If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out...

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
About my whole Big Bang statement, I'm not trying to push religion on anyone. I said it was my opinion, and I personally believe that that can prove his existence. To those who disagree, I ask you what your explanation for the beginning of time is? I think it should get an explanation other than "it just happened."
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How 'bout "we don't know yet".

Another truth? Neither do you.

Your definition of 'proof' is laughable in the scientific sense ~ Let's ignore logic and reason and say you're right. Okay then, which god did it? Was it even a him? Why not an 'it'? People couldn't explain lightning bolts back then, they thought Zeus did it. Clearly that's not the case. The Bible and Quran often describe the world as being flat with even more laughable explanations for what the moon and sun actually are (we're the center of the universe, didn't ya know?) This is as well obviously not the case as science disproved all of this. Many people still believe that volcanoes, hurricanes and earthquakes are the work of some magic man in the sky. Get out of the mindset of explaining things you don't know or understand with "God did it".

If you have a source of evidence that is better than scripture written in the bronze-age middle east, I'm sure the scientific community would like to hear it. Again, valid unbiased, non-subjective experienced or coincidental evidence that hasn't already been discussed or discarded for centuries -- would be preferred.

Anyways, this topic is fun to talk about simply because it involves dealing in all ways of life ; Philosophy, morals, and depending what side you're on -- science ~ but there's never a winner from either side as people rarely convert unless they're already near a tipping point... once someone is offended, they'll almost never back down from their beliefs.

I'll at least say freedom of Religion is fine as long as that religion doesn't make you do something stupid. I think that's something everyone can agree on. =)


-Manta-
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

God?? God you say???

It sure is a nice thought to think that there is all mighty entity overseeing everything. And that when I die I will go to this place that pales in comparison to this place we call earth. It sure is a nice THOUGHT.

But Im not convinced!!
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
About my whole Big Bang statement, I'm not trying to push religion on anyone. I said it was my opinion, and I personally believe that that can prove his existence. To those who disagree, I ask you what your explanation for the beginning of time is? I think it should get an explanation other than "it just happened."
Click to expand...
An alien from another universe was practicing his ray gun shooting. He aimed at the only thing in the universe, that sparked the expansion, and he was killed in the resulting explosion.

Thus, time.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Manta said:
How 'bout "we don't know yet".

Another truth? Neither do you.

Your definition of 'proof' is laughable in the scientific sense ~ Let's ignore logic and reason and say you're right. Okay then, which god did it? Was it even a him? Why not an 'it'? People couldn't explain lightning bolts back then, they thought Zeus did it. Clearly that's not the case. The Bible and Quran often describe the world as being flat with even more laughable explanations for what the moon and sun actually are (we're the center of the universe, didn't ya know?) This is as well obviously not the case as science disproved all of this. Many people still believe that volcanoes, hurricanes and earthquakes are the work of some magic man in the sky. Get out of the mindset of explaining things you don't know or understand with "God did it".

If you have a source of evidence that is better than scripture written in the bronze-age middle east, I'm sure the scientific community would like to hear it. Again, valid unbiased, non-subjective experienced or coincidental evidence that hasn't already been discussed or discarded for centuries -- would be preferred.
Click to expand...

I think you're taking what I said too seriously. I don't believe that God creates lightning or any of the stupid shit the Bible says that defies all logic, which is a large amount of it. In fact, sometimes I seriously doubt God's existence as well, but I'm not gonna convert to atheism. It sounds like you're just assuming that because I believe a higher force is responsible for creating time, that I believe that everything else religion freaks have suggested off the top of their heads is true. I'm not explaining everything I don't know for fact as "God did it" like you said. I use the term "proof" loosely.

And about me not knowing what truly caused the creation of time, you're right. We'll probably never know what happened and will be restricted to theories, and one possibility, which many others believe in, is that it's God's (or some higher force's) work. That's pretty much the only theory most people can think of at the moment. Even if it sounds ridiculous, it's possible. Again, it's just my opinion.

The scientific community that you speak of, most of them believe in God as well. They, like me, just don't take the Bible as fact. They're not all atheists like you just because they believe in scientific concepts.

