VS Kilik

K

KowtowRobinson

[10] Knight
You're going to see Kilik players, so we'll just use this thread as a point of reference. It's pretty annoying, there's a few things you can use though.

- b2 kills Asura clean. I guess it counts as a body hit or something.
- 1k, 6k will whiff through a WS B, however the WS K won't and is still fast enough to frame trap vs Kilik.
- aB will shut down both WS B and Asura in some situations, but be careful because even Kilik can punish this.
- He can't do Asura without cancelling his crouch, so if he's crouching you can sit on WS B and maybe try a mid, if you're feeling lucky.
- not Cervy specific, but step left always. He has moves to cover this but they're not that scary.
- Learn to see 214B, you have to block a lot against Kilik so get your 4g's ready or you'll eat some CF's for sure.

It's just a boring match, in the end. This isn't Cervy alone, Kilik is just boring to fight against, and unless you consistently focus on shutting down WS B and Asura, you're going to lose. You may find yourself beating Asura once with something like 66k CH, 11b and say all right good, time to play some Soul Calibur and then do a mid and get rocked by Asura again.

It's not all that dissimilar from fighting Yoda, in the sense that a good portion of your moveset is just going to get you murdered. He's better than Yoda by a longshot, but in terms of what they do to your general gameplan, the analogy works. You can at least throw Kilik if he's guarding, although WS B/Asura spam beats that as well.

Cervy can win this match, I'm probably just gonna pick Asta anyway, just because I don't have fun playing such a boring matchup. If you plan on sticking with Cervy for this, go into practice mode and get the timing down for stepping Asura, both the 1st hit and the 2nd if you block the 1st. The timing on stepping the 2nd hit is very strict. Asura is unsafe enough that if you step after the first hit, and the 2nd doesn't come out, you should still get a guaranteed aB. At which point you just step left again, he's not going to kill you with nothing but WS A's.

In general just be prepared to block a lot, step a lot, and NOT attack when you should be attacking. You have to REALLY want to win, because you're not going to enjoy this match at all, he's easily the most boring character to play against in the game.
 
Yup, I learned all of this the hard way after playing Oof last night. I didn't realize that Asura impacts a lot of your moves, and that's all he kept throwing out, besides WR B. Guess I gotta practice with Kilik now to find some more holes in it.
 
The main hole in Asura is highs and kicks. However highs consistently lose to WS B, as do many of Cervy's kick moves. One thing you can take into this matchup is that many of your unsafe moves are no longer unsafe. However, many of those previously unsafe moves that Kilik can't punish well, also happen to lose to Asura.

Oof picked up that Kilik in like 15 minutes, and he's already going even with Toronto's mains. I honestly didn't realize just how strong the change to Asura was, until I started facing real Asura spam. Up till this point, I'd only been playing real Kilik players.
 
Against Kilik with Cervantes, if he gets close enough, try WRBB. He is then in FC and from there you can control the fight a little bit better as he can't do Asura from FC and his MO throws won't reach you. Control Kilik, otherwise HE WILL CONTROL you.

If you're smart and know opponent's tendencies, you can do something of a loop. But remember, WRBB is your ticket against Kilik, as a standing fight against him is tough. WRBB usage will kill Kilik's CF gauge and since he can't punish it properly, there is nothing stopping you from abusing it. The trick is getting close.

Hope that helps!
 
It may not be punishable by Kilik, but you are still at a heavy disadvantage. Just because something isn't punishable, doesn't mean you can comfortably mount any offense. You are also in FC after this, which means you'll have difficulty stepping any follow up moves. Basing your anti-Kilik game around this, simply because he can't Asura out of FC, is a really flawed strategy. His WR/FC game is not bad at all, even outside of WS B spam.

If you want to force him into crouch, 4a+k forces crouch on block, is less disadvantaged than WS B,B and leaves you standing, free to step immediately. Not to mention being a kick, although one that's slower than Asura.
 
Have you even tried it?

WRK whick is his fastest WR attack will whiff.

FCK is the only thing that hits.

Meanwhile, you are destroying his gauge and putting pressure on him.

And yes, WRBB puts you in FC, which is nice. Depending of opponent, if he doesn't WRB instantly, he eats another WRBB and the situation resets, unless he FCK, which is pity damage.

IMO, it's just dumb trying to fight Kilik normally 'cause he has better tools. Fuck stepping and normal mixups and abuse his only real weakness which is a lack of a speedy attack from FC and luckily Cervantes can take advantage of this weakness.

Just trying to help but hey, if you want to fight Kilik normally, that's alright.

Good luck!!!
 
WS BB against Kilik is interesting.

Why not use 2A+B to force him in Crouch? Its safer, faster, you dont have to go into crouch. i mean WS BB is Asuraable as well as 2A+B.

So why use a -17 Move which is slow and from FC when there is 2A+B? I dont get. Or 11B which is safe.
-17 is heavy Disadvantage, you cant base your Anti Game on this Move.

Despite from that, he still gets a free Monunemt Mixup from FC to FOTD or MON A etc etc....both 2A+B and WS BB leave him in Range.

