Why Mitsurugi's 'Relic' stance must be reinstated

[ChaosK]

The OP's idea for two games makes no sense. Its not like tournament players dont want a story mode, good music, videos and all that stuff, or that casual players dont like having a good netcode and character balance. If the developers could do both they would always do both.

The problem is they have limited resources, so they have to decide which of that stuff has more importance. And in a fighting game that would be the fighting.

 

[SinseiPo]

"

Having 2 separate games, one for casual, the other for hardcore, wouldn't that only further put pressure on an already pressured PS to barely release a game in time as it is?

We all know sc5 was rushed, imagine how much worse things could have been if they had to make TWO games?

I agree with Idle completely. Given the time frame, the earthquake that devastated Japan, and SC5 STILL turned out to be this good?

Lets pretend for a minute that they tried to make sc5 like sc3, in the sense of having a SHIT ton of styles, SHIT ton of modes, etc. That would have meant that they would have had virtually no time at all for balance and glitch testing.

Well, the funny thing is, Sc3 ended up being an unbalanced glitchy clusterfuck. They tried to do in that game what you're suggesting and look how that ended up.

They focused on the things that truly mattered in a FG for sc5. If I want good SP content, then I play something else.

If you like older game modes, why not just play the older SC?

Points taken., no problem, and if PS had in someway communicated (maybe they did, and I wasn't there) that hey guys, given the circumstances we're putting out an abbreviated version of the game, then I would be totally cool with that. But I'm not quite sure , if they had all the time they wanted that SC5 wouldn't be just like it is. Based on some of what I'm hearing, a lot of the butchering, move list cutting and roster shortening was intentional and strategic and lack of time had nothing to do with it (It would be nice if that was the case) Then I would look forward to a more full game in SC6

On the other hand, I'm one of the fans of SC3 and I do still play it. I didn't and dont' find SC3 to be a glitchy cluster fuck. At the level I play its just fine. When you say:

"They focused on the things that truly mattered in a FG for sc5"

you are speaking from the high level/tournament type POV. Not all fans of the game agree with you. High level players and tournament types are in the minority. :-( You see for a very large segment (actually the majority) of fighting game fans, the things that truly matter in a FG include good background storylines for each character, all the standard FG modes (e.g., survival, team mode, time trial), favorite move lists and complete character rosters (where's my Zalasamel, Talim , Vader, Yoda, and Yun Sung?) and continuity. If the move was in the last iteration of the game they fully expect the move to be in the next iteration of the game. If Zalasamel was my main in SC IV, then I'm fucked in SC5.

IdleMind makes a lot of sense and some very good points. And your point about they did the best given the time frame and conditions is well taken. But it is fairly difficult to reconcile the High Level Player POV with the Loyal Casual player POV.
The Loyal Casual players far out number the High level players and the Loyal casual players actually pay for the game being made. On the other hand the High level, hard core, tournament players are the most Visible and Vocal. They are the ones that are typically voicing their opinions on forums, youtube, gameproducer's email, facebook etc. So its a lot easier for PS to know what the Highlevel, Hardcore, Tournament-Types want, than what the Loyal Casual player wants. My point is as a loyal casual player, PS went too far this time. I believe these are the most cuts in the history of the series:

1) Major cuts to movelists to the point of butchering /crippling characters IMO
2) Decimating the roster simply vanquishing (Zalasamel, Talim, Yun Sung, Vader, Yoda,etc)
3) Gutting Story mode
4) Where are movie endings/intros
5) What happened to the Galleries and the awesome Art work
6) Wallpapers anyone?

Sure non of this is really truly important in FG right? Well, its not for high level, tournament types. BUT!!!! It is important for many loyal casual types. Now if PS left them out because simply there was not enough time, (understood), so we will be looking for their return in the next release. On the removal of these items was strategic, then Namco will lose lots of loyal casual players, because at some point, enough is enough.

Gameplay with Mitsurugi is what drew me in to SC II. But since then I've scene the demolishing of

1) Time Attack Modes
2) Survival Modes
3) Team Battle Modes
4) Battle Theatre
5) Endings for Characters
6) Galleries
7) Complete Story Mode
8) Certain Weapons
9) HieHachi, Talim, Zalasamel, Cassandra,Vader, Yoda, Yun Sung, etc
10) Complete watering down of Intro Movies to the game

But now my main Mitsurugi has been defrocked of one of the five basic Samurai stances, and several of the basic (cliche even) moves. From a high level players POV so what! these things have been removed, we've got a more balanced game don't we? There are fewer throw away moves aren't there? and we've got pretty good netcode don't we?