By the way you're making so many assumptions and attacking me for it, it looks like you're getting too aggressive for this thread, and this could get it closed. Let's just limit this to our personal opinions on the matter. I say this to everyone. Opinions. Because I've found that a lot of people don't know what that word means.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
I think you're taking what I said too seriously. I don't believe that God creates lightning or any of the stupid shit the Bible says that defies all logic, which is a large amount of it. In fact, sometimes I seriously doubt God's existence as well, but I'm not gonna convert to atheism. It sounds like you're just assuming that because I believe a higher force is responsible for creating time, that I believe that everything else religion freaks have suggested off the top of their heads is true. I'm not explaining everything I don't know for fact as "God did it" like you said. I use the term "proof" loosely.
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The problem is, you're still using the idea of personal incredulity to suggest that God must have created time because you, personally, can't think of another way it came about. It is no different than the Zeus/lightning bolt idea that you scoffed at, merely at a different point in history. There are many more theories than "God did it" to explain how time came about, and simply being "possible" does not grant it one ounce of credibility. Marginal's example of an alien shooting his ray gun is just as plausible because neither of them have a scrap of evidence in their favor.

I don't feel anyone here is trying to "convert" you to atheism, we're merely pointing out flaws in your logic. If time is so complex that it required a higher power to create, would that not mean that the deity is even more complex, and would require a designer itself? Then you repeat that ad infinitum.

If you're not willing to debate your opinion on the matter, why bother posting at all? You refine and expand your ideas by having a discourse with others. You gain nothing by typing your thoughts on the matter and getting upset when someone challenges those ideas.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I just believe that it's nice to think of an all powerful being that is watching you, because it sets a guideline on how to live your life. Want to go to heaven? (which may or may not exist) Be good. (sounds nice right? Cool, i'll be the best person i can.) Want to go to a place of eternal suffering and torment? (which may or may not exist). Errm No thanks (Okay, so i won't be bad.)

Pretty easy to live a good life when you're scared of being tormented and tortured right?
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

DivineChaos97 said:
I just believe that it's nice to think of an all powerful being that is watching you, because it sets a guideline on how to live your life. Want to go to heaven? (which may or may not exist) Be good. (sounds nice right? Cool, i'll be the best person i can.) Want to go to a place of eternal suffering and torment? (which may or may not exist). Errm No thanks (Okay, so i won't be bad.)

Pretty easy to live a good life when you're scared of being tormented and tortured right?
Click to expand...

Stupid thinking like this is why there is so much prejudice in the world. Plus Blackdragon is right, morality is subjective.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

DivineChaos97 said:
I just believe that it's nice to think of an all powerful being that is watching you, because it sets a guideline on how to live your life. Want to go to heaven? (which may or may not exist) Be good. (sounds nice right? Cool, i'll be the best person i can.) Want to go to a place of eternal suffering and torment? (which may or may not exist). Errm No thanks (Okay, so i won't be bad.)

Pretty easy to live a good life when you're scared of being tormented and tortured right?
Click to expand...

That's a short version of Pascal's Wager, which basically states that believing in a God leads to infinite reward if correct, and finite loss (non existence) if wrong. It then states that you are given infinite punishment if you don't believe and are wrong (hell) but only finite reward if you are right. Therefore, it is the logical thing to say you believe in God, even if you have reservations about it.

The reason it's flawed is that it makes the assumption that there is only one God that is correct. What if you spend your life believing in Christianity only to find Allah on the other side? How about Vishnu or Zeus? There are thousands of gods in existence, so you have a statistically poor chance in picking the "right" god.

Even if you picked the right God, wouldn't he see through your dishonest actions of believing only because you wanted a reward? If he's truly omniscient, he would have foreseen your ploy and condemned you to Hell anyways.

On a final note, isn't being moral only because you're afraid of repercussion bordering on immorality?
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

That's the thing with me though, I am very open minded with religion especially when it comes down to this kind of stuff. I always change my mind or come up with new theories on how there might only be 1 ultimate God with many different names and different ways to worship it. My mind works in weird ways, don't hate me for it.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
About my whole Big Bang statement, I'm not trying to push religion on anyone. I said it was my opinion, and I personally believe that that can prove his existence. To those who disagree, I ask you what your explanation for the beginning of time is? I think it should get an explanation other than "it just happened."
Click to expand...