EDIT:

Ehhh...after 5 minutes Research i found out that its punishable by 66B. Gotta admit the Blockstun is Kind of long and you just have 1 Frame to buffer, but this cant be a Anti Kilik Strategy.
 
docvizzo said:
WS BB against Kilik is interesting.

Why not use 2A+B to force him in Crouch? Its safer, faster, you dont have to go into crouch. i mean WS BB is Asuraable as well as 2A+B.

So why use a -17 Move which is slow and from FC when there is 2A+B? I dont get. Or 11B which is safe.
-17 is heavy Disadvantage, you cant base your Anti Game on this Move.

Despite from that, he still gets a free Monunemt Mixup from FC to FOTD or MON A etc etc....both 2A+B and WS BB leave him in Range.

EDIT:

Ehhh...after 5 minutes Research i found out that its punishable by 66B. Gotta admit the Blockstun is Kind of long and you just have 1 Frame to buffer, but this cant be a Anti Kilik Strategy.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much what I was going to say. He would have to be incredibly late on a WS B for you to be able to stick your own WS B,B in. As in, he'd already be standing by that time. Like 10 frames ago.

Any idiot can kill you if you try to fight against Kilik normally, learned that the hard way already. But using WS B,B as something to force crouch when you have better, faster options, and even one that's a kick, is just pointless.
 
docvizzo said:
WS BB against Kilik is interesting.

Why not use 2A+B to force him in Crouch? Its safer, faster, you dont have to go into crouch. i mean WS BB is Asuraable as well as 2A+B.

So why use a -17 Move which is slow and from FC when there is 2A+B? I dont get. Or 11B which is safe.
-17 is heavy Disadvantage, you cant base your Anti Game on this Move.

Despite from that, he still gets a free Monunemt Mixup from FC to FOTD or MON A etc etc....both 2A+B and WS BB leave him in Range.

EDIT:

Ehhh...after 5 minutes Research i found out that its punishable by 66B. Gotta admit the Blockstun is Kind of long and you just have 1 Frame to buffer, but this cant be a Anti Kilik Strategy.
Click to expand...


Docvizzo-I'm not a Cervantes player so I don't know his frame data by heart. In fact, fuck Cervantes!!!

However, we have a common threat in Kilik. That's why I got into this thread. I have seen some nice setups against Kilik as long as he's in FC.

Tested your moves and yes, 66B hits but it's got to be spot on. It's still 18 dmg so no big deal. The part where MO throws reach is true if Cervantes recovers blocking after. If he does WRBB again he gets hit. MO throws from FC don't reach, it's the standing MO one.

2A+B has it worse. It's safer and Cervantes recovers crouching but on block both MO throws setups catch him if he blocks after. You have to commit to a WR attack for this not to happen and Kilik can WRB out of all WR options before.

11B seems interesting although still a mid and slow. Pushblock makes both MO throw setups whiff so that's nice.

4A+K is slow and MO standing throw catchable but safer and not Asura punished.

Short list:

WRBB-Asura punished on first B only.
2A+B-Asura punished.
11B-Asura punished.
4A+K-Beats Asura.

And doc, IMO you can't play a safe game against Kilik or he wins most of the time. You have to control the match at all costs even if it means taking some risks. Kilik's opponent has to dictate how the match is gonna be.

And another thing, avoid throwing too much against Kilik. I play Setsuka, Algol, Ivy and Tira and I only attempt throws with Ivy. SS/CS risk/reward is worth it but even Setsuka who has a strong throw game, the risk/reward isn't in her favor. At least Setsuka can punish Asura big, Algol always dictates the flow and Tira has 6K who is a very good anti-Kilik.

At least with Cervantes, all 3 parts of Asura on block are 3B punishable and B+K too.
 
I also played against Oof's Kilik, but offline. The thing is that Oof has a good reaction in use with Asura so with that in mind, it changed the way I normally play Cervantes.

I used what Kowtow recommends ie. b2 and a lot of kicks. bK is still helpful to me.

I agree that I have to limit my grabs as Asura can hop over them.
 
franman said:
I also played against Oof's Kilik, but offline. The thing is that Oof has a good reaction in use with Asura so with that in mind, it changed the way I normally play Cervantes.

I used what Kowtow recommends ie. b2 and a lot of kicks. bK is still helpful to me.

I agree that I have to limit my grabs as Asura can hop over them.
Click to expand...

The main problem is that the majority of your kicks and b2 as well lose to Kilik WS B. You can step WS B easily if they do it immediately out of crouch, but doing it on reaction when they do it instantly is hard. It also obviously pushes back on guard a lot, and does a good chunk of gauge damage for such a strong move.

Only reason Asura is so dangerous is because many of the moves that beat it, lose hard to random WS B's. So he really can shut down almost all your options by just randomly choosing between these two moves. If it wasn't for the soul gauge damage on WS B, you could afford to be patient, but......
 
Angrel-San said:
Docvizzo-I'm not a Cervantes player so I don't know his frame data by heart. In fact, fuck Cervantes!!!

However, we have a common threat in Kilik. That's why I got into this thread. I have seen some nice setups against Kilik as long as he's in FC.