I'm just sayin, the vast majority of Soul Calibur customers don't even know what a www.8wayrun.com even is. The majority of Soul Calibur customers have absolutely no intention of playing high level SC or participating in SC tournaments. They don't care anything about counting frames, or knowing all the combos or strings a particular character has. They don't even consider who has the advantage or is at disadvantage in any given SC scenario. So when the high level player types are speaking to the game producers they are not speaking for the majority of the players. And when you post:

"They focused on the things that truly mattered in a FG for sc5"

Which crowd do you believe you're really representing?

 

[IdleMind]

You keep saying the "loyal casual crowd" detests the very things you are stumping for, but again, the sales data DOES NOT SUPPORT THAT CLAIM.

I took each of the positions you advocated for, explained multiple explanations, theorems, facts and history. You even are trying to paint me and others as stumping for "one side" of the debate when I clearly explained above my wish (and PS's logic) is to bridge the gulf between the playerbases, and why, and how. You are digging your heels in and acting like a zealot. "But the casuals and their numbers".

I attempted to be reasonable, and look where that got me. That was a mistake and this will be my last post in this thread as a result.

The casual numbers have not been affecting by drastic changes in each of the iterations. Characters have come and gone, guests come and gone, the movelists have been getting SHORTER since SC1. Your claims ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY FACTS.

 

[ChaosK]

Loyal casual is like an oxymoron anyhow.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

"
I didn't and dont' find SC3 to be a glitchy cluster fuck.

Ever heard of VC (variable cancel)? That ruined sc3 completely. Go look it up on youtube and see what I'm talking about.

And this is just one. I personally have stumbled upon MANY glitches, without even trying.

 

[SinseiPo]

You keep saying the "loyal casual crowd" detests the very things you are stumping for, but again, the sales data DOES NOT SUPPORT THAT CLAIM.

I took each of the positions you advocated for, explained multiple explanations, theorems, facts and history. You even are trying to paint me and others as stumping for "one side" of the debate when I clearly explained above my wish (and PS's logic) is to bridge the gulf between the playerbases, and why, and how. You are digging your heels in and acting like a zealot. "But the casuals and their numbers".

I attempted to be reasonable, and look where that got me. That was a mistake and this will be my last post in this thread as a result.

The casual numbers have not been affecting by drastic changes in each of the iterations. Characters have come and gone, guests come and gone, the movelists have been getting SHORTER since SC1. Your claims ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY FACTS.

@IdleMind, sorry dude, no intentions of annoyance here. A lot of what you posted is reasonable and some of it I agree with, just not all of it. And actually what I am saying is supported by facts:

SCV sold over 1,000,000 units
There are less than 50,000 registered users on all the SC related forum 8way run included
There are less than 100,000 High level players world wide
There are less than 150,000 Tournament players world wide from 2010 thru 2012
The complete Soul Calibur Series has sold between 3.5 to 8 million units since its release

High level players + Tournament level players = less than 5% of the total SCV or SC units sold.

The fact of the matter is if you are a high level soul calibur player or you place in tournaments, you and your opinion about Soul Calibur represents less than 5% of the total ppl who played soul calibur at least once.

In general, the majority of ppl who play Soul Calibur have no idea what 8way run or any other Internet forum on Soul Calibur even is. The loyal casual player typically has no idea what 8wayrun is and typically has a different opinion about the game than high level/tournament types.

The mere fact that we are having this discussion on the Internet means that we are in the Minority. I say "we" here, even though I'm a only a loyal casual SC playerl, because I am a serious player for the Virtua Fighter and UFC series. That's the only reason I know what 8way run is, because I heard about it on VFDC, otherwise I would be like most other loyal casual SC players totally oblivious to 8way and other SC related forums.

Of course you guys don't agree with me, because you're all actually in the same bag. LOL. In general, the PS should not be over influenced by the opinions, wants, and needs of the ppl on this site, because by definition you represent and are the minority of ppl who have own and have played the game it least. once.