I'm just posting one more thing in this thread and then I'm done.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It merely changes form. It is eternal. There was no beginning of time. Something has always been. There was no original creation. There was no starting point. There are merely curves and alterations. The concept that there was an original creation of the universe/time is a creationist concept.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Felix007 said:
Even if you picked the right God, wouldn't he see through your dishonest actions of believing only because you wanted a reward? If he's truly omniscient, he would have foreseen your ploy and condemned you to Hell anyways.
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QFT.

@ StrayDogStrut

Well, we have the opportunity to witness the biggest experiment this world has ever seen, and maybe some of the questions we have right now concerning the Big Bang will be solved in the LHC in CERN...questions like "Where the fuck does mass come from ?".

Lets chill and wait.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Felix007 said:
The problem is, you're still using the idea of personal incredulity to suggest that God must have created time because you, personally, can't think of another way it came about. It is no different than the Zeus/lightning bolt idea that you scoffed at, merely at a different point in history. There are many more theories than "God did it" to explain how time came about, and simply being "possible" does not grant it one ounce of credibility. Marginal's example of an alien shooting his ray gun is just as plausible because neither of them have a scrap of evidence in their favor.

I don't feel anyone here is trying to "convert" you to atheism, we're merely pointing out flaws in your logic. If time is so complex that it required a higher power to create, would that not mean that the deity is even more complex, and would require a designer itself? Then you repeat that ad infinitum.

If you're not willing to debate your opinion on the matter, why bother posting at all? You refine and expand your ideas by having a discourse with others. You gain nothing by typing your thoughts on the matter and getting upset when someone challenges those ideas.
Click to expand...

Well then, as I asked before, what are the other theories about how time and the universe began? I want to know, because if there's a better explanation than "God did it" or "It just happened," I really want to know, because if it's plausible, I'll probably believe in it over my "God did it" idea, because I'm not a creationist. I don't doubt that there's another explanation, I just can't conceive any other possibility. Obviously an alien requires time to fire a ray gun, so that's not as plausible as a formless force that can literally do what it wants creating it. Something like that, I believe, wouldn't need time. Strut's explanation sorta makes sense, but I don't understand how something cannot have a beginning. It pretty much throws the big bang theory out the window, and is nearly inconceivable to the human mind.

I recognize that my logic is flawed, but pretty much everything about a spirit in the sky watching and judging everyone at the same time has flawed logic. So in a way, my logic is just as flawed as everyone else who's not an atheist.

Why are you saying I'm not debating my opinion? You said it yourself- the reason I believe it is just because I don't know of any other way it could have happened. And as I said before, I know my logic is flawed, but you tell the same thing to everyone who believes in a god. And I don't get upset when people challenge my ideas. I get upset when people act like I'm an idiot because of an idea I have that I wasn't passionate about from the beginning.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
Well then, as I asked before, what are the other theories about how time and the universe began? I want to know, because if there's a better explanation than "God did it" or "It just happened," I really want to know, because if it's plausible, I'll probably believe in it over my "God did it" idea, because I'm not a creationist. I don't doubt that there's another explanation, I just can't conceive any other possibility. Obviously an alien requires time to fire a ray gun, so that's not as plausible as a formless force that can literally do what it wants creating it. Something like that, I believe, wouldn't need time. Strut's explanation sorta makes sense, but I don't understand how something cannot have a beginning. It pretty much throws the big bang theory out the window, and is nearly inconceivable to the human mind.

I recognize that my logic is flawed, but pretty much everything about a spirit in the sky watching and judging everyone at the same time has flawed logic. So in a way, my logic is just as flawed as everyone else who's not an atheist.