Tested your moves and yes, 66B hits but it's got to be spot on. It's still 18 dmg so no big deal. The part where MO throws reach is true if Cervantes recovers blocking after. If he does WRBB again he gets hit. MO throws from FC don't reach, it's the standing MO one.

2A+B has it worse. It's safer and Cervantes recovers crouching but on block both MO throws setups catch him if he blocks after. You have to commit to a WR attack for this not to happen and Kilik can WRB out of all WR options before.

11B seems interesting although still a mid and slow. Pushblock makes both MO throw setups whiff so that's nice.

4A+K is slow and MO standing throw catchable but safer and not Asura punished.

Short list:

WRBB-Asura punished on first B only.
2A+B-Asura punished.
11B-Asura punished.
4A+K-Beats Asura.

And doc, IMO you can't play a safe game against Kilik or he wins most of the time. You have to control the match at all costs even if it means taking some risks. Kilik's opponent has to dictate how the match is gonna be.

And another thing, avoid throwing too much against Kilik. I play Setsuka, Algol, Ivy and Tira and I only attempt throws with Ivy. SS/CS risk/reward is worth it but even Setsuka who has a strong throw game, the risk/reward isn't in her favor. At least Setsuka can punish Asura big, Algol always dictates the flow and Tira has 6K who is a very good anti-Kilik.

At least with Cervantes, all 3 parts of Asura on block are 3B punishable and B+K too.
Click to expand...

3B is -19 on block. its a good asura punisher ( well maybe not against me ) for over 54 dmg.
you could also go for 66B or 66 A+B (need to check)
 
Maybe I'm not understanding...but if they're spamming butt-loads of WS b,b's......

Why not use his auto-counter and just teleport behind him, but I'm just gonna consider that maybe that's not a good idea?
 
B_Evans said:
Maybe I'm not understanding...but if they're spamming butt-loads of WS b,b's......

Why not use his auto-counter and just teleport behind him, but I'm just gonna consider that maybe that's not a good idea?
Click to expand...

If you predict that they're going to WS B, you may as well just step it and punish with 3b. Not everyone has the same predictable timing you'll find in online players, it's not easy to just sit on moves like that.

Example: A Kilik player could do either B, or 2b, and have them blocked. One leaves you standing, one leaves you crouching. B can lead into Asura, 2b can lead into WS B. If the player is using this tactic repeatedly, with no variation in timing, it's easy to sidestep both followups and punish with free damage (something the b+k counter doesn't always offer.) However since experienced players will vary their timing, and when they use these moves, this isn't as simple as saying "this beats this" all the time.

This holds true for many characters, however nobody else in the game right now has two moves that you can say shut down almost your entire movelist. With the evasion and pushback on block present in WS B, and the all mid auto GI + 70 damage (!!!) of Asura, Kilik has this against Cervy. Most of his kicks/b2 simply can't handle WS B spam. This wasn't a problem with Asura's old GI properties, no idea why they changed it, but it's quickly becoming clear that they need to change it back.
 
That is true. Unfortunately for me...I'm stubborn.......

Example: I have extremely good reflexes -- unfortunately that doesn't mean anything online since there's always this awkward amount of latency nipping at your heels. (Literally, you can see a low coming, and STILL get hit by it.)

So I tend to use those counter moves ENOUGH in my game that I'm efficient with them and have strats with them...however, like you said online is a different story. It's kinda glitchy.

Gotta K.I.S.S it (keep it simple, stupid).

However, I've NEVER played any good Kilik players. Like ever. So I don't know what a good kilik does that'd keep Cervantes at bay? The WS bb is good, coz that second hit has some tracking on it. But like I said, ...I've never played a good kilik. Just scrub-tastic ones who like to mash the same 4 moves over and over again. :(

And because of that, I have this over-exaggerated notion that I can simple parry what they do, get in close, and handle business.
 
Millionz said:
Good thread kowtow. This matchup is so annoying. What can Kilik punish aB with? 46B?
Click to expand...

More, 66b at least. If not his own aB as wing zero suggested in the tier thread, 20 somethin damage and + frames, I guess he can punish that even from long range. I didn't realize aB was i14 and that good of a punisher, so his punishment game isn't even as bad as I thought. I really wouldn't worry about the + frames though, as far back as aB pushes you. He's still got shitty mixups from that range.

B_Evans, a lot of new players get into that mode of wanting to parry/auto counter everything, and it's often reinforced by playing less experienced competition, so that's understandable. Again it stems mostly from opponents not varying their timing on anything, and attacking immediately when put in many situations. I had a similar problem in that I'd only played old school Kilik players up to this point, who didn't fully abuse these two moves. Well, not Asura at least. Changing the GI properties of that move may have seemed like a minor thing at the time, but it may be one of the worst things they could have done to this game, in retrospect.

And yes, I was the one yelling on the internet that Asura wasn't a broken move, foot in mouth.
 
Lol, we should start another poll to get Kilik banned. Anyway, I had literally forgot about Kilik's aB, so I'll have to check it out to see what moves it can punish at what range.
 
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