I really feel for guys like yourself, who have no competition outside of online. However, you just have to accept that, sometimes, the winner will not be the better player. This is sometimes true offline, and online only increases the random occurrence that you may lose to someone who is not better than you. You just have to accept this. It's like being the best team in the NFL, but losing an entire game because of a bad ref call.
Why do people spam
- Thread starter xman31
- Start date
I really feel for guys like yourself, who have no competition outside of online. However, you just have to accept that, sometimes, the winner will not be the better player. This is sometimes true offline, and online only increases the random occurrence that you may lose to someone who is not better than you. You just have to accept this. It's like being the best team in the NFL, but losing an entire game because of a bad ref call.
Karama
[08] Mercenary
Couldn't of put it better
Karama
[08] Mercenary
Yes it did..
Okay I'll try to explain without talking down.
If you buffer the game state for online play, including your inputs, there is a latency issue. This means you never get to respond to the frame you see on the screen, you get to place your input into a queue that is representative of your input at "some time in the future" That's called latency. Soul Calibur is built around gameplay where you play according to what you see. There's a buffer to get moves in, but that's a fixed buffer time. When you're talking about online play instead you see this latency issue and you're playing a make believe game where you anticipate instead of react.
Now, if you take the gamestate and you remove this fake game and instead force the game to react to inputs based on your current visual representation of the game that means two players can be responding to different points in time in the game at the same time(because to have adequate gamespeeds you need asynchronous communication). Why is this difficult? It's difficult because at some point one player responds to an invalid gamestate. So you have to make a massive effort to then synchronize the two different gamestates through some sort of collision detection (I'm trying to use commonly known CS terms here so hopefully if you don't know them you can look them up) But then you look at Soul Calibur 4 online and you discover hey...they didn't do ANYTHING like that. So the game is broken online and nobody who's high tier at Soul Calibur has much respect for online as anything other than a medium for exchanging ideas and different methods of interaction and strategies.
Thus, when you play a high tier player they expect you to exchange your ideas and interactions and strategies without abusing the bad game design. When high tier players encounter abusive players the only way to counteract the abuse is by effectively abusing the game design as well, but then you don't need a brain to do that because you're playing with strict anticipation and you're playing out a game YOU CANNOT SEE. Well...you see it...but not when you're playing it you see it about a half second after you play it. One example would be the online parry...you want to do it but unless the stars align on your US ghettonet connection you won't be getting reactive parries you'll be training anticipatory parries which aren't very useful offline. So you have to slow yourself down to exchange information and interact with your opponent online. Sure, this takes down your win ratio but in exchange...in exchange you get to play someone who shares their information with you and hopefully enjoys the interaction more than the rams-butting-heads approach of spam vs spam. Soul Calibur is an interactive versus fight, a 1v1, but online made the reactionary aspect of online play almost nonexistent for i15 and faster moves. Thus, if you restrict your moveset and strategy to respect the flaws of the game you "have honor" as far as I am concerned, and you're playing a more fun game (relatively speaking) in terms of what I expect to get out of Soul Calibur and what was initially designed in Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast. In fact, I would say the initial designers of Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast would cry if they tried to play online. They'd literally put their head between their legs and bawl like a baby at what's become of their masterpiece (perfect 10)
If you buffer the game state for online play, including your inputs, there is a latency issue. This means you never get to respond to the frame you see on the screen, you get to place your input into a queue that is representative of your input at "some time in the future" That's called latency. Soul Calibur is built around gameplay where you play according to what you see. There's a buffer to get moves in, but that's a fixed buffer time. When you're talking about online play instead you see this latency issue and you're playing a make believe game where you anticipate instead of react.
Now, if you take the gamestate and you remove this fake game and instead force the game to react to inputs based on your current visual representation of the game that means two players can be responding to different points in time in the game at the same time(because to have adequate gamespeeds you need asynchronous communication). Why is this difficult? It's difficult because at some point one player responds to an invalid gamestate. So you have to make a massive effort to then synchronize the two different gamestates through some sort of collision detection (I'm trying to use commonly known CS terms here so hopefully if you don't know them you can look them up) But then you look at Soul Calibur 4 online and you discover hey...they didn't do ANYTHING like that. So the game is broken online and nobody who's high tier at Soul Calibur has much respect for online as anything other than a medium for exchanging ideas and different methods of interaction and strategies.
