Viola Combo & Tech Trap Discussion

KineticClash said:
It's a true combo, not ACable
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I'm 98% sure it is. I tested it, and tested B in other combos. It's entirely ACable unless it requires strict timing on the B+K BE's part.

Though the question is also SOMEWHAT moot, considering you can get better damage for less meter usage without doing it.
 
The combo does 240dmg without clean hit if done correctly... What does more than that? Are you sure you're doing it right?

PS. If you input ANYTHING !DURING! the animation of SET 6B+K after it connects airborne they can AC. You have to wait until the orb stops moving before making an input. This will prevent all AC.
 
I know this is a double post, but I've checked and there's a slightly different inescapable combo that does more damage.

SET 6B+K, SET 3K, SET B+K BE, ORB 6A+B (charge and release after ground damage), SET 2B+K BE, SET 6B+K, SET 66A, SET AAB, ORB 6A+B (slight charge, first attack should whiff), SET 2B+K BE, SET 6B+K, SET 66A, SET B+K BE (Timing is strange, make sure orb is at farthest distance before using this move so that the orb doesn't immediately return), ORB 66B, ORB 66A+BB

This combo does 242+dmg without clean hit or added damage from tech attempts (tech attempts add up to 10dmg).

To ensure that this combo was inescapable, I recorded in training and attempted to escape it myself. I did this by mashing 8G8G8G.... during entire combo, then next time with 9G9G9G... next time with 6Gs until I tried every direction. I even switched up the directions in the middle of the combo a couple times to make sure. The only times the combo dropped was when I started out at a farther distance from Viola. This was all tested on Viola herself, because she is one of the tiniest characters.

Anyways, the moral of the story is she has a 100% damage inescapable combo, and no character should have that.
 
KineticClash said:
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I believe you can get more damage off of 2A+B after the first SET B+K BE (The high launch). 2A+B seems to do massive damage there because you can make it land right when they take the damage for hitting the ground (Which is about half of B+K BE's damage). However, with scaling, who knows if it will matter.

And as far as your first question - you discovered what I meant. 66A is the better juggle and B is wonky and can be ACable (albeit faster thus easier to land).

Edit:

Oh, and I was under the impression that a couple characters had combos that did just as much damage dependant on wall hit or full meter, etc. This combo's kind of just as situational; 4 full meter, and off a setup that's pretty hard to hit confirm and is difficult to land realistically anyway.
 
Please don't defend ToD combos in Soul Calibur. It's giving me flashbacks of SCIV Ivy players saying she wasn't top tier.
 
Destinizish said:
I believe you can get more damage off of 2A+B after the first SET B+K BE (The high launch). 2A+B seems to do massive damage there because you can make it land right when they take the damage for hitting the ground (Which is about half of B+K BE's damage). However, with scaling, who knows if it will matter.

And as far as your first question - you discovered what I meant. 66A is the better juggle and B is wonky and can be ACable (albeit faster thus easier to land).
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You're right about the scaling. In such large combo's the scaling due to 2A+B's stun is very apparent.

Also, 66A is a better, more damaging juggle. However, the timing for 66A is surprisingly difficult and a lot more situational than B in most cases, although it does have better reach. In this ToD combo, the two can be interchanged based on how far away the opponent lands from 6A+B. B is better for close up, but does less damage (will most likely result in 230-239dmg). It is not ACable as far as I know.

However, being a midscreen combo makes this one a lot less situational. A full stocked up meter happens more than enough times in SC5 to make it nothing special. The time between a hit 3K and B+K BE is more than enough to hit confirm. It is difficult to land, but I've been doing it in online matches against skilled players just for the fun of it.
 
KineticClash said:
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B is ACable left in every other combo that uses the 2B+K BE 6B+K loop. I can't see why it wouldn't be here - especially because to get B+K BE to hit you have to delay it.

And I dunno - Full meter might happen, but for Viola? Feels a bit strange to keep yourself at full meter unless you're specifically baiting this combo. She does tons of damage with less meter, and a lot of her BEs as well as her CE are incredibly useful.

Slade said:
Please don't defend ToD combos in Soul Calibur. It's giving me flashbacks of SCIV Ivy players saying she wasn't top tier.
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I don't think people read my posts sometimes.

I don't know where I defended her having a ToD combo - nobody should have one. But hers is incredibly difficult to land relative to some others. I mean, Hilde was banned in SCIV for nearly the same reason, and if this was used to justify a Viola ban, that's totally understandable. However, it's also not really a comparable case simply because of how incredibly amazing the properties for C3A/C3B were. If they were both awful moves, I'm not sure people would have had as big a problem with her.
 