The majority of Soul Calibur players like the deep story mode, dramatic music, awesome stages, complete rosters all the cool moves (regardless to how effective or useful they are), the more game modes the better, they like the endings, and galleries, and wallpapers. They like the museum and the battle theatre. The majority of Soul Calibur (especially the loyal casual players) could careless about frames, maximizing/optimizing combos, mastery of advantage/disadvantage scenarios, and optimal character balance. For all of you who do care about such things, just remember you are in a very small minority.

So back to my original reason for this thread. The storyline in Soul Calibur says that Heishiro Mitsurugi is a Samurai born within twenty years of the great Miyamoto Musashi. Any self respecting Samurai from that time period would know of and have perfected the Five basic stances of the 'Way of the Sword' or Kendo as we now call it. Mitsurugi used to have the five stances until PS took the 'Relic Stance' out of his repetoire. Now Mitsurugi as a Samurai is incomplete, he can no longer be considered official Samurai, because he doesn't have the five basic stances. Therefore story of souls, the Soul Calibur story is now inaccurate regarding Mitsurugi, he can no longer be designated as the game's Samurai. This is why PS must reinstate Mitsurugi's Relic stance. To make the story line whole again, to Make Mitsurugi a true representative Samurai again.

PS please make Mitsurugi whole again, restore his honor and Samurai dignity

 

[Tyberius]

[Notice]Understand that just because people are not on the side you want them to be, that does not mean they must be on the opposing side, no matter what side that might be. There are more than 2 sides at play here. If you are that serious about this, take it to the the SC Facebook, where *everyone* is heard regardless of how ridiculous, unlikely, or over the top their demands are.[/Notice]

 

[SinseiPo]

Ever heard of VC (variable cancel)? That ruined sc3 completely. Go look it up on youtube and see what I'm talking about.

And this is just one. I personally have stumbled upon MANY glitches, without even trying.[/quote

Oh I believe SC3 has glitches, so I'm not doubting you, its just that at a certain level play and for a certain (type) of casual player we just don't care. In fact, depending on the glitch it might make the game even more fun. For example, me and my girl and another couple get together every now and then and play SC III and SC II just for fun and laughs and for the girls its a total mash fest, we don't care nothin bout glitches or variable cancel.

Should we?

 

[Xernuht]

Biggest FU to high-level players ever

You do realize that these 5% are largely the reason we may have a chance at SC6, right? High-level play attracts people who look for it, and helps create a better balanced product later on with the moveset patches.

"But Xernuht, look at what competitive player input did to Viola!"

A lot of input can come from the whole community, but who finds out the combat tech first? High-level players who devote their time to these characters.

Honestly, I don't miss Relic SO much that I think 'Rugi is forever flawed, but this is a series about a war between two mystic swords. I think a little unrealism is allowed.

 

[SinseiPo]

You do realize that these 5% are largely the reason we may have a chance at SC6, right? High-level play attracts people who look for it, and helps create a better balanced product later on with the moveset patches.

"But Xernuht, look at what competitive player input did to Viola!"

A lot of input can come from the whole community, but who finds out the combat tech first? High-level players who devote their time to these characters.

Honestly, I don't miss Relic SO much that I think 'Rugi is forever flawed, but this is a series about a war between two mystic swords. I think a little unrealism is allowed.

So are you saying that you don't think that the successful sales of SC5 is what makes a SC6 possible?

I have both SC IV and SC V loaded on my PS3 at the moment for the last few weekends I've been switching back and forth the matches with Mitsurugi are much richer on SC IV. I don't want that to be true, because I love so many new things about SC V, but sadly in comparison to IV Mits on SC V sux! I guess Xernuht, if I just stop playing SC IV maybe I'll forget what Mitsurugi use to be like. For example I don't rely on the trooper roll anymore :-(

 

[Twiz]

snip

So what you're saying is that PS should focus on selling points primarily for the people who are going to play the game for two weeks and quit? It's that 5% that shows true support for the game and community. It's that 5% that is willing to spend money and show up at public events to support the game. It's that 5% that will continue playing the game 3 years after release while all the casuals have quit playing it for the next new shiny game.

And as for the Mitsu needs more stances I'll repeat something I've heard Idle say on multiple occasions. "While SCV may have a smaller move list per character it has the largest amount of viable moves." Multiple stances and complicated strings tend to be worthless and nothing but added on junk. And Rugi who is already a very strong character doesn't need something added to him that will complicate him for people who are just starting the game.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

If you like older game modes, why not just play the older SC?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question

 

[Xernuht]

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question

Well, if you're going to make a valid point, expect no one to admit you did.