Thus, when you play a high tier player they expect you to exchange your ideas and interactions and strategies without abusing the bad game design. When high tier players encounter abusive players the only way to counteract the abuse is by effectively abusing the game design as well, but then you don't need a brain to do that because you're playing with strict anticipation and you're playing out a game YOU CANNOT SEE. Well...you see it...but not when you're playing it you see it about a half second after you play it. One example would be the online parry...you want to do it but unless the stars align on your US ghettonet connection you won't be getting reactive parries you'll be training anticipatory parries which aren't very useful offline. So you have to slow yourself down to exchange information and interact with your opponent online. Sure, this takes down your win ratio but in exchange...in exchange you get to play someone who shares their information with you and hopefully enjoys the interaction more than the rams-butting-heads approach of spam vs spam. Soul Calibur is an interactive versus fight, a 1v1, but online made the reactionary aspect of online play almost nonexistent for i15 and faster moves. Thus, if you restrict your moveset and strategy to respect the flaws of the game you "have honor" as far as I am concerned, and you're playing a more fun game (relatively speaking) in terms of what I expect to get out of Soul Calibur and what was initially designed in Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast. In fact, I would say the initial designers of Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast would cry if they tried to play online. They'd literally put their head between their legs and bawl like a baby at what's become of their masterpiece (perfect 10)
Alright, that all makes sense, but I seriously think people are overthinking online play. I don't see any point in "honor fighting", because that isn't any more Soul Calibur than lag exploitation. It's just an opposite extreme in response to the same problem.
The main reason I've found not to spam is not out of a sense of honor, or because it's "boring", but because it ultimately makes more sense to attempt a better move, and fail, than to not do so and teach myself bad habits. For example, I can spam BB every time I get frame advantage with Setsuka and whittle down my opponent's health little by little (accomplishing nothing in the process), or I can attempt 1B:B or 2A+B, and even if I fail, I can see how the mind game would have applied to this person. No, it's not perfect, but I can then experiment with the same setup offline and see how well it does (or doesn't) work.
As I said before, no matter who you are, you're going to adjust for lag whether consciously or subconsciously. However, I don't see the point in completely changing your playstyle just so that you can mindlessly spam and win at the game or restrict yourself and "have fun". In the end, they're the same flawed response to the same problem, with neither being a better solution than the other.
The main reason I've found not to spam is not out of a sense of honor, or because it's "boring", but because it ultimately makes more sense to attempt a better move, and fail, than to not do so and teach myself bad habits. For example, I can spam BB every time I get frame advantage with Setsuka and whittle down my opponent's health little by little (accomplishing nothing in the process), or I can attempt 1B:B or 2A+B, and even if I fail, I can see how the mind game would have applied to this person. No, it's not perfect, but I can then experiment with the same setup offline and see how well it does (or doesn't) work.
As I said before, no matter who you are, you're going to adjust for lag whether consciously or subconsciously. However, I don't see the point in completely changing your playstyle just so that you can mindlessly spam and win at the game or restrict yourself and "have fun". In the end, they're the same flawed response to the same problem, with neither being a better solution than the other.
Fuzion
[09] Warrior
And this is why we don't listen to warble. He's a know-nothing troll who somehow, after months of release and online play, is still playing theory fighter about what online WOULD be like instead of actually experiencing it and seeing that all his theories are FALSE. Let me pick out a few gems from your post in particular, because im not replying to that giant wall of shit:
"When high tier players encounter abusive players the only way to counteract the abuse is by effectively abusing the game design as well,"
False. I routinely beat the mitsus and other lag abusers without stooping down to use the same tactics. There is more than one way to beat that stuff, fighting abuse with abuse is not the ONLY way.