I'm not trying to instigate anything here. I just thought when you mentioned the fact that certain other characters have 240+ damage combos you were using it as a justification, i.e. if those characters have it it's okay for Viola to.

I don't think Viola is anything near the point where she can be compared to SCIV Hilde. She can't space as well as Hilde could, for one thing. One aspect where I think they can be fairly compared is the requirement for them to have access to their strongest moves. For Hilde, it was building charges, which prevented her from doing her best moves whenever she needed them. For Viola it's sending out Set 6B+K, which makes her unsafe moves positive on block and gives access to her most dangerous combo starters. The risk Hilde took from holding charges wasn't high enough to justify the reward of C3 moves (risk being virtually none as she could guard while charging, reward being a ringout), whereas Viola puts herself at disadvantage and risks a counter hit for 20 frames. Still, Hilde could never force mixups like Viola can. Being able to force throws and take advantage of the completely safe 6B+K > 1K.

Anyway my whole Hilde/Viola analysis is completely tangential to the point I wanted to make. I don't want to start some community war over a character and I don't want any bans. It just makes me cringe every time I see a Viola land two random 3Bs or 44A BEs and win a round as a result. The skewed risk/reward isn't exclusive to her, though. Alpha Patroklos, Cervantes, and Mitsurugi are stupid also.

tldr; I agree with you that it would be very difficult to change her moveset in a way that wouldn't completely destroy the character (although the same was said about Natsu's poison dart stun removal which, despite eliciting many salty tears from the bandwagoners, turned out to be an effective way of balancing the character without reducing her to TEH UNVIABULZ status), so I'm pretty much reduced to complaining about her combo damage.
 
Slade said:
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I didn't think you were. I just quite often get posts like these, that imply I said something that I really didn't, and don't agree with. I was making the case that yes, she shouldn't have it, neither should anyone else. But in the case that they are in, Viola's is less useful.

This is exactly why I didn't want a Viola damage buff, and want a nerf in that department. I also want the top 5 nerfed just as hard, but eh, whatever.

There's still significantly more risk with Viola than many other characters, so TBH, who knows what should be done?
 
SET 6B+K, SET B, SET AAB against an airborne opponent post SET 2B+K BE is absolutely not ACable. If it was, Tokido wouldn't have been using it at MLG. Are you testing this? I am, and it's definitely impossible.

Also, just to give a little idea of how "unviable" this combo is, I played Kayane online in a mirror match and was able to perform it on round 5 to take her from around 230 health to 0 health and won that match.


...Oops, that sounded bitchier than I wanted it to XD
 
Well, I think the 6A+B slight charge in air combos is kind of silly as it severely reduces the damage scaling of the combo compared to if Orb 2A+B was used instead. I don't think her obnoxiously long juggles should be modified as they make up a large part of the appeal of the character but 116 damage for one BE off 3B and 112 off 44A BE is crazy.

I also think hit confirmable 44A BE needs to go, but removing the ability to hit confirm as well as severely reducing its damage--considering how lackluster her other BEs can be outside of combos (not to say they don't have their uses, like the guaranteed throw attempt from a blocked 2B+K BE)--might be an overnerf. Like you said, nailing down specifics is hard, maybe impossible.

Oh, and Set 3B shouldn't hit stepping opponents like it currently does. Tracking vertical launchers is extremely stupid.

I agree with you about the rest of the top 5 needing nerfs as well. Letting the game develop over time is my preferred course of action but if Project Soul is going to patch the game again, we at the 8wayrun community may as well ensure they do it in the best possible way. (That means stop nerfing Raphael long enough to fix some whiffing issues, god damn it.)
 
KineticClash said:
SET 6B+K, SET B, SET AAB against an airborne opponent post SET 2B+K BE is absolutely not ACable. If it was, Tokido wouldn't have been using it at MLG. Are you testing this? I am, and it's definitely impossible.

Also, just to give a little idea of how "unviable" this combo is, I played Kayane online in a mirror match and was able to perform it on round 5 to take her from around 230 health to 0 health and won that match.


...Oops, that sounded bitchier than I wanted it to XD
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Right after MLG I went into training and worked with the combo for a long time trying to figure out how it worked - I found a couple things wonky with it - and when I came back to the forums, LostProvidence had come to the same conclusions I had:

1.) Single B is ACable left.
2.) Resetting only works if the opponent attempts to tech. If they don't attempt to tech, the combo drops at the next AAB. Meaning: 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE 6B+K 66A AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE 6B+K 66A... The combo will drop if the opponent doesn't try to tech the bolded 2B+K BE.