Why are you saying I'm not debating my opinion? You said it yourself- the reason I believe it is just because I don't know of any other way it could have happened. And as I said before, I know my logic is flawed, but you tell the same thing to everyone who believes in a god. And I don't get upset when people challenge my ideas. I get upset when people act like I'm an idiot because of an idea I have that I wasn't passionate about from the beginning.
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The Universe (as we understand it) began during the Big Bang, which was a rapid expansion of space-time. It functioned as a singularity, which strongly suggests that the laws of physics behaved in a different fashion during that time, much as they seem to do while in black holes. For the idea that there was a "beginning" at some point, there is the idea of an infinite universe as well as circular causality via a multiverse. Time does not necessarily have a beginning, we put labels on it as a human concept (and through dating methods such as dendrochronology or radiometric dating) as to better understand causality. There is no reason for it to have a true "beginning." Saying the Big Bang theory is thrown out the window because, to you, it is inconceivable, holds no water.

I'm not trying to take pot shots at you, I'm merely explaining flaws with the supposition of any God. The point of my reply was not to attack you, specifically.

No one was calling you an idiot, Manta responded in a semi-aggressive manner because of the way you presented your ideas as though God fixed these problems. You wanted an answer to how the Universe began by replacing a (currently) unexplained phenomenon with another unexplained phenomenon, God. That's all.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I might seem semi-aggressive as I see people do heinous things in the name of their religion, but we'll delve into that another time. The reason the post was so long was because after most discussions, certain questions are routinely asked, and that post had explanations to what I believed your next thoughts would be.

Anyways Y-Disciple ~ Scientists don't know a lot of answers to the universe. We've described why it's not the end of the world if we don't know everything *right now* ~ We're working on it, I'm sure it's impossible to be satisfied with our description of gravity or dark matter -- but it's the best we've got, and until you have a far better explanation, you'll just have to be satisfied. You really don't have a choice, as amazing claims require amazing evidence.

I think it's awesome that we're still exploring what the universe has to offer - it's not predetermined by some divine being (which by definition is more complex than the universe since he/she/it created it. .. so who created the creator?)

Though Straydogstrut points out a good example, that if God has always existed then time and the universe could have existed forever as well ~ it's not quite how it's understood at the moment. We've seen that the universe is expanding from a point where it used to be a single condensed singularity. Do plenty of studying on it, astronomy and cosmology ~ And you'll realize just how insignificant the human race, this planet and it's understanding is in comparison. Being agnostic is probably the best way to go (not entirely sure if there is a god) But I'm convinced he wouldn't waste his time performing miracles to illiterate peasants, word of which wouldn't reach China for 1000 years.

DC: You've just described Pascal's Wager (what do you have to lose?) Well, Felix beat me to it about choosing the correct God. It's probably good to do a lot of research on the subject, if of course you're interested ~

Humanity's got a long way to go =)

EDIT: Just posted as Felix did ~ timing, lol.


-Manta-
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Felix007 said:
It functioned as a singularity, which strongly suggests that the laws of physics behaved in a different fashion during that time, much as they seem to do while in black holes.
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Well and GOD created the singularity and here we go again.

@ Y-Discipline

Your request for a beginning of time and room is 100% human, but if you doubt physical explanations you gotta ask yourself the following question: " WHERE DID GOD COME FROM?".

If your answer is, well, he is allmighty and the beginning of everything, then you have to accept that the beginning out of singularity, which is the concentration of time and mass in one single point is as plausible as your God-Idea.

And if you are gonna ask "And where does the MASS in the singularity come from?", which is a 100% legitim question, you just gotta be patient, since this is one of the elementary questions which are tried to be solved at the Large-Hadron-Collidor in Switzerland.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Felix007 said:
The Universe (as we understand it) began during the Big Bang, which was a rapid expansion of space-time. It functioned as a singularity, which strongly suggests that the laws of physics behaved in a different fashion during that time, much as they seem to do while in black holes. For the idea that there was a "beginning" at some point, there is the idea of an infinite universe as well as circular causality via a multiverse. Time does not necessarily have a beginning, we put labels on it as a human concept (and through dating methods such as dendrochronology or radiometric dating) as to better understand causality. There is no reason for it to have a true "beginning." Saying the Big Bang theory is thrown out the window because, to you, it is inconceivable, holds no water.

I'm not trying to take pot shots at you, I'm merely explaining flaws with the supposition of any God. The point of my reply was not to attack you, specifically.

