What makes a character "top tier"?

[Sp1d3r]

This seemingly easy question might have more to it and I'm curious what makes a character better than another. How can someone like Omega climb to the top of the board using Zasalamel(low tier) ? Is it step, evasion properties, SG damage? What will determine a tier in SC5 with the addition of brave edge and critical finish moves?

 

[sheppard]

For casual players likes of me, top tier charcater is unpridictible moves, extremely high damage, speed or range with very easy inputs. Top tiers easily perform CF's, ringouts. Tons of moves with stunning properties. Very easy, high damage stun combos.

Edit : About SCV, I hope it will be very well balanced, I don't wanna think otherwise.

 

[IvyFanboy]

What determines top tiers is 2 factors and 2 factors only:

1. Their matchup charts
2. How they play in the hands of a top tier player

Tiers are NEVER based on casual level. The goal is always to assume how the character will fare in the highest level of play and what causes tiers to change is discovery of new tech and results we see when a new player carries the character further than we knew possible.

What makes determining tiers hard though is sometimes a character may have options, but they may be extremely difficult to make use of and until you see a player master them it's hard to factor them in. You also have to wonder if that player would do better with another character, EX: if Omega used say Voldo instead of Zas, would he have done even better?

Casuals have a skewed idea of tiers and will often equate an easy character to top tier. So C. Viper to a casual in SSF4 may rank lower than she should in SSF4 because casuals wont be seeing her at high level play do to her learning curve.

 

[lespaulphoenix]

Welll, from what i've been told (commence robot playback 10010011110110one1100zero1112334... 2334?)

I would think its the tools the character has at their disposal and how effective the tools are. Amy comes to mind, here. Some guys who arent so good look like they are because Amy has alot of good stuff, (and in the hands of really good players, Amy is hell on earth.)
But, when it comes to someone like Omega tearing shit up with a "low tier" character, I would be inclined to believe that Omega is a better Zas. player than the other guys were with theirs. (No disrespect to these other players, I'm well aware i am shit at this game compared to you.) I mean, while tiers do exist and some characters have safer or better tools in their arsenal, it all comes down to the player and their use of the character. This reminds me of my music motto: Perfect Practice=Perfect Results.

Playback complete. Commence correction from better players... 10011011100111000101010001zero11101

 

[Fuzzieviking]

Top tier characters generally have decent damage output, low risk high reward opportunities, decent range, good step killers and step, and good frames.

Omega is a top tier player using a low tier character. Similar to Kura for talim. Character ignorance is a powerful thing, and when you are really good with a character people seldom know, you are in a pretty decent place.

I find that SG damage really doesn't account for much since top tier players generally avoid getting soul crushed pretty decently.

 

[WARUI_NE]

top tier is different for every game a top tier in a game like ST may still have bad match ups
in SC4 a top tier doesn't really have any....cept maybe asta....he does pretty well against the top tiers

 

[Sp1d3r]

To me top tier vs low tier means that a character’s choices severely limit the other character’s choices to the point that the opponent is now predictable. If my single choice shuts down a large % of your choices, and many of my moves do this, then your character is physically limited and incapable to defeat my character.

 

[BrewtusBibulus]

Top tier means much better options relative to the rest of the cast. Like Vanilla SF4 Sagat was nothing that special outside of his sick damage. But that was enough to make him top tier, because other characters simply had to guess right 1-2 more times to end a round.

The difference in tiers is just a couple guesses in some games. So Omega for example can still win with Zas because he can outguess people enough to succeed with a deficit from matchups/tiers

 

[d3v]

In the strictest sense, being top tier simply means that a character has a greater number of good/advantageous match-ups against the rest of the cast. Which is the whole point of the thing. Tier lists are useless without the accompanying matchup chart.

The only long time tournament calibre fighting game that I recall didn't use a matchup chart for its tier list was MvC2... only because the matchup chart was saved for the teams tiers

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Speed, safety, damage (single hits as well as stun/juggle combos), range, mix-up potential, Versatility of move-list, and unpredictability.

Or, you could simplify this and just say "how many of my moves trump his moves if both players are at neutral frames?". It just so happens that the top tier characters have many moves that come first, or trump them by evasion properties or what-have-you. Even massive damage on some moves mean very little if you can't even land the move in the first place. Astaroth's 22_88 B4, followed by 2,8 B+G is an example of a combo that does MASSIVE damage, but is not very practical due to the fact that 22_88 B almost never lands in the first place, at least against anyone with any skill whatsoever.

