Zwei pessimist discussion

Some folks have really gotten so harsh on DrDogg. He wasn't whining. He has his statement and he pointed it out clearly. Focus on that

As for me - I like Zwei and I still believe in his potential. The only things that I find uncool is that 4[A and 1[B can be obliterated by some characters without much of a sweat. Let's take Pyrrha for example:
4[A on block - 22_88B,A,K
1[B on block - 2~FC36B

But stil those moves can be useful as a range attacks and still they can act as a distraction. Also they won't be outplayed anyway easily on block and will still deliver high damage on CH (or EIN naturals)
Everything is a matter of adaptation, flexibility and knowledge. I still treat him as a good pressing character. He's not Viola, of course not. But still see him as a solid character
 
Belial said:
4A] cannot be punished by ss-atacks, I wont go through this again.
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This is just wrong. What you really mean is that Zwei has the ability to beat out SS attacks, but this involves a guess that may get Zwei punished if he's wrong. No one is saying that you can completely shut down all of Zwei's tools. But a lot of his tools are gimmicky in that the risk/reward ratio can easily be shifted against him with the right approach with many characters.

I think its actually better that we focus on his crappiness and not the good aspects of his game. Because most of the good aspects of his game are kinda gimmicky, so spreading knowledge about these things is only gonna make Zwei less competetive.
 
Uber1337 said:
This is just wrong. What you really mean is that Zwei has the ability to beat out SS attacks, but this involves a guess that may get Zwei punished if he's wrong. No one is saying that you can completely shut down all of Zwei's tools. But a lot of his tools are gimmicky in that the risk/reward ratio can easily be shifted against him with the right approach with many characters.

I think its actually better that we focus on his crappiness and not the good aspects of his game. Because most of the good aspects of his game are kinda gimmicky, so spreading knowledge about these things is only gonna make Zwei less competetive.
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I'm essentially going into MLG Anaheim hoping that most of the players don't know ZWEI. I'm banking on ignorance to take me farther than skill with ZWEI... and I think my ZWEI is pretty good. lol
 
Uber1337 said:
I think its actually better that we focus on his crappiness and not the good aspects of his game.
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This is the worst thing I have ever read on this forum, the worst kind of thinking...

edit: cause thinking like that you are totally gonna win...right...?
 
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Aziz said:
this attitude is what I hate the most!! I main him and I'm good player weather u know me or not, Belial showed us very good zwei and u still think zwei is weak and lacking, Belial made great guide for zwei u still screaming about enlighten you. If u can't use the character then quit whining about him!!
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I challenge your zwei.
 
I can't even belive the s*** im reading here.. can someone show some video footage of that magic player with jedi reflexes who reacts perfectly to all of his setups and beat him out everytime.. untill then i refuse to belive hes so bad that people say on this SA.. I think hes good tbh. his oki game with B+K BE is insanly good imo one of the strongest oki in the game, and thats comming from a prepatch Natsu player! 4B BE is very good, and his throw game is solid, blocked knife fiend B sets up for a nice throw mixup since the wolf is not on cooldown, he also builds meter VERY fast. And as a bonus hes very fun to play, so fun infact im thinking about starting to main him, well i almost played him as much as my main at this point anyways so..
 
Azazel said:
This is the worst thing I have ever read on this forum, the worst kind of thinking...

edit: cause thinking like that you are totally gonna win...right...?
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Why is this a bad kind of thinking. Its sad that it comes to this, but its kinda true. Unless someone had some solid stops that w don't already know about, zwei is pretty much limited to gimmicks. Its not like I don't know what i'm doing either. I will challenge any one of you guys to a Zwei match.
 
Uber1337 said:
Why is this a bad kind of thinking. Its sad that it comes to this, but its kinda true. Unless someone had some solid stops that w don't already know about, zwei is pretty much limited to gimmicks. Its not like I don't know what i'm doing either. I will challenge any one of you guys to a Zwei match.
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Calm it down skippy, nobody is questioning the merit of your skill(at least not openly). So let me take this moment to ask a few genuine questions I've been curious about. These questions aren't to prove a point or anything, just somethings I'd like to know going forward.

