Viola Combo & Tech Trap Discussion

taffertier said:
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A few reasons:

1.) 2 meter isn't exactly hard to come by, especially as Viola, if you're willing to sit it out.

2.) You get a free meter on the last round.

3.) It's off of fucking 2A.

4.) It's becoming an issue with a lot of gray area. What do we do about a ToD combo that has several ways of performing it? How can we logistically ban it without banning random stuff from her kit?

5.) With 3 meter you do 209 damage. With 2 meter you get 190. Still seem good and all?

6.) It's off of fucking 2A.

TBH, it's mostly centered around #4 that I could see banning her. As someone who's competed, and understood lots of bans before this, Viola certainly fits the bill now. She's just becoming a problem character. I don't want to see her banned any more than anyone else, but it's a huge problem that either PS needs to address, or she should probably be banned just for the health of the game.
 
Destinizish said:
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From a realistic perspective having the 4 BEs to perform this move is something that only comes along about once a match, maybe 2 if you're being stingy with meter. Which there isnt any reason to be when you're Viola. And as for the issue of temporarily fixing the ToD combo, wouldnt simply making it illegal to perform more than 2 6A+B's or one 6A+B and one 2A+B in a combo, solve the combo's problem? As a temporary solution in case PS doesnt in fact do anything about it. This just seems like a rather fickle reason to call for a ban when everything else about the character has been fine until now. It's a fairly niche situation that is detrimental to the play style of the person playing her.

Also a video would be nice, showing how the combo can be performed off of 2A and the other ways it can be started, i was under the impressive that it wouldnt work at all.
 
Destinizish said:
A few reasons:

1.) 2 meter isn't exactly hard to come by, especially as Viola, if you're willing to sit it out.

2.) You get a free meter on the last round.

3.) It's off of fucking 2A.

4.) It's becoming an issue with a lot of gray area. What do we do about a ToD combo that has several ways of performing it? How can we logistically ban it without banning random stuff from her kit?

5.) With 3 meter you do 209 damage. With 2 meter you get 190. Still seem good and all?

6.) It's off of fucking 2A.

TBH, it's mostly centered around #4 that I could see banning her. As someone who's competed, and understood lots of bans before this, Viola certainly fits the bill now. She's just becoming a problem character. I don't want to see her banned any more than anyone else, but it's a huge problem that either PS needs to address, or she should probably be banned just for the health of the game.
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Here is the case for Banning Viola:

1. Infinite combo (Reason SCIV Algol was banned)
2. Makes my 2A seem balanced. Which is terrifying.
 
taffertier said:
From a realistic perspective having the 4 BEs to perform this move is something that only comes along about once a match, maybe 2 if you're being stingy with meter. Which there isnt any reason to be when you're Viola. And as for the issue of temporarily fixing the ToD combo, wouldnt simply making it illegal to perform more than 2 6A+B's or one 6A+B and one 2A+B in a combo, solve the combo's problem? As a temporary solution in case PS doesnt in fact do anything about it. This just seems like a rather fickle reason to call for a ban when everything else about the character has been fine until now. It's a fairly niche situation that is detrimental to the play style of the person playing her.

Also a video would be nice, showing how the combo can be performed off of 2A and the other ways it can be started, i was under the impressive that it wouldnt work at all.
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Again - this same setup can be used to get 184 damage with no clean hits off of a 2A if you only have 2 meter.

If you have 3 meter (with further experimenting) you get 222 damage.

It's an inescapable combo that starts off of 2A for god's sake.

For the sake of this thread, I tested the combo without looping 6A+B... Nope, Still 230 damage.

And if I make a video - I'll do it after EVO, largely because I don't want SCIV hilde situation. I'd rather nobody knew how to do it so it didn't happen at EVO, and SCV doesn't explode like SCIV did.

If ban talks are gonna start, they can start AFTER EVO comes and goes; and if people are ever going to use this combo, they can also use it after EVO.
 
I see that this combo seems to start off 6B+K. Are we talking a raw, the opponent stops blocking for no reason 6B+K, or your typical mid/low mixup - 3a/1k for example - after which 6B+K hits? If it's the former, I'm hard pressed to see who exactly is getting hit by raw 6B+Ks.
 
Echo01 said:
I see that this combo seems to start off 6B+K. Are we talking a raw, the opponent stops blocking for no reason 6B+K, or your typical mid/low mixup - 3a/1k for example - after which 6B+K hits? If it's the former, I'm hard pressed to see who exactly is getting hit by raw 6B+Ks.
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The latter.

It works off of 3K, 3A, 2A, 2B.

You can also start it off the throw->B+K BE setups.

You can also get 250 damage off of CH 6AB.
 
Oh...right, then I see the problem. Though I understand taffer's points, hoarding meter in general in SCV seems fairly easy. I've definitely had my fair share of matches where I've used no meter at all and got on fine. If a Viola wanted to limit their arsenal somewhat to gain 2 meters, it would be doable.
 
Echo01 said:
If a Viola wanted to limit their arsenal somewhat to gain 2 meters, it would be doable.
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Well yeah, doable. Practical? I dont think so, especially not when she could be using that for CEs in clutch situations and big punishment opportunities. Which is probably a better, more economical use of meter. I've been in plenty of matches where i find myself sitting on 2 bars for game point, or close to it. And it feels more like i could have put it to better use, it tells me that i should have used it for that 44A BE opportunity, or should have used the CE to try and finish that one round. I think it seems like in most high level matches players try to be liberal with their meter, spending it where they can. Like if they're sitting on 2 bars at game point it was more than likely an accident or due to a sudden ring out.
 
