite often. The psychological factor here outweighs the evident technical inferiority of the move, I suppose: good players are not ready for such a non-canonical move breaking the fight pattern, bad players are not aware it's, in fact, rubbish ;) That said, I won't claim 4K is a versatile move...

AS K is also a linear high and an absolutely dangerous thing to be tossing out making it's usability very limited, at the range you poke with this you could be poking with TAS B.

Linear and high it is, sadly. But dangerous? Not disproportionately so: -17 on block + a nice pushback + a really good range. Also, iFC236K is still a wee bit faster than even a 'perfect' (i15) TAS B is, has a bit more range, and, of course, it's way easier to pull off on reaction. I agree this move does require careful positioning and is by no means universally useful - it's not meant to be a staple poke, anyway. Neither is it worthless, however.

Concerning B2 series: theoretically, I know it's a useful move. It's just I tend to forget about B2 somehow, as stupid as it sounds... It comes out in a retrospective match analysis here and there, of course. That is, I think: 'Oh, a well-placed B2 here would have solved the problem!', but then I keep forgetting about it... Mainly because it's a somewhat unusual move, both input and property-wise, I guess (and because Sophie has quite a bunch of good moves to choose from, actually).

 

[Ramon]

44K - Def something that is worth using imo! fast mid kick! CH gives free hit! also RO potential if they are hugging the wall.

 

[Suirad]

AS K is also a linear high and an absolutely dangerous thing to be tossing out making it's usability very limited, at the range you poke with this you could be poking with TAS B.

Linear and high it is, sadly. But dangerous? Not disproportionately so: -17 on block + a nice pushback + a really good range. Also, iFC236K is still a wee bit faster than even a 'perfect' (i15) TAS B is, has a bit more range, and, of course, it's way easier to pull off on reaction. I agree this move does require careful positioning and is by no means universally useful - it's not meant to be a staple poke, anyway. Neither is it worthless, however.

The reason its dangerous is because even if you use it at a range it cnat be punished it can be both sidestepped and ducked. Lots of staple long range moves for characters TC(see sets 33B, asta 66K, sophie a whole bunch of things, cass 66A, etc...) and at mid-long range stepping is commonly used to create whiffing since most characters cant project their step killing ability very far.

When fighting at a distance timing and positioning matter a great deal more than usual and so a couple frame difference in a move tends not to matter much. So even if it's slightly faster than TAS B, TAS B will always be the better choice because even though it's steppable too, you cant TC/crouch under it, it wont be punished on block(ex taki) if opponent steps in and blocks or w/e and its actually worth hitting(compare 1/8 of health bar vs 5/12 or better). This is that infamous "risk/reward". TAS B is a gamble too but its a gamble weighted in your favor, where AS K is most certainly not.

Also TAS B tip stun can be used to RO a further distance(even over low walls) than AS K and no AS K does not have more reach than TAS B does.

The story is somewhat different in BD since AS K was made safer, given longer RO and higher combo damage while TAS B tip hit mas made punishable on block, but in SCIV there really isnt any reason to use AS K oustide of some very particular situations (i.e. after blocking MST [K]).

 

[I_N]

44K - Def something that is worth using imo! fast mid kick! CH gives free hit! also RO potential if they are hugging the wall.

I do use this move's 11_88K variant a lot and absolutely love it. It's slightly inferior frame- and damage-wise, but also a bit less... obvious, so to say.

Oh, that reminds me of B+K, which probably is/was Ramon's favorite move (judging by the vids :)). Cannot really claim it's unpopular, but it's not a generally accepted staple move :)

PS: Ramon, when you have a couple of minutes, please reply to my private message. It's not urgent, of course, just want to be sure you've got it.
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Suirad:

and no AS K does not have more reach than TAS B does.

You are right. Just an optical illusion, I guess :)

Truth be said, your analysis is so in-depth and persuasive, it may actually alter my opinion concerning AS K :) I do use it very effectively, but perhaps it's just a result of my opponents' failure to evade and punish it as needed...

 

[Signia]

I do use this move's 11_88K variant a lot and absolutely love it. It's slightly inferior frame- and damage-wise, but also a bit less... obvious, so to say.

Oh, that reminds me of B+K, which probably is/was Ramon's favorite move (judging by the vids :)). Cannot really claim it's unpopular, but it's not a generally accepted staple move :)

I agree, 44K's damage on CH is great, and on block gives deceptive pushback and safety. and if you use it at near max range it leaves you in a position similar to 4B+K, which is good time to set up TASBx2. But I'm not sure what you mean by 11_88K being less obvious, they look the same, unless you're actually 8WRing around when you use them.

4K is her worst move. 10 damage on successful aGI? Slow linear high? It's even unsafe on block! (-14) Only remotely useful in those weird High-Low-Nothing mixup situations like X's WR A+B or NM's 1[A] or Raph's 22A A_B. Even then... 10 damage unless you JI.

I think her tech jumps are pretty useful for their unpopularity.
8A could be used more, it's kinda gimmicky though. It pushes back like crazy and makes people whiff at TASB tip range. 9B does a surprising 32 damage and it reliably hits when you jump lows unlike some other 9Bs that phase through. 9K is less range but is +7 on hit/CH and -5 on block so this is better than 9B if you're sure it won't whiff.

 

[I_N]

unless you're actually 8WRing around when you use them

Yes, that was my point, more or less :) I'm not always 8WRing while using it, of course... My original wording was bad. It's kind of... less expectable, I guess? Not as easily anticipated as your linear 44K. From a purely psychological/mindgame point of view, that is. Technically, it is a bit inferior, as I have stated.

8A could be used more, it's kinda gimmicky though. It pushes back like crazy and makes people whiff at TASB tip range. 9B does a surprising 32 damage and it reliably hits when you jump lows unlike some other 9Bs that phase through. 9K is less range but is +7 on hit/CH and -5 on block so this is better than 9B if you're sure it won't whiff.

I do use quite a lot of 9B's, and tend to throw out a 8A every now and then. Never tried 9K's, though. I'll definitely look into it, thanks.
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Even then... 10 damage unless you JI.

Oh, here we go again :) Look, I don't subscribe to the fashionable (mostly theoretically, as we really don't see any high-level fights conducted in accordance with this theory in practice) point of view, according to which, potential material reward > safety and positioning. I cannot really say I can argue with your general evaluation of 4K, though... All of your remarks are 100% correct. I guess, in this case (and in case of 236K, so brutally slaughtered by Suirad :)) I just happen to apply a sub-optimal move in an effective way. Which does not mean I have to recommend it to other players. So ultimately, yes, you are right :)

 

[Ahriman]

A+K: On hit combo, very good blockstun, mix up with A+K K. Catch the 8Way run. A very good option select...

 

[Suirad]

9K is less range but is +7 on hit/CH and -5 on block so this is better than 9B if you're sure it won't whiff.

9K also has a strange hitbox that makes some stuff whiff against her in close range. 9K deals 28 damage which is surprising for a jumping mid of it's speed. The bad thing about it of course is that it has an incredibly short range. 9B is only 1 frame slower and breaks in 10, Only better 9B I can think of is Apprentice's.