And that Tokido at MLG thing - bad argument. In competitive fighting games - especially early in the game's life (as SCV is still young) people play on character ignorance ALL THE TIME. Plenty of people don't post their more interesting finds if they have a weakness so that they can pull it out somewhere, and it won't be until later that people will look at it and say, "oh hey, this doesn't work if they do this..."
 
Destinizish said:
Right after MLG I went into training and worked with the combo for a long time trying to figure out how it worked - I found a couple things wonky with it - and when I came back to the forums, LostProvidence had come to the same conclusions I had:

1.) Single B is ACable left.
2.) Resetting only works if the opponent attempts to tech. If they don't attempt to tech, the combo drops at the next AAB. Meaning: 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE 6B+K 66A AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE 6B+K 66A... The combo will drop if the opponent doesn't try to tech the bolded 2B+K BE.

And that Tokido at MLG thing - bad argument. In competitive fighting games - especially early in the game's life (as SCV is still young) people play on character ignorance ALL THE TIME. Plenty of people don't post their more interesting finds if they have a weakness so that they can pull it out somewhere, and it won't be until later that people will look at it and say, "oh hey, this doesn't work if they do this..."
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Well then you both need to retest it like I have. It is not at all ACable if done correctly. Also, your second point is correct for the most part. However, different combos have different results. Again, if you add extra inputs during the 6B+K connection with the opponent, the opponent can activate AC. This means...

1) You cannot take a step forward after hitting B and before AAB
2) You cannot tap G after hitting B and before AAB
3) B must come out immediately after performing 6B+K
4) AAB has to be delayed until 6B+K is completely finished

Thank you for pointing out how bad my argument about Tokido was. However, I have a video proving my argument if you would REALLY like to see it.

And I'd just like to say I don't really care whether or not YOU think this is ACable. What bothers me is that you're telling other people that it doesn't without having done the proper testing, and therefore, hurting the potential of other Viola mains. The fact is, 6B+K, B, AAB is not ACable if done correctly, and every Viola should work this into their gameplay as long as it is not patched. It does insane damage. Again, I could show you the video if you want. It's just a hassle.
 
I have only tested it on the training dummy, but nonetheless he failed to Aerial Control the 6B+K B part in every direction. Sometimes to connect AAB you have to dash to him though, so it's 6B+K B dash AAB .... . But you have plenty of time to do that.
 
KineticClash said:
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I intend on retesting it - I'm just not around my PS3.

Also - you're welcome, I suppose. I just find it weird when people make that argument in any game. In most competitive games, if people find a gimmick that they think will work, they aren't afraid to pull it and gamble on ignorance, especially if they invented it themselves and don't think people have the knowledge of it. Sure, you or I might not do this, but it doesn't mean other people don't.

As far as hurting future Viola mains - I dunno man - I think the fact that 90% of current Viola tech was found by Trace, Cedric, Signia and myself outweighs me discrediting a single combo by saying it might be ACable when it already has a better alternative even if it isn't ACable. 66A way better, man.
 
This is a double post, but it kind of needs to be seen:

So uh - after a bit of messing around, I've found there's around 4 or 5 different ways to get into this ToD combo - and I'm pretty much in full support of a Viola ban now. Until she gets damage nerfs (and I mean a LARGE one to B+K BE again) she can get 240 damage off of quite a few moves. I think one of the scariest though - is this combo can result out of SET 6B+K 2A.

I probably won't play V at all if she does get banned (largely because I just haven't found anyone else as fun), but that doesn't mean a setup that easy leading into 240 damage isn't bullshit and bannable.
 
Wow, I haven't looked up these particular forums in a good while...would someone mind posting a vid of this TOD combo so I can LOL and scare the neighbours?
 
So long as it requires meter i dont see why this combo alone is enough to warrant a ban for her. It's resource restricted so it isnt like she's going to be doing it at any opportunity, like how Hilde in SCIV could get ring outs essentially for free from anywhere on the screen. We're talking about a combo that requires the player going out of their way to save up meter for a combo when they have more practical uses of the meter with things like 44A BE and critical edges.

Restricting all your meter usage so you can essentially style on someone with a ToD combo seems far from efficient and not really a bannable offense. Not like i'm defending the combo itself, i of course think that's stupid. But i dont see how this would make her ban worthy. Especially when she's had the meter-less back grab infinite from day 1 and we all know how everyone isnt using this as a case for a ban. The character has quite a few weaknesses and i dont know why this alone should negate all of these things when they're basically throwing rounds away by not making good use of their meter. I know it's technically possible to win matches without spending any meter at all, but again, i just dont think it's all that practical. More of a hail merry thing should you find yourself sitting on 2 bars.
 
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