Just because it takes full meter, that doesn't make it any less of a ToD combo. By this logic, would you be okay if Algol's CE did 240 damage off an i13 attack?

The fact that it's MIDSCREEN certainly makes it easy to come by (don't get me started on her wall combos).
 
I'm lost and celebrating the 4th. What are these combos and are there videos? How many meters does it take? Whatever the community
Decides, I'm down for. Even though Viola's my girl, if everyone decides it's bad (and by everyone, I mean people who actually show up to tournaments) for the tournament community, then maybe it or she needs to be banned. Could always be another Pyrrha or Ivy player, I guess. Maybe even Hilde or ZWEI.
 
LostProvidence said:
I'm lost and celebrating the 4th. What are these combos and are there videos? How many meters does it take? Whatever the community
Decides, I'm down for. Even though Viola's my girl, if everyone decides it's bad (and by everyone, I mean people who actually show up to tournaments) for the tournament community, then maybe it or she needs to be banned. Could always be another Pyrrha or Ivy player, I guess. Maybe even Hilde or ZWEI.
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Pick zwei :D join the wolf gang!
haha kidding.....
 
taffertier said:
Well yeah, doable. Practical? I dont think so, especially not when she could be using that for CEs in clutch situations and big punishment opportunities. Which is probably a better, more economical use of meter. I've been in plenty of matches where i find myself sitting on 2 bars for game point, or close to it. And it feels more like i could have put it to better use, it tells me that i should have used it for that 44A BE opportunity, or should have used the CE to try and finish that one round. I think it seems like in most high level matches players try to be liberal with their meter, spending it where they can. Like if they're sitting on 2 bars at game point it was more than likely an accident or due to a sudden ring out.
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Stop it.

You're defending a character having a mid screen ToD combo with no clean hits off of 2A. The fact that it comes off of a 2A and is hit confirmable is absolutely bullshit. Hell, the fact that she gets up to 190 off of 2 meter alone makes her absolutely bullshit; even without the ToD. That alone is enough to say, "holy shit, fuck this character, we need to ban her." You shouldn't be able to get anything off of a 2A or 2B. The fact Viola gets more than 120 is fucking crazy.

This is Soul Calibur, and this really is not how the system should work. I'm pretty sure any veteran of the competitive scene can tell you getting more than 50 damage off a 2A is bullshit. Getting 190? 240? LOL Fuck that.
 
Okay, the ban talk can go to the current issues thread. Nice clarificaton on the b after 2b+k BE. Tested and no inputs afterwards does make it unaircontrollable and is much easier alternative than 66a.
 
Destinizish said:
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I'll just reserve judgement until i think it has become a problem. This game has a bad enough reputation for broken characters and mechanics and we dont need more. So i got no issues with a ban should it come to that. I'm fairly new to the scene though, so i dont have much knowledge on what constitutes a ban.

Still wish i could get a video, not so i can practice it last minute before Evo. Just to see if there is anyway i could go about not getting put in the situation where another Viola player could hit me with it. As you said she has several ways to go about doing this, i'm assuming all are pretty easy minimum risk ways.
 
Getting away from the Viola Instant Kill stuff,

just noticed that this simple combo isn't in the combo thread, and does in fact work.

orb33B/33(B) 66B 66A+BB 73/92 damage without counter/clean hits

just in case you happen to land an orb33B.
 
Destinizish said:
Wrong quote......
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this is probaly gana add more heat to viola...but shit since everyone is doing it *jump*

i havent tested it out, but theoritcally this is possible due to my own variations of B+k* usage

if the ToD combo off of CH 6ab is 250...

then the same combo can be done off of NH Set 4A+B for 250+ (no CH dmg scaling)

Set 4A+b being easier to hit confirm, decent range, can get done off of a GC i believe.....

im gana go test this my self in a sec, but if anyone else would confirm it as well coo...



and TBH, my opinion this combo is viable only once per match, maybe 2 with the match is taken to the final round....

Also assuming the there is a high execution bound, first not just anyone can throw this combo out, and secondly even pros have a good chance in dropping such a combo (during a match, not the training room)....

in theory, i would say in a large tournament, this combo would probably be seen once or twice done at its fullest 240+ dmg...

unlike sc4 hilde which was not restricted much by execution and BE.......but thats just my opinion...

im not saying ToD combo should be fully accepted, but then again calling for a ban is a bit extreme due to the nature of the combo


....if anyone disagrees, plz i would like to see multiple videos of this combo being executed during a match against an intelligent opponent....(intelligent as in not some random online scrub) if i see this, then ya ill probably reconsider for a ban + patch for viola...
 
pootytang9 said:
....if anyone disagrees, plz i would like to see multiple videos of this combo being executed during a match against an intelligent opponent....(intelligent as in not some random online scrub) if i see this, then ya ill probably reconsider for a ban + patch for viola...
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When it can start off of 2A, you can bet your ass you'll see it more than that so long as the opener lands.

And no - the combo isn't hard. It's only as hard as her other combos, relatively.

And yes, it can be done off 4A+B B+K BE.

Can also be done off of 44A BE (but damage scaling makes it not hit 240)
 
Ive done the tod method or whatever you want to call it in matches but ill be well into the combo and than the they'll just drop costing me the match. I'll be doing it from 44A BE 6B+K 3K BE or 6AB and any other setup and they drop sure thats reason enough to not ban her
 
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