If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out...

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

That's generalizing a bit. It all depends on how you interpret the Bible (or whatever book you choose). What I see is that God would want us to be accepting of others regardless of race, sexuality, beliefs, etc. Religion can condradict science or it can agree with it, depending on who you ask.

A vast majority of the people in the United States disagree with the theory of evolution for no other reason than their pastor tells them to, or they want an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible. This leads to the "teach both sides" controversy (I say that word with disgust), despite the fact Creationism hasn't a shred of evidence in its favor. Then we have private universities teaching that evolution is a myth, passing it on to their children, etc. Evolution happens to be the unifying theory in biology, and has led to many advancements in the medical world, such as penicillin. When religious groups contradict science in such a way for no other reason than dogma, it can lead to massive repercussions when the next generation "takes over".

Sure, I'll give you that. But what point are you specifically trying to prove? Are you trying to say that because of these atrocities, it's wrong to believe in a god? I want to make sure you're not looking upon believers as inferior to you in any way, because we're all equals, just with different beliefs.

I don't believe his point was that you are inferior, but that religion can and has led to atrocities. The Crusades, the Inquisition, and the stoning of heretics before Newton's time are all prime examples. Contemporary actions include women's suffrage and homosexual marriage.

Yes, for all intents and purposes, if God existed and had a universal measure for morality, it would be arbitrary to us whether or not they are moral, though said god figure might have had some reasoning of his own for establishing such laws. You either broke the law or you didn't, which from a purely objective standard makes it prohibitively difficult to be moral with laws given by the likes of religion.

That sounds about right, hence my problem with the idea of moral absolutes from a deity. Some laws seem to hold no more weight than the idea that it's okay to kill people on Tuesdays, but only if they're wearing a purple hat and clown shoes. Moral relativism, or even humanism, if you can rationalize a universal standard via sentience, seems to fill the gap in a more logical fashion.

 

[Y-Disciple]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

A vast majority of the people in the United States disagree with the theory of evolution for no other reason than their pastor tells them to, or they want an extremely literal interpretation of the Bible. This leads to the "teach both sides" controversy (I say that word with disgust), despite the fact Creationism hasn't a shred of evidence in its favor.

A vast majority? I personally don't know a single person who doesn't believe in evolution. Unless you're referring to how it used to be fifty years ago.

 

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

A vast majority? I personally don't know a single person who doesn't believe in evolution. Unless you're referring to how it used to be fifty years ago.

I live in the deep south, so perhaps I'm incorrectly stating numbers based on my own regional statistics (close to the Bible Belt). A significant percentage would have been a better wording.

 

[Codemaster92163]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Well on a completely technical standpoint. It is completely impossible to prove that God exists. It is, in fact, possible to prove that he does. Don't go yelling at me for saying that, because im actually an atheist. Im just stating facts. You cannot prove something is not there, but you can only prove that it IS in fact there. Its *well, not really common, more like well thought* knowledge.

For example. We cannot prove that unicorns are not real (Im using that as an example, so shut it =p.) We can, however, eventually prove they are real should they actually exist. There is no proof currently that they are 100% none existent. However, it is a 99.9% chance that they are not, so don't get your hopes up n_n .

EDIT! To add upon my beliefs, I can't stand believing in things that have (as someone mentioned, I think) caused so many hardships/atrocities in the past and teach somewhat hypocritical views. I have nothing against catholics or any other religious people, considering especially the fact that most of my family, dad and sister excluded, are catholics or jewish (odd mix, I know.) Religion has caused wars, fact. Catholicism teaches to love and treat others as equals, however its normally the catholics that spew venom towards gays and atheists, fact. The bible says God loves you, but it also says that he will condemn you to hell if you don't believe in him, or if you are born gay (In some translations,) fact. My friend whom I have known since we were in kindergarden is gay, and I can't stand it when people in my school say hes going to hell just because he is different than them. Its wrong, and I can't stand that a somewhat large percentage of catholics say things like that. I don't mean large as in a majority, but large as in a number that really shouldn't be as high as it is.

I don't mind anyone sharing or having beliefs. I just can't stand it when people are assholes because they think you are inferior to them since they believe in something, or just because you are different and not approved of in some book. Again, im not stereotyping anyone, but it is also a fact that those who are devoted to a religion generally show less tolerance to those who are different.

Damn, I went on a rant and I did not mean to. My bad =p

This just makes me giggle though lol!

 

[Gegliosch]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Quote: Originally Posted by KoshTheKoala (Post ID: #81909)
As Manta said earlier, belief in god has caused most of the world's most evil acts (with Stalin being one of the very few exceptions). A world in which no one can say "god told me to" to defend themselves after killing dozens or hundreds or thousands of people would be a much better world. What if, after 9/11, the entire Arab world condemned Al-Qaeda for the terrorists they are and actively hunted them down? What if there was never a Biblical excuse for slavery or racism or any other hate-crime?

Sure, I'll give you that. But what point are you specifically trying to prove? Are you trying to say that because of these atrocities, it's wrong to believe in a god? I want to make sure you're not looking upon believers as inferior to you in any way, because we're all equals, just with different beliefs.

It's not a bad thing at all to believe in some kind of god or whatever else, if it helps to give your life a meaning or a direction. This implies that you realize it's only a belief and you don't try to persuade others by force.

However, this also explains why I have a problem with religious institutions. They just have much more influence on economy, politics and moral decisions than they should have, due to wealth, popularity and power (maybe even some kind of military). Religion can never be a justification for anything since it's nothing more than a belief others may disagree with. Morals taught in various "holy scriptures" are no exception. They are usually dogmatic and thousands of years old, although the conditions in this world constantly change and as somebody stated before, moral is subjective.
The fact, that some religions are popular enough to be taught in schools, officially accepted to contradict science or even abused as a justification for wars and so on, is unacceptable to me for this reason.

Don't get me wrong, I encourage everybody to create their own theories about our origin, even if they seem to be unlikely to others. I just think that everybody should have the chance to do this without being influenced from the day of his birth and I demand that religious institutions restrain from influencing politics and education or setting up their own rules, possibly contradicting laws.

 

[Freaky]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

There is life after death.

[youtube="Reanimated Dog Corpse"]739DPi7dAOM[/youtube]

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!!!!!

 

[JetSetDizzy]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

if you claim that something exists, then then burden of proof is on you. it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something.

part of the problem with these types of arguments is that faith in something intangible or not-yet proven is not arrived at by reason, but by some set of experiences. since it has no logical and empirical motivation, it's almost silly to try to impose reason on a belief that is fundamentally irrational. that is not to say that those who believe in a god are irrational people-- certainly we all have some sort of irrational beliefs-- it's just to say that since this type of belief is at its core not rational, and therefore cannot be defended from a rational or logical framework.

Belief in God is not fundamentally irrational, can you explain what fundamentals of rationality that are contradicted by a God?. You do not need proof to believe that something exists because unprovable things could be true and cannot be disproven so they remain as a maybe. The idea of God is at least an attempt to explain the creation of the universe. Nothing can come of nothing right? And its mathematically impossible for the universe to have existed forever, because with an infinite regression of events you would never reach the now since an infinite cannot be overcome.

Felix the freewill thing was on of the biggest things that stopped me from believing for a long time, but before I beleived in God I did not believe in freewill at all. I actually ended up just thinking that maybe God doesn't know everything that is going to happen. Or maybe if God exists outside of normal space and time its not as simple as God knew before you did it because God isn't an entity that moves forward in time in a straight line like we do.

I have to say that I don't think being gay is a sin, its only real mention is in an old section of the bible with a lot of other "guidelines" that have been overruled by new