No one was calling you an idiot, Manta responded in a semi-aggressive manner because of the way you presented your ideas as though God fixed these problems. You wanted an answer to how the Universe began by replacing a (currently) unexplained phenomenon with another unexplained phenomenon, God. That's all.
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I'm not a physicist, so of course, I won't be able to fully understand how time can exist without a previous force besides itself triggering it, but I suppose if I look into it, I'll understand it more. Thank you for explaining it.

My original point though, was not that God created the big bang, but that simply, God exists. I used the big bang as an example because it seemed to be the strangest of phenomena I could think of. Now that you've explained it, I (sorta) know how God is not involved in this.

Anyways, I just wanted to give input and say that I do believe in God. Everyone can believe what they want, but unless there comes a time that fully proves God's nonexistence, I won't stop believing in Him. Sorry to create any controversy by the poor wording of my first post.

EDIT: The reason I gave God as an explanation for starting time, just for the record, was that I believe, theoretically, God is not a living being with a mind like humans, but rather a force that has no need for time, and therefore, if this was true, could potentially be a cause.
 
If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Y-Disciple said:
Everyone can believe what they want, but unless there comes a time that fully proves God's nonexistence
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I'll let ya know ahead of time that this is essentially impossible -- It's the same of asking you to prove that the grand meatball of all creation himself, the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. You simply can't do it any more than the god you might believe in ~ But yes, you're free to believe what you want, I'd just recommend that you have something to base it off of. You can understand it better if you did a bit of research ~ It couldn't hurt, right? =)


-Manta-
 
apologies if this was already stated..

Plume said:
And there I was wondering if I was the only one...
I don't believe in any god, but there HAS to be something somewhere that lives just to toy with me.
It's impossible for such repetitive, perfect bad luck, to "just happen".


To make by belief even stronger, when I was a kid, I was absurdly lucky.
In elementary schools, if we put our name on a paper and there was a prize for whoever got picked, the best prize was automatically mine.

So I went from impossible good luck to impossible bad luck.



(And when I play OR watch people play in SCIV, I can't help thinking that some people occasionally have extremely good luck, while others seem to have a streak of bad luck. I consider luck a trait, like strength potential, intelligence potential, etc.)
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well you inadvertently described what i believe to be the fundamental reason why the concept of god exists: to quell a lack of understanding.

lacking a causal understanding of things, or an admittance of random possibilities in certain situations, creates a void of comprehension, and shows the limitations of our current understandings. when we look up, so to speak, we see no end to our ignorance. instinctively fearing this void, we have historically capped our ignorance with the ultimate stopper of confusion, namely god. we gave this entity enough power to solve all of our problems at the time, and as we progress in knowledge of the world (and beyond), we gradually weaken his position. it seems inevitable to me that any remaining reasons for his existence will approach zero.

the more you know, the less you need him. at the moment, we are still severely lacking in knowledge, and we don't have enough explanations (perhaps some things cannot be explained definitively) to dismiss it conclusively, so it'll be around for a while yet.

i think that some of the phenomena described in this thread can be chalked up to unconscious motivation produced by one's self, the concept of which is not well-understood by most people i would say. people unintentionally sabotage and/or assisting themselves, continually or sporadically, contextually or not, all the time. for this sort of thing, i personally believe psychology and philosophy of mind to provide more satisfying answers than any god-type solution.

Felix007 said:
On a final note, isn't being moral only because you're afraid of repercussion bordering on immorality?
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ah, i love this sort of thing. this is a simple competence vs. performance issue as found in linguistics.

acting moral, whatever that means for wherever you happen to find yourself, is really just altering your intrinsic morality to fit some particular situation that your intrinsic morality is somehow incompatible with. you're essentially bending yourself to the will of some kind of consensus. under this consensus-based approach, i find it unlikely that anyone in, say, Canada would object to someone altering or suspending their morality wherein they believe that killing Canadians is, as Wilfred Brimly would say, "the right thing to do".

but anyway, whether or not you judge it ("being moral only because you're afraid of repercussion") to be immoral would depend on your own sense of morality. ;)
 
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