Zwei pessimist discussion

[WarIn54321]

All Zwei really needs in my personal opinion is:
-Whiffing issues fixed, primarily:
-WS B, B+K (bad backturn detection), A+B
-1K BE (no true stun; EIN fails to flip them like a patty sometimes)
-22/88BB (random whiffing on the second hit)
-66BA should be a mid series of attacks. Second hit being high is dumb as hell
-B+G should not be affected by EIN cooldown

Just these fixes and I'd be a happy camper. Too many Zwei loyalists complain that asking for speed or strength buff is criminal or too much or you don't know how to play him right, so I think these small yet disastrous design choices can fix him up while not making him overpowered or anything of the sort. Thoughts?

​

 

[Lasercakes]

-66BA should be a mid series of attacks. Second hit being high is dumb as hell

I don't see what's wrong with getting punished for throwing it out mindlessly. I'm not gonna argue this point too hard though.

B+G should not be affected by EIN cooldown

B+G ignores the Ein cool down? Near a wall or an edge and just got hit by (B+G)? Better break A+G. Welcome to (B+G) hell.

 

[WarIn54321]

I don't see what's wrong with getting punished for throwing it out mindlessly. I'm not gonna argue this point too hard though.

Thing is, it's not even practical in a real match. "Mindfully" using it is situational too. The way it's designed right now makes it completely useless against skilled players who know the match up.

B+G ignores the Ein cool down? Near a wall or an edge and just got hit by (B+G)? Better break A+G. Welcome to (B+G) hell.

Wait wait wait, please clarify. Are you saying the cool down isn't true or are you implying it doesn't need this fix? What's wrong with A+G anyway? That setup every Zwei player does costs meter. If I don't feel like wasting meter on a grab, why should B+G be affected by EIN cool down at all? Hell, near a wall, it whiffs. It's such a silly grab.

Ehhh, then again, I'm 150% sure no one will agree me anyway lol. That's alright with me though. It is an opinion, after all (with no merit whatsoever ._. ).

 

[lxhizy]

ZWEI is very balanced imo, his werewolf attacks can punish most of the fast character's counter attacks (except for natsu's ) even though that he's kinda slow.
I would like a little buff for the next patch on his guard breaks, they are way too slow.

 

[WarIn54321]

ZWEI is very balanced imo, his werewolf attacks can punish most of the fast character's counter attacks (except for natsu's ) even though that he's kinda slow.
I would like a little buff for the next patch on his guard breaks, they are way too slow.

You mean 214B and 11B (is that right?) or his general guard-break game (how many hits on average it takes him to break off another character's guard meter)?

 

[Heniek]

11_44_77B is one of the crappiest moves I've ever seen

About 66BA - often you can see when it's goin to hit on CH so it's not a big of a deal in my opinion. At least you can decide wgenever it will be mid-high or just mid (where you couldn't do that on Raphs VE A)

About B+G throw I accept. It gives us an advantage still but no guaranteed damage. At least not even compared to the one of B+G with Ein

 

[Lasercakes]

Thing is, it's not even practical in a real match. "Mindfully" using it is situational too. The way it's designed right now makes it completely useless against skilled players who know the match up.

"Mindfully" would be hit confirming. It's this way by design.

Wait wait wait, please clarify. Are you saying the cool down isn't true or are you implying it doesn't need this fix? What's wrong with A+G anyway? That setup every Zwei player does costs meter. If I don't feel like wasting meter on a grab, why should B+G be affected by EIN cool down at all? Hell, near a wall, it whiffs. It's such a silly grab.

I was saying, if B+G ignored the cool down, (B+G) into (B+G) would be stupid, because near a wall or ring edge it would be stupid to duck and stupid to not break A. I wasn't complaining about A grab, just saying it with B grab working that way it was too stupid.

Also, by stupid, I mean good for Zwei, but bad for the game.

Ehhh, then again, I'm 150% sure no one will agree me anyway lol. That's alright with me though. It is an opinion, after all (with no merit whatsoever ._. ).

Don't worry about it. This is what forums are for. Talking about stuff.

 

[WarIn54321]

I was saying, if B+G ignored the cool down, (B+G) into (B+G) would be stupid, because near a wall or ring edge it would be stupid to duck and stupid to not break A. I wasn't complaining about A grab, just saying it with B grab working that way it was too stupid.

Also, by stupid, I mean good for Zwei, but bad for the game.

Ahhh! Ok, I get what you mean now. Then, I guess, delayed version gives EIN guard-impact properties? I kid, I kid. I can't comprehend how effective that'd be in a real match. It's a silly thought, really xD

11_44_77B is one of the crappiest moves I've ever seen

Every time I pull that move out by mistake, I go

Spoiler

But every time they sit there and eat it to the face and I win a game like that, I go

Spoiler

Nah, just kidding about the last reaction (I'm not a dick player or a sore winner). I do make that face though xD

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

As much as I want zwei to get minor buffs it can be dangerous..considering how project soul buffed viola and she wasn't "really" explored yet, but now she is a monster who can get everyone to literally just quit this game. About the B+G grab....I myself wanted ein's cooldown to go away since I felt zwei throw game needs to be more threatening. But I can live without the cooldown for B+G and I understand what laser is coming from with this move....anyway my minor buffs for zwei would be:
6A- A bit more safety and make it's range consistent.
A+B- more safer at-16 this spells doom If you use this on alpha,maxi or pyrrha.
22BB- make it not whiff so much.....
3A BE- make hit confirmable and safe on block.
44B- speed up frames I can't think of anything practical to use this move..
And yeah thats it for now..I can see if zwei won't ever be touched as he just isn't really explored enough to have Emphasis on his gameplay. Only 1 top player is using him which is belial so....yeah not much people are gonna say about him

 

[lxhizy]

You mean 214B and 11B (is that right?) or his general guard-break game (how many hits on average it takes him to break off another character's guard meter)?

