Discussion in 'Viola' started by Destinizish, Feb 2, 2012.
Some of it is in this thread's OP.
Full frames for SET A+BAB would be nice.
blocked recalls are between +6 and +9. If you give me a sec i can test it and update my fd spreadsheet for you.
edit: spreadsheet updated with some data. SET A+BAB is the worst recall giving only +4 on block
Yo look I wanted to respond to what Synraii wrote in the Balance thread but it's locked now. It's related to Viola's frame data so I figured it should go here:
Synraii (last post in balance thread:
"No I don't: setting up 6B+K is prone to interruption as the mixup itself is actually quite slow, 6B+K 1K I'm pretty sure is not + on block and 6B+K into any mid that gives a 3B combo: Block the mid and you can interrupt between the mid and the 6B+K hit - Alpha can 33B/236Throw mixup for example, its very hard to hit confirm the mid into a true comboing 3B, which means a good on CH safe mid here is good, I'm fairly sure Ivy can block 3A, do 214B and its a safe escape here that will hurt Viola if she pushes buttons. I'm pretty sure aGI CEs and ordinary GIs are garunteed here to due to 3A, 3K, 6B recovery, meaning if Viola wants to try to escape punishment, you drain her meter, which is a big deal.
In all honesty, I think you're complaining because its a good setup for a character who *isn't* called Ivy. =P"
Ok so this is just wrong. The frame advantage will obviously depend on the timing between VS 6B+K and the attack. If you do a standard combo to set up the orb, e.g. VS 3B, AAB, 8A+B, and then do 6B+K:
1K is +7 on block
6B has so much blockstun you can't even ATTACK if you block it, you have 1f, so you can either block or get hit.
3A has a little less blockstun, but there's no point in using 3A for oki because your opponent doesn't have time to step.
I appreciate this has caused confusion: Let me go to the lab and record what I mean, k?
(Just checked - what I mean, is correct, making video now =) )
6B+K 1K is at least +5 on block.
It probably depends on character hitboxes. Was +7 on Leixia but I should've checked with others. For example, in the setup above, Alpha Patroklos doesn't even get hit by 3A, though like I said it's not useful for oki so it doesn't really matter.
When it comes to interruption, it seems only certain moves that move your character towards the opponent (Leixia 6KK, BB, Ivy 6KB etc) can interrupt Viola's 6B+K setups, for example:
VS 6B+K 3A 3A - if you block the first 3A you cannot interrupt with 2A, but 6KK or BB works
VS 6B+K 6B 2A - 6B pushes the opponent back so it's not possible to interrupt, but you can step to one side (Viola is still at advantage)
All this depends on hitboxes and range, it'd say it's pretty random and extremely hard to play against. You have to react to 3A or 6B for example before the orb hits from the behind, I don't know if this is even remotely possible...
Answers to the above confusion. I seem to have articulated myself badly. =/
This is something that was known for quite some time. The point is, not all characters have moves like Leixia's 6KK or Alpha 2363B that somehow avoid the orb. Same with GI, since 6B+K can be canceled into something else. This doesn't really solve the problem of this mixup.
And what about when 6B+K is used as a wakeup?
Very convenient for you to basically say "shut up and deal with it somehow" when you play a character that is broken and seems to have answer to everything :P
I tested every answer in the video after a combo with an 8A+B ender ie. practical oki it comes from. They all still work the exact same way. And I would argue the evasion is a matchup thing, use Alpha or Leixia against her if you think they beat Viola's mixups. =/
Actually it works here - if they do 6B+K into whatever poke and it is blocked, it is impossible to cancel the orb before connecting with the GI that gets thrown out.
Leixia's 44B is a good move because it is a strong tool and punishing it for many characters is a 50:50, but with good damage potential on both punish varients (44B or 44B4).
Viola's 6B+K shenanigans allow you a 2/3 chance of doing serious damage if you can handle the initial mixup, so it can be dealt with I feel. =/
I tested wakeup after 8A+B. So, it seems you have two options:
- get up and immediately GI
- get up, guess (low/mid) and if you guess right GI
The first option will kill you if Viola does something else than 6B+K immediately after 8A+B (44A BE haha) or cancel 6B+K into something like 2[A+B], the second option, well it's a 50/50.
So it looks like that in order to punish her, you first have to guess correctly and then spend meter (unless you play those characters that have some options to deal with it) and it's still not 100% guaranteed because she can re-GI . Really stupid imo =/
That's what I'm saying - when she does 6B+K, if you make your mid/low guess and it is right, you can spend a GI and get a shot at high damage on reaction to her 1K/3A/6B/3K being blocked, or if you are Alpha/Leixia etc, risk/reward is in your favour because of the orb evasion. Its not as though its 100% risk free for Viola to do 6B+K mixups, that is all I've been arguing, so I guess we agree.
I will ask you to keep salt about a characters toolset out of the SA's though ring - that's a tier list/balance discussion thing. I don't see what it can add to an SA. =/
Can't you just tech backwards?
8A+B in air combos is an untechable knockdown, I think.
Oh, I thought after you could always at least roll backwards, and that it kind of stuffed Viola's oki if you did? (Does tech backwards mean ukemi backwards? I though it just meant roll .___.)
In any case, I think just back rolling really stuffs Viola's wakeup game most of the time.
Ever so steadily I'm nearing the completion of this character's wiki. I've added the JG frames for about half her moves, as well as some missing moves (WR B, where were you?). Here are the notes to some of her moves I didn't fully test if anyone wants to help out:
If there's any other problems with the wiki (missing moves, missing values, etc.) and you know about them, feel free to help by PMing me so I can fix it.
Since nobody saw it necessary to test/share any information about Set 6B+K, the startup animation is 20 frames, during which she can't block. So using Set 6B+K at neutral puts her at the same disadvantage that she'd be at if she backdashed.
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