First, what exactly to you consider "gimmicks?"(This word is thrown out nearly every paragraph when talking about ZWEI) Are attacks that hit but don't lead to anything? Attacks that will only work once because they look weird? Besides a small handful of attacks I'm honestly not sure what's considered only gimmicky.

Secondly, what is it that you find fun about the character? You say he's your second because he's fun to you but you never mentioned why, or even how you use him. I enjoy using him because I like characters who have to space and use mind games over those who are constant pressure, as most of the cast seems to be.

I like having to both outsmart and outplay my opponent rather than use constant safe/ high damage guarantees. I think ZWEI fits better for that mentality, but that's just me
 
Oh goodness... sounds like Z.W.E.I went all "Lann" on us... pat yourself on the back if you got that joke. it is strange they nerfed the new guy though.
 
StormriderAngel said:
Calm it down skippy, nobody is questioning the merit of your skill(at least not openly). So let me take this moment to ask a few genuine questions I've been curious about. These questions aren't to prove a point or anything, just somethings I'd like to know going forward.

First, what exactly to you consider "gimmicks?"(This word is thrown out nearly every paragraph when talking about ZWEI) Are attacks that hit but don't lead to anything? Attacks that will only work once because they look weird? Besides a small handful of attacks I'm honestly not sure what's considered only gimmicky.

Secondly, what is it that you find fun about the character? You say he's your second because he's fun to you but you never mentioned why, or even how you use him. I enjoy using him because I like characters who have to space and use mind games over those who are constant pressure, as most of the cast seems to be.

I like having to both outsmart and outplay my opponent rather than use constant safe/ high damage guarantees. I think ZWEI fits better for that mentality, but that's just me
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I define gimmicks as set-ups that seem very strong at first, but once you figure out the optimal way to approach the set-up, they become significantly less useful. This is the case with most of Zwei's moves. 4A can be turned into a counter mix-up against Zwei on block. 1B can just be turned into flat-out pain for Zwei on block. Any traps leading to 3A can be punished if blocked. The list goes on and on. Its true that its unlikely someone reacts to EVERYTHING correctly, but knowledgeable strong players will be able to react correctly with enough frequency to turn the match-up odds against Zwei.

I find him fun because he has a lot of mix-ups, I just wish they were safer and more solid. I played Maxi in SC4 even though he was terrible for the same exact reason. I also kinda have a thing for bad characters for some reason, I don't know why. I also played Rock and Talim in 4.
 
A couple days in learning Zwei and I am really perplexed by a lot of design choices. It seems Project Soul was so fearful of overpowering the character they put so many limitations on him.

Zwei is a setup character. He has no good lows for a decent low/mid offense. His best low actually has him moving backwards(I had to take note of that) it's very important.
His range is actually very bad. Yes EIN extends it but EIN is slow. So really Zwei has short range. For a slow character this means very shitty basics. Because of that his whiff punishment isn't very solid. Well considering he has arguably the worst movement in the game, backdashing to bait out whiffs usually gets me hit.

For some reason EIN doesn't build meter. For a character so dependent on meter, that was surprising to say the least.
And when you take the risk of holding down EIN for setups. The buffering system prevents you from doing certain directional moves limiting your offense even more. Also EIN has a cool down for whatever reason.

He is unsafe in some really stupid areas as well. He only has one decent mid in 1B IMO. Everything else is either too slow or unsafe. And at the moment I really question if it is wise to spend meter on his CE if an opportunity arises, since he's so heavily dependent on his BEs.

To me a character that is dependent on setups for offense needs to give the player freedom to be creative. Zwei has a ton of limits preventing him to be as cool as I initially thought. SC4 algol and Viola do a better job at this. Some of these limitations need to go.
 
All posts unrelated to Toilet match videos have been moved here, where they belong. Carry on with complains.
 
3b range sucks ass. And i still get into a habit of using 3b after a GI...meh
 
I like muscle sexy man so I tried him quite a lot. But I found him not hard to beat, when fighting with AI. Probably because of the lack of range.
 
Azazel said:
This is the worst thing I have ever read on this forum, the worst kind of thinking...

edit: cause thinking like that you are totally gonna win...right...?
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Ever heard of the phrase.

"I'm more afraid of my own weaknesses then that of my enemy's designs."

I think that is what he meant instead of sounding all negative.
 
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