214B and 11B

 

[GoldDragon]

-WS B, B+K (bad backturn detection), A+B
-1K BE (no true stun; EIN fails to flip them like a patty sometimes)
-22/88BB (random whiffing on the second hit)

This

+

6A- A bit more safety and make it's range consistent.
A+B- more safer at-16 this spells doom If you use this on alpha,maxi or pyrrha.
22BB- make it not whiff so much.....
3A BE- make hit confirmable and safe on block.
44B- speed up frames I can't think of anything practical to use this move..

would = an acceptable Zwei that isn't broken/OP.

And if I were to add one more thing...... how about some some throw range like Maxi?

 

[Slade]

I started using this character recently to improve my Edge Master proficiency. He's surprisingly fun, and much stronger than I had initially suspected (better than Raph, at any rate). One thing I noticed is 4[A] > KF B > 3B setup has Ein randomly whiff fairly often, which is very problematic not only because it robs you of free damage, but also leaves you at -16.

I'm kind of putting this character in Siegfried territory; fix the random whiffs and let the character develop, or risk getting another Viola.

 

[Synraii]

I want him to be another Viola, so I can drop her and rep the sexier counterpart in tournament, lol.
Cute guys ftw

 

[Lasercakes]

I started using this character recently to improve my Edge Master proficiency. He's surprisingly fun, and much stronger than I had initially suspected (better than Raph, at any rate). One thing I noticed is 4[A] > KF B > 3B setup has Ein randomly whiff fairly often, which is very problematic not only because it robs you of free damage, but also leaves you at -16.

I'm kind of putting this character in Siegfried territory; fix the random whiffs and let the character develop, or risk getting another Viola.

Don't judge the character based on that setup. That setup is only good for loling at character ignorance.

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

I started using this character recently to improve my Edge Master proficiency. He's surprisingly fun, and much stronger than I had initially suspected (better than Raph, at any rate). One thing I noticed is 4[A] > KF B > 3B setup has Ein randomly whiff fairly often, which is very problematic not only because it robs you of free damage, but also leaves you at -16.

I'm kind of putting this character in Siegfried territory; fix the random whiffs and let the character develop, or risk getting another Viola.

Yeah That setup is really a gimmick. Ok to use it on people who don't know zwei, but people who know the matchup will either hit you out of it or step it before you get a chance to do the guard break. Same for 1(B) which should really be used on oki since the EIN in that string is a high, In short I think a good defensive zwei player is better than an offensive one in the long run. Kinda changed the way how I play him now I use (A) (B) and B+K and also 66A+B and use the pushback to my advantage to play keep away. Zwei is a very technical character. I feel he really needs good Just guarding skills added to his game, But dunno if that helps him in the long run since he isn't a good punish character.

 

[LP]

Saion has a pretty good ZWEI. If he'd. Stop being emo and one-track minded sometimes, he'd be unbelievable with him.

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

Saion has a pretty good ZWEI. If he'd. Stop being emo and one-track minded sometimes, he'd be unbelievable with him.

I fought his zwei yesterday...I wasn't prepared. And he told me zwei might just be his new mina......he still might keep natsu as his main.

 

[GoldDragon]

Change 66B+K to 8B+K.
Make 66B+K into the (worthless) pied piper series.
Make 6B+K nothing for all I care.

 

[Lasercakes]

Change 66B+K to 8B+K.
Make 66B+K into the (worthless) pied piper series.
Make 6B+K nothing for all I care.

Changing 66B+K to 8B+K is a pretty innovative idea for a Zwei change. I like it. Can't be sure the devs want us mashing 8B+K through block stun for free damage (or get out of mix-ups) where available though.

Don't really care too much for changing 6B+K around though.

 

[GoldDragon]

You can make 6B+K whatever or make 66B+K whatever or keep 6B+K to what it is now....... I really don't care. The pied piper series is borderline worthless imo. I have no idea where to put it in my offense.

I'm just thinking about that 66B+K and making it 8B+K or 9B+K (I think 9B+K is more intuitive now that I think about it a little more) and thinking about what it will open up and how it would give Zwei something good without having to really alter anything like frames or adding a TC or TS or tinkering with the damage or anything like that. 66B+K is a good move, I'm sure everyone would agree. I think everyone would also agree that it's a bit handicapped because it's tied to that 8wr movement. It's hard to use it as a defensive move and momemtum stopper.

It's very evasive, yes. I think it starts the TJ frames as soon as you press the button. But I don't see it as being something like Mitsu's disgusting 4b or Ivy's 214b. It's -24 on block (an eternity), very linear, and god forbid your opponent simply walks backward. I don't think I've ever gotten anyone to block it unless Zwei jumped over the opponent which means it whiffs if you don't jump over them. You can't combo off of it (unless you do BK BE before it of course). It doesn't RO. This isn't some cure-all for Zwei's problems. It can get you out of some tight situations but really...... only up close.

Here's my official change......

Change 66B+K's motion to 8B+K/9B+K

Another change I've thought about would be to give 88A (facing left) the same evasive properties to 22A by simply making Zwei rotate to his right instead of rotating back to the side he just 8wrd from. I learned very quickly to never do 22A and always to do 88A even though they're the same move.