Or perhaps even simpler than that, simply look at the risk/reward for the characters moves. Also, # of moves in the move list should be factored in as well. Characters with fewer moves are more predictable.

But to be honest, as I'm writing this, it suddenly came to me:

Ever notive that ALL high tier characters tend to be the safest? (Sophi, Amy, Ivy, setsuka, voldo, yoshi).... Seems to me like safety is the #1 factor here.

To win with a low tier VS a high tier, you have to make twice as many good decisions as the other player. Sure, you can still win, but it's an uphill battle for sure. As a Sieg and NM main, I'm used to fighting unfavorable match-ups. Playing a low tiered character may potentially make you a better player ONLY BECAUSE you're forced to make good decisions more than the other guy.

Many people say that what separates a good player from a bad player is not offense, but defense. Anyone can string moves together and be aggressive, but defense is a bit harder to master IMO. So if defense outshines offense, then it only makes sense that the best characters are the safest ones.

If your gonna insult me for my opinions, I'm gonna ignore you.

 

[dracono99]

imho saftey and speed make a char top teir if ur char is unsafe a fast char can hit u b4 u do anything else they can also better capitalise on gis but most important is player skill like keev's nightmare is hell on earth

 

[damn-I-Suck]

If both players have equal skill, then it comes down to character choice. This is why my Sieg can't hang with my friends IVY, but when I switch to CASS, all of a sudden I'm winning more than losing. Am I better with CASS than I am with Sieg? Doubtful, considering Sieg was the first character I ever played (sc2 NM was more like Sieg than NM is now). The point is, when you reach a certain level of play, the only thing holding you back is your character, not you.

I don't care how good you are at SC, NOBODY is gonna win a tournament with ROCK. Even Nightmare, who is most likely in the mid-tier range, has anyone ever won a tournament recently using NM? You rarely even SEE a NM in a tournament these days, let alone actually winning. The only time I saw NM winning a tournament was way back when the game was just released, so it was before a lot of things were discovered, including anti-NM tactics.

It's pretty much only top-tiers who make it in the top in tournaments with rare exceptions. If that doesn't speak volumes about the legitimacy of tier lists, I don't know what does.

In the past I made the bold claim that tiers don't exist, but I know better now. I hope that they really go out on a limb with sc5 for balance with EXTENSIVE testing. I'm not asking for perfect 5-5 match-ups all day long, but no more than 6-4's please. It should be an embarrassment to namco that the past 3 games were so horribly unbalanced (sc2 included).

 

[damn-I-Suck]

The reason Ivy is top tier?
1)longest range in the game
2) Some of the fastest short range moves in the game, with a plethora of stuns/combos/juggles, all high damage.
3) 2 command throws that have significantly higher damage than normal throws.
4) low sweep kick that ducks under mids, followed by kick to the groin while on the ground.
5) her ducking moves hardly take any frames to duck, aka insta-duck.
6) She is pretty safe for the most part.
7) insane push-back on long range moves make it hard to close the distance.
8) her overall speed, range and damage ratio is slanted far too high in her favor.
9) Daishi (mispelled) himself stated that "Ivy is indeed too powerful in sc4, we will try to balance her in sc5".
10) she is pretty much always winning or placing high in tournaments. Once there was a tournament where the top 6 players were all Ivy's... no lie.

With the exception of Hilde and MAYBE algol, She is IMHO the strongest character in the game.

 

[Synraii]

The reason Ivy is top tier?
1)long range LINEAR pokes
2) Some of the fastest short range moves in SWORD STATE ONLY, with a plethora of stuns/combos/juggles, all high damage AND MOSTLY DEPENDANT ON CH'S.
3) 2 command throws that are SIMILAIR DAMAGE TO SOPHIE LEFT SIDE THROW AND VERY SIMILAIR TO ASTA'S B COMMAND THROW, WITH ONLY ONE AT MOST BEING AVAILABLE AT ANY POINT.
4) low sweep kick that ducks under SOME mids, followed by kick to the groin while on the ground.
5) her ducking moves hardly take any frames to duck, aka insta-duck. (SUCH AS?)
6) She is HARD TO PUNISH, BUT NOT OVERLY SAFE.
7) insane push-back on long range, UNSAFE AND SLOW moves make it hard to close the distance.
8) her overall speed, range and damage ratio is slanted far too high in her favor. BUT SHE CAN'T PUNISH WELL AND HER MOVMENT IS RESTRICTED OUTSIDE OF CL.
9) Daishi (mispelled) himself stated that "Ivy is indeed too powerful in sc4, we will try to balance her in sc5". HE SPELLED IT CORRECTLY, TOO IS USED WHEN DESCRIBING SOMETHING AS EXCESSIVE.
10) she is pretty much always winning or placing high in tournaments. Once there was a tournament where the top 6 players were all Ivy's... no lie. IN THIS TOURNAMENT, THERE WERE ONLY 6 PLAYERS, LOL.