"One example would be the online parry...you want to do it but unless the stars align on your US ghettonet connection you won't be getting reactive parries you'll be training anticipatory parries which aren't very useful offline."
Not a word of this is even remotely accurate. A. TONS of people GI on anticipation OFFLINE. You think it isn't "very useful" then you must be a huge noob. B. GI is not nearly as difficult online as people think it is, they just aren't used to it. The window is shifted and you must GI earlier. BentLeet GI's my lizardman WS K,K (2nd part) on reaction on the internet: Explain. I can GI kilik's B,B (second hit) on reaction online: Explain.
Stop posting in here, warble. This topic is way beyond you.
"When high tier players encounter abusive players the only way to counteract the abuse is by effectively abusing the game design as well,"
False. I routinely beat the mitsus and other lag abusers without stooping down to use the same tactics. There is more than one way to beat that stuff, fighting abuse with abuse is not the ONLY way.
"One example would be the online parry...you want to do it but unless the stars align on your US ghettonet connection you won't be getting reactive parries you'll be training anticipatory parries which aren't very useful offline."
Not a word of this is even remotely accurate. A. TONS of people GI on anticipation OFFLINE. You think it isn't "very useful" then you must be a huge noob. B. GI is not nearly as difficult online as people think it is, they just aren't used to it. The window is shifted and you must GI earlier. BentLeet GI's my lizardman WS K,K (2nd part) on reaction on the internet: Explain. I can GI kilik's B,B (second hit) on reaction online: Explain.
Stop posting in here, warble. This topic is way beyond you.
@KingZeal
Well one is interactive and the other is not. That's a damn good reason for me not to spam online. I'm trying to play against a PERSON.
@forum troll (fuzion)
Hey...moron...if you're Gi-ing the second part of a combo it's anticipatory and if you didn't continue WS K with a second K you'd see him GI the air. Same with kilik's B, B. The only thing that is beyond anyone is your lack of understanding of game design and high level gameplay. "he Gi's the second attack of my weaksauce 2 hit combo ON REACTION ON THE INTERNET" No...that's anticipation. Go look up anticipation in the dictionary, kid. Don't tell people who know what's up they are clueless...it makes you seem like a complete moron. "seem" Okay, nevermind you don't seem like a moron you just are. My post is concise, descriptive and has numerous points you could have responded to. Instead you bust out the dick and start waving. Ooooh look it's another e-penis I've NEVER seen one of THOSE before.
Well one is interactive and the other is not. That's a damn good reason for me not to spam online. I'm trying to play against a PERSON.
@forum troll (fuzion)
Hey...moron...if you're Gi-ing the second part of a combo it's anticipatory and if you didn't continue WS K with a second K you'd see him GI the air. Same with kilik's B, B. The only thing that is beyond anyone is your lack of understanding of game design and high level gameplay. "he Gi's the second attack of my weaksauce 2 hit combo ON REACTION ON THE INTERNET" No...that's anticipation. Go look up anticipation in the dictionary, kid. Don't tell people who know what's up they are clueless...it makes you seem like a complete moron. "seem" Okay, nevermind you don't seem like a moron you just are. My post is concise, descriptive and has numerous points you could have responded to. Instead you bust out the dick and start waving. Ooooh look it's another e-penis I've NEVER seen one of THOSE before.
Fuzion
[09] Warrior
Concise.. LOL. Anyways, my point about WS K,K is that he is reacting to seeing the first K come out and you're right, he guesses to impact a second one. My point is that you can still GI online in what you described as "you see it about a half second after you play it". Really? So he buffered that GI in response to my first WS K by 30 frames in advance? Get the fuck out of here fool. That was a minor example. Kilik's B,B I listed next because it was even more specific. You're dead wrong about it. You can impact the second B 100% on reaction online. After you block the first one, do you know what his options are? Another B, or nothing. If you see him winding up immediately after the first one, another B is coming for sure. That's called GI "on reaction".