So are you saying that you don't think that the successful sales of SC5 is what makes a SC6 possible?

I have both SC IV and SC V loaded on my PS3 at the moment for the last few weekends I've been switching back and forth the matches with Mitsurugi are much richer on SC IV. I don't want that to be true, because I love so many new things about SC V, but sadly in comparison to IV Mits on SC V sux! I guess Xernuht, if I just stop playing SC IV maybe I'll forget what Mitsurugi use to be like. For example I don't rely on the trooper roll anymore :-(

As Raven said,

So what you're saying is that PS should focus on selling points primarily for the people who are going to play the game for two weeks and quit? It's that 5% that shows true support for the game and community. It's that 5% that is willing to spend money and show up at public events to support the game. It's that 5% that will continue playing the game 3 years after release while all the casuals have quit playing it for the next new shiny game.

Spoiler'd for being a big block of text.

Spoiler

While the initial sales are what matter at first, they primarily serve the purpose of IMMEDIATE PROFIT. For a company to be interested in producing a continuing fighting game series, there needs to be a strong mix of initial sales, continued sales, and long-term investment from the community. Some franchises are so popular by now that they can continue on initial sales alone, but they are still strong enough to persist in the minds of the community (Street Fighter, Tekken, Super Smash Bros.), but Soul Calibur isn't that lucky. While the initial figures for SC5 were good (over a million, yada yada yada), look at the sales compared to Tekken TT2. SCV's initial sales (release to June): 680K (info acquired from Siliconera). TTT2 sales during the period between release and the end of the second quarter (Sept.30): 840K (same source). Soul Calibur's initial sales over 6 months were surpassed by Tekken's within a month, so obviously there's no way Soul Calibur can survive with the early sales juggernaut next door. We haven't received Namco's newest financial report yet, but I can't see SC breaking 2 million, while Tekken's highly expected to. Long-term sales have abandoned us for Tekken. What do we have left but the ongoing devotion of the fanbase? The fact that SC is actually getting a push by its community at the EVO donation drive, despite the inclusion of stupid titles like SSBM and My Little Prototype, helps prove to Namco that we do give a damn about this series, and that we will have more, and does so in a much better way than just buying a copy of the game.

Especially when Namco doesn't quite know how many copies are being traded/returned.

Long story short, we're at the point now where all the people who picked it up because it was shiny have left it, and now only the die-hards remain. Yourself included, Sinsei. If Mitsurugi's lack of Relic stance or any other moves you may have once loved bothers you, play a new character.

Don't believe I am sympathetic to your cause. I lost my main between 4 and 5, so I picked up a new one, and I've had more fun with 5Rugi than I had with 3Rugi or 4Rugi.

 

[shitsumon]

Hi there.
Two quick things.

1. About this info that tournament players are less than 5% of the whole.
I think, that people may have equal rights, but their opinions do not (or at least should not) have equal value.
it's like in one of Dara O'Briain's stand-up routines: a NASA scientist should not be treated equally as some guy who thinks that the sky and stars are a carpet painted by god (paraphrase). Maybe now the game is not perfect, but at least we have a game. Im pretty sure that if we left everything to the 95% there would be no fighting. Just Ivy's boobs.
(for the record, Im a casual player)

2. Again, I may be proven wrong, but I have a strange and eerie feeling, that there are more tournament and pro players of SoulCalibur, than casual players who know exactly what You're talking about in your first post...
Most casual players of fighting games are kids, teenagers and very young adults, so I would venture a guess that they may feel a general dissatisfaction with the diminished movelist, but I doubt that it comes from a deep understanding of history, or language, or Japan, or, well, all that.

But Good luck in Your cause.

cheers

 

[d_b]

there would be no fighting. Just Ivy's boobs.

Lets talk more about Ivy's boobs.

..uh...which means lets talk about Ivy's lack of SE.

 

[UnseenWombat]

Nevermind, carry on.

 

[SinseiPo]

So what you're saying is that PS should focus on selling points primarily for the people who are going to play the game for two weeks and quit? It's that 5% that shows true support for the game and community. It's that 5% that is willing to spend money and show up at public events to support the game. It's that 5% that will continue playing the game 3 years after release while all the casuals have quit playing it for the next new shiny game.