With the exception of Hilde and MAYBE algol, She is IMHO the strongest character in the game.

Fixed for you with my CAPS LOCK marker pen. =)
And I'm not defending the whore, I hate her to, but if you're going to explain why she's top tier, get it right man. =P

. Even Nightmare, who is most likely in the mid-tier range, has anyone ever won a tournament recently using NM? You rarely even SEE a NM in a tournament these days, let alone actually winning. The only time I saw NM winning a tournament was way back when the game was just released, so it was before a lot of things were discovered, including anti-NM tactics.

You ever heard of Keev? You know, the french NM player who has beaten Thugish Pond's Amy and to this day continues to both place in any tournament he enters and is considered by many European players to have the best defence game in the world? =)

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Fixed for you with my CAPS LOCK marker pen. =)
And I'm not defending the whore, I hate her to, but if you're going to explain why she's top tier, get it right man. =P

You ever heard of Keev? You know, the french NM player who has beaten Thugish Pond's Amy and to this day continues to both place in any tournament he enters and is considered by many European players to have the best defence game in the world? =)

1) her long range "linear" pokes track like a bitch
2) I can agree with you on this one. Mostly dependant on CH, yes, but isn't most characters combos dependent on CH anyway? seems kinda moot to bring that up.
3) I'm not comparing her throws to other characters throws, just comparing them to her basic throws, which have much higher damage.
4) As far as I can tell, I have NEVER been able to catch her with a mid when shes trying that low sweep kick. And BTW, I'm not talking about vertical mids, they should always hit in this scenario, I'm talking about horizontal mids, such as Sieg's 3A.
5) I'm not sure about the command (I don't use her), but the move I'm thinking of is I believe 6B+K, it's the move where she is in sword stance and she slowly lunges forward with a mid stab, that turns into an "attack throw". This move, I swear to god is insta-duck. The move itself is slow, the it ducks practically as soon as you hit the button LOL. Say for example were both at neutral frame advantage (none), I (Sieg) do 6A, which is a fairly fast high horizontal, Ivy does 6B+K (might be wrong command) at the same exact moment as my attack, guess what, She "insta-ducks" my attack and gets her attack throw counter bullshit. There are other examples with even faster horizontal highs against other characters, but I'm not gonna get into it right now. Now granted, the move is easily sidestepped, but that doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.
6) "for the most part safe", and "hard to punish, but not overly safe", to me those 2 sentences mean the same thing, or similar anyway. Sounds like we agree here.
7) How exactly is a move "unsafe" if the push-back is high enough that you don't have a move that reaches that far, to retaliate? Push-back makes moves safe (with exceptions).
8) She can't punish well?? are you kidding me?? What's that move where she knee's you then brings out her whip to send you to the ground? That move pretty much punishes almost everything Sieg has. Even when I'm using CASS, aside from AA's and BB's, there isn't much that I have that is faster than that fucking bullshit Knee to whip you to the ground move. Granted, the knee has low range, but it's insanely fast.
9) Okay I used the wrong "too". Sue me for bad grammar when this is all over.
10) This I did not know. But the fact still remains: 6 players, 6 Ivy's.

Now, normally, I don't like to write all that in a post, but since you asked for a more thorough explanation, here it is.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Yes I have heard of Keev. He is an awesome player, no doubt. He is the exception, not the rule. I said NM rarely wins, I didn't say NEVER. You can't look at one exception and say "I told you so", when in reality the majority of NM players at tournaments never place very high.

 

[Synraii]

1) her long range "linear" pokes track like a bitch

No they don't: CL 6A+B has no tracking, WP 6B has no tracking, WP 6B+K has no tracking, WP FC 3B has no tracking, WP 22B has no tracking.