Please continue arguing with me so I can expose you once and for all. Maybe when all is said and done we can take it online and have a third party watch while I scrape you 10-0. I will intentionally play in such a way as to embarass you and shatter your theories. I will beat you with the most simple shit while you can mitsu 1A to your heart's content. Don't even mention high level play in your posts because you know nothing about it.
Please continue arguing with me so I can expose you once and for all. Maybe when all is said and done we can take it online and have a third party watch while I scrape you 10-0. I will intentionally play in such a way as to embarass you and shatter your theories. I will beat you with the most simple shit while you can mitsu 1A to your heart's content. Don't even mention high level play in your posts because you know nothing about it.
Why? What in my post indicates anything that puts me in any more advantageous a situation than you?
Although some GIs are due to reaction, and anticipation. Some GIs are due to conditioning. I'll use 3 SCH K as an example, some people are so use to that follow up knee, that they begin to GI automatically after blocking 3. That isnt anticipation nor reaction, that's taking 100 knees and saying fuck it.
Online sucks, but its all I got.
Fuzion
[09] Warrior
That's another example of anticipation. Conditioning them to expect it is the cause of their anticipatory GI.
You mentioned using something offline after using it online. I took that as you have offline comp.
TheGreyAngelic
[08] Mercenary
Let me answer your question on WHY people spam. Because, they feel it is the best strategy.
Funny, GI is the perfect use against any spammer, in my opinion at least.
If they are foolish enough to consider "HEY I'M GONNA KEEP USING THIS ON YOU SINCE YOU ONBVIOSLY CANT HANDLE IT THEN I WILL!"
Then I will punish them with a much better strategy. Like Cervantes' spammers. All they do is his flash up then crash down on you thing, sorry I can't remember the name of that move, which is easy to GI once you get use to it.
And sadly they just don't know what to do even after the GI, there are choice few who can Burst, but I out burst them by far.
Then they keep doing it, over and over again, then I put them into a wall combo that last nearly half their life bar, and what’s running through their mind? "WTF???"
What am I thinking, "LOL" if you can think that.
What it is, is skill; PURELY SKILL. A Skilled Player can handle any situation, including a spammer.
Funny, GI is the perfect use against any spammer, in my opinion at least.
If they are foolish enough to consider "HEY I'M GONNA KEEP USING THIS ON YOU SINCE YOU ONBVIOSLY CANT HANDLE IT THEN I WILL!"
Then I will punish them with a much better strategy. Like Cervantes' spammers. All they do is his flash up then crash down on you thing, sorry I can't remember the name of that move, which is easy to GI once you get use to it.
And sadly they just don't know what to do even after the GI, there are choice few who can Burst, but I out burst them by far.
Then they keep doing it, over and over again, then I put them into a wall combo that last nearly half their life bar, and what’s running through their mind? "WTF???"
What am I thinking, "LOL" if you can think that.
What it is, is skill; PURELY SKILL. A Skilled Player can handle any situation, including a spammer.
No, I was stating that as an example of how online play can benefit you, especially if you play against worthy opponents. However, even spammers can help make you a better player. As I said before, what happens when you fight a spammer in the first round of a tournament? Spammers can't be fought like other opponents (immune to mindgames and whatnot), so it's best if you know what your options are against that type of playstyle well in advance.
Plume
[09] Warrior
If you say so... It just sucks that your example was Cervantes, because he's the easiest kind of spammer to counter.
when I get on again, Ill add you on PSN.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
ok fusion, you are a troll.
1. some people compared me to warble so your also insulting my play
2. if your so sure warble is not "concise" play him and find out
now for spammers
spammers are not aware hat the game has an x,y,and z axis.this means: bob and weave B,B spamming kiliks have seem to forgot this game is 3D.
against low spammers go for GI's.its much more likely to GI against most low attacks. and the pay off for low GI's are quite good
1. some people compared me to warble so your also insulting my play
2. if your so sure warble is not "concise" play him and find out
now for spammers
spammers are not aware hat the game has an x,y,and z axis.this means: bob and weave B,B spamming kiliks have seem to forgot this game is 3D.
against low spammers go for GI's.its much more likely to GI against most low attacks. and the pay off for low GI's are quite good