And as for the Mitsu needs more stances I'll repeat something I've heard Idle say on multiple occasions. "While SCV may have a smaller move list per character it has the largest amount of viable moves." Multiple stances and complicated strings tend to be worthless and nothing but added on junk. And Rugi who is already a very strong character doesn't need something added to him that will complicate him for people who are just starting the game.

With all respect my friends:

@damn_you_suck yes, I still play SC II, SC III, SC IV. But I only play SC II and SCIII on SD television which kind of sux once you're use to 720p and 1080p.

@TwiztidRaven

My friend, that's the whole point, we know that the 5% will always buy SC 6, SC7, SC8...... etc. The real question is will the 95% that bought SCIII who played it for a few months and put it down, will they Buy SCIV? And if they bought SC IV played it here and there and then put it down , will they buy SC 5? and so on. As long as they don't return the game it still counts as a sale for Namco no matter how long, or how often they play it right. So 1.5 million ppl buy the game, but only 500,000 play it on a frequent and regular basis. Namco still has the revenue from the other 1 million casual players right? As long as those casual player buy the next version of the game and enjoy it should Namco care how frequently or how many times they play it? Now, here's the problem if those loyal (but casual) players for some reason feel like the version of SC they just purchased is not as fun as the previous verion and they put it down, and the next version comes out and being the loyal(but casual) player they are they buy the new version, but to their chagrin it turns out not to be as fun for whatever reason as the previous version, then Namco could lose them as a customer. However, as IdleMind has already pointed out, that's just pure supposition on my part, I don't have anything other than anecdotal proof (a few friends, associates and relatives who stop buying the game) I'm not certain that reasoning extends to the masses but...
I'm also not certain that it doesn't.

. "While SCV may have a smaller move list per character it has the largest amount of viable moves." Multiple stances and complicated strings tend to be worthless and nothing but added on junk. And Rugi who is already a very strong character doesn't need something added to him that will complicate him for people who are just starting the game

In Mitsurugi's case we're not talking about adding moves that would complicate him, we are talking about removing part of his standard and fundamental movelist. TBH in all the years I've been playing SC I've never heard Misturugi referred to as a hard character to pick up :-) To the contrary he usually is one of the most abused characters by noobs. Also just because string appears to worthless or even junk, doesn't mean that a certain class of Loyal (but casual) player won't rely on that string, or that player might see that string as the coolest looking, most awesome string the character has LOL. That happens all the time. A certain move sequence might look good, but outside of that it has no redeeming value. Well for a certain class of casual player, LOOKING GOOD IS ALL THAT"S NECESSARY! LOL.

But my appeal to reinstate the Relic is not because it looks good, but because its one of the fundamental classic/cliche almost Signature Samurai stances. While this fact may have no value whatsoever to a highlevel or tournament type player, It does mean something to those who play the game just for how cool it looks and how good it makes them feel to pull of the cool looking move against some friend or family member.

My argument is on behalf of the persona, "the storyline", the "concept" of Heishiro Mitsurugi, that whatever else you want to say about the 'Relic Stance' it is one of the classic Samurai Signature stances that is found in Anime, Video Gamers, Manga, Samurai movies and literature the world over. And probably (to some extent) contributes to the overall popularity of the Mitsurugi Character. For example: I'm playing Way of the Samurai IV right now, and one of the first stances my Samurai earned was the 'Relic' stance. Of course its not called 'Relic in WOT4' But all Samurai players know the 'Relic stance' when they see it, no matter what its called.

Perhaps the only other Character that has similar justification for reinstating moves is Raphael (I dunno 4 sure) I haven't played him much in SC5 but it appears he has lost some very classic moves that are simply Signature fencing moves.

Anyway, maybe its unlikely that PS will reinstate Mitsurugi's Samurai status, but the Bushido code required that I make the appeal... LOL :-)

 

[ChaosK]

I dont think that PS would reintroduce something that would be useless.
What you could hope for, is that they bring back his relic stance with the intention of making it a viable tool.

But bringing it back just because it looked good is not a valid argument and it wouldn't happen just for that.

 

[SinseiPo]

I dont think that PS would reintroduce something that would be useless.
What you could hope for, is that they bring back his relic stance with the intention of making it a viable tool.

But bringing it back just because it looked good is not a valid argument and it wouldn't happen just for that.