2) I can agree with you on this one. Mostly dependant on CH, yes, but isn't most characters combos dependent on CH anyway? seems kinda moot to bring that up.

Not really - look at Amy, Kilik or Sophitia, they can easily get their damage on NH. Very important to outline the differance imho.

3) I'm not comparing her throws to other characters throws, just comparing them to her basic throws, which have much higher damage.

Yes - that is the point of any command throw, what's your point? (Ignoring Asta 63214:B+G - but the tiny break window is the point of that.)

4) As far as I can tell, I have NEVER been able to catch her with a mid when shes trying that low sweep kick. And BTW, I'm not talking about vertical mids, they should always hit in this scenario, I'm talking about horizontal mids, such as Sieg's 3A.

You could say the same about Voldo's BS 1A - STC safe fast KND low vs. Sieg. Simple answer is don't use 3A if you think they'll throw it out, its your job as a player to beat evasion tactics - more 3(B). Though I am curious why you used Sieg as an exaple when 3A is his ONLY horizontal mid out of stance, lol.

5) I'm not sure about the command (I don't use her), but the move I'm thinking of is I believe [SW 6A+B], it's the move where she is in sword stance and she slowly lunges forward with a mid stab, that turns into an "attack throw". This move, I swear to god is insta-duck. The move itself is slow, the it ducks practically as soon as you hit the button LOL. Say for example were both at neutral frame advantage (none), I (Sieg) do 6A, which is a fairly fast high horizontal, Ivy does [SW 6A+B] (might be wrong command) at the same exact moment as my attack, guess what, She "insta-ducks" my attack and gets her attack throw counter bullshit. There are other examples with even faster horizontal highs against other characters, but I'm not gonna get into it right now. Now granted, the move is easily sidestepped, but that doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.

Fixed the notation for you. =)
Is Sieg 3B bullkshit then? Because with the example you described, any TC starting on or before frame 15 would beat 6A_6[A] and Sieg 3B starts on frame 4. SW 6A+B is perfectly balanced, in fact its a bad move: Its slow as fuck, you could GI this on reaction easily if you wanted to, has no tracking, heavy whiff recovery and piss poor range compared to CL 6A+B (And I don't know where you get your info from, but I promise the TC is not super early on SW 6A+B). Other examples of slow moves that would beat the above situation include: Cassandra 1A, Mitsurugi 33B and Kilik 2A+K. All would have you on your ass and deal noticable damage.

6) "for the most part safe", and "hard to punish, but not overly safe", to me those 2 sentences mean the same thing, or similar anyway. Sounds like we agree here.

You can't call her mostly safe, because many of her tools in terms of frames (which is the defenition of safe/unsafe) are technically unsafe, but they are a complete nightmare to punish and can be made 'safe' through range. I only pulled you up on this, because safety and safety through range are two differant things.

7) How exactly is a move "unsafe" if the push-back is high enough that you don't have a move that reaches that far, to retaliate? Push-back makes moves safe (with exceptions).

Just because a move is unsafe on frames doesn't mean you're free and clear to keep attacking if pushback spares you punishment, allow me to explain:
Ivy vs. Sieg - Ivy uses WP 6B+K8 at close range, which Sieg blocks - I get nothing here BUT I do get A 20SOMETHING FRAME OPENING WHERE SHE CAN DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So take advantage. (It can also be GI'd on reaction. =/)

8) She can't punish well?? are you kidding me?? What's that move where she knee's you then brings out her whip to send you to the ground? That move pretty much punishes almost everything Sieg has. Even when I'm using CASS, aside from AA's and BB's, there isn't much that I have that is faster than that fucking bullshit Knee to whip you to the ground move. Granted, the knee has low range, but it's insanely fast.

Umm - do you know what punishing is? because 1KB only KND's on CH. Take a look at a full list of Ivy's punishers:
SW standing:

i13 = 1K
i13 - K
i13 - 6B8K
i14 - 6B
i15 - BB
i15 - 2K
i16 - 6K

SW crouching

i13 - 6B8K
i14- 6B
i15 - WS K
i15 - FCK
i16 - 6K
i17 - WS B

CL standing

i13 - K
i14 - AA
i15 - 2K
i16 - 6K

CL crouching

i15 - WSK
i15 - FC K
i16 - 6K
i19 - WS B

WP standing

i13 - K
i15 - 2K
i16 - 3A/6K

WP crouching

i15 - WSK
i15 - FC K
i16 - 6K
i20 - WS B

Note:

- i13 K is negative on hit in each stance
- In CL and WP it's also possible to do 8kB glitch, which is the same as SW 8B+K,K but comes out 1 frame slower, so it's i14. It's very difficult to do consistently and has a lot of risk involved (comes out as 8B if you miss it)

Now does that look like a top punisher to you? Because it looks like a bad punisher to me. Defenitely the biggest hole in her game, another reason why its important to outline CH characters, because they generally suck at punishing due to punishes being NH.

9) Okay I used the wrong "too". Sue me for bad grammar when this is all over.

Lol.

10) This I did not know. But the fact still remains: 6 players, 6 Ivy's.

Yes, because 6 Ivy players decided to have a round robin among themselves for fun - round robins are tournaments, but c'mon - if they only let in Ivy players you can't really use it to discredit her, y'know?

Yes I have heard of Keev. He is an awesome player, no doubt. He is the exception, not the rule. I said NM rarely wins, I didn't say NEVER. You can't look at one exception and say "I told you so", when in reality the majority of NM players at tournaments never place very high.

Which is entirely thier own fault: One player is all you need to disprove the rule that whoever cannot win in tournaments - Keev proved it was perfectly possible with NM, I put it to you that anyone who says NM CANNOT win in competitive play is simply in need of more practice. If Keev can do it with an identical set of tools, anyone can - they just need to put the extra work in, which of course most players aren't prepared to do. =/

 

[damn-I-Suck]

So are you just gonna "fix" everything I say, cas' you disagree?

We both agree Ivy is a cunt, I don't even know why were debating anymore.

NM is mid tier, end of discussion. Just because one guy wins with him, doesn't mean he's all-of-a-sudden top tier. It just means that Keev, is THAT much better than his opponents.

 

[Synraii]

So are you just gonna "fix" everything I say, cas' you disagree?

If by fix you mean Answer every part of your post individually, then yes.
Why are you slating me for fixing a notation that you yourself said you didn't know anyway?

We both agree Ivy is a cunt, I don't even know why were debating anymore.

I believe you made reasons why Ivy was top tier, which although understandable, were in some cases misleading and at one point just plain wrong, so I pulled you up on them and altered the points slightly so they were concise.
As for the 'Ivy is a cunt', that really isn't the point of the thread - what makes a character 'top tier?' is not a synonym for lets hate on top tiers.

NM is mid tier, end of discussion. Just because one guy wins with him, doesn't mean he's all-of-a-sudden top tier. It just means that Keev, is THAT much better than his opponents.

I'm sorry, we were discussing this at all, or rather, this was debatable? Of course he's bloody mid tier.

damn-I-Suck said: ↑

. Even Nightmare, who is most likely in the mid-tier range, has anyone ever won a tournament recently using NM? You rarely even SEE a NM in a tournament these days, let alone actually winning. The only time I saw NM winning a tournament was way back when the game was just released, so it was before a lot of things were discovered, including anti-NM tactics​

This was what I was debating: you stated (and wrongly) that mid tier characters are hardly represented and never place at high level. To which I responded 'bollocks' and used Keev as a living example. I could have also used: Kira, Pantocrator, Mick, MTFighter, Belial, RTD etc etc.​

At no point did I debate NM's rating on the tier list, please get your facts straight.​

 

[damn-I-Suck]

I still hold to what I said earlier:
NM RARELY places high in tournaments. One guy, (keev) doesn't prove a damn thing. Keev is just THAT good.

I literally laughed out loud when you said RTD. Let's see, he started using HILDE, who is totally broken, then switched to apprentice, a character that quite literally cannot be thrown as long as they have force meter. I personally believe that a character that cannot be thrown is unbalanced for tournament play, but hey, I don't run tournaments so who what do I know. Aside from apprentice's BS throw break, he's still a turtling monster with some of the best punishers in the game. Oh and did I mention the cheesiest BB in the game? Given that, how EXACTLY is he NOT high tier? He's got everything a high tier character has, and then some.

Did Mick use X? X is definitely better than MID. To be fair, upper mid.

As far as the other people you mentioned, I have no idea.

You did notice I used the word "recently" right?. Show me a tournament that happened in the last 6 months where nightmare won.