Fair enough, but does that mean that the reason the move was included in the first place is because PS thought Relic Stance was useful
but now has discovered its not useful? Or once upon a time 'Relic Stance' was useful and because system level changes over time it is no longer useful? And, are you saying that coolness/fun factor of a already existing move in a movelist, is simply not sufficient enough to justify its continued existence?


Wow, I'm learning a lot about what some players perceive SC to be all about in this thread. But at this point
I'm not quite sure are we discussing the game SC or the science of SC LOL. I get a little worried when ppl start to
bring calculators to a knife fight.

In terms of Mitsurugi's stance being a "viable tool" here's a stupid probably juvenile question that I'll ask just for grins.

If for whatever reason you had to choose:

Would you rather play a fun game that is not fair but absolutely fun?

Or

Would your rather play a fair game that is not fun, but absolutely fair?

Obviously, most ppl would prefer a game that is both fun and fair, but what if you had to chose between the two?

Since its just a game, if I had to, I'm one of those blokes that would chose fun over fair if I had to (for whatever reason) choose.

One more diversion type (what loosely related to the Relic Stance) stupid probably juvenile question:

Do you see SC more of a game of chance than skill?

Or
Do you see SC more a game of skill than chance?

Obviously the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, but if you had to pick (for whatever reason) one or the other which one would it be?

Personal Observation (non scientific) many of the noobs, loyal casual players that I personally know see SC as a game of chance more than skill(do tell), On the other hand most of the high level players I know see SC as a game of skill more than a game of chance.

Time to beat the proverbial expired horse again: The mates that I know that see and play SC more as a game of chance don't (and probably can't) see a rationalization for removing 'The Relic Stance' from Heishiro. Most of the matest that I know that see and play SC more as a game of skill either don't care that Relic has be removed, or absolutely understand the reasons, and could probably give new ones to remove it.


@ChaosK I apologize in advance for my wall of text post in answer to yours, but sometimes the old Sensei rambles. You mention the viability of Relic as a Tool, But that's exactly the problem and one of the underlying themes of this tread,
viability will be measured differently depending on whether you're a certain kind of loyal (but casual) player or whether you are a high level / tournament type player. Or to put it very very loosely Whether you see SC more of a fun game than a fair game, or whether you see SC as more of a game of chance rather than more of a game of skill. Depending on which glasses you see the game through, the Relic stance is not optional LOL

 

[ChaosK]

Fair enough, but does that mean that the reason the move was included in the first place is because PS thought Relic Stance was useful
but now has discovered its not useful? Or once upon a time 'Relic Stance' was useful and because system level changes over time it is no longer useful? And, are you saying that coolness/fun factor of a already existing move in a movelist, is simply not sufficient enough to justify its continued existence?

Relic is a reminiscence of past soulcalibur games, where the series wasn't as defined. Movelists were full of a lot of useless moves. You have to understand, that having lots of useless moves, is in itself bad game design. So coolness factor alone is indeed not sufficient enough to justify its continued existence.

On the other hand, when a move appeals to a lot of people due to visuals, it could motivate the developers to find a way to include relic and make it worthwhile. So its not like it doesnt matter.

Would you rather play a fun game that is not fair but absolutely fun?

Or

Would your rather play a fair game that is not fun, but absolutely fair?

Obviously, most ppl would prefer a game that is both fun and fair, but what if you had to chose between the two?

Since its just a game, if I had to, I'm one of those blokes that would chose fun over fair if I had to (for whatever reason) choose.

I would play neither of them because both is horrible.

Do you see SC more of a game of chance than skill?

Or
Do you see SC more a game of skill than chance?

Its definitely a game of skill. I can see how less experienced players would think differently but the more proficient you become, the less random your game will be. Its all about maximizing your risk/reward.

@ChaosK I apologize in advance for my wall of text post in answer to yours, but sometimes the old Sensei rambles. You mention the viability of Relic as a Tool, But that's exactly the problem and one of the underlying themes of this tread,
viability will be measured differently depending on whether you're a certain kind of loyal (but casual) player or whether you are a high level / tournament type player. Or to put it very very loosely Whether you see SC more of a fun game than a fair game, or whether you see SC as more of a game of chance rather than more of a game of skill. Depending on which glasses you see the game through, the Relic stance is not optional LOL

Well viability is meant as in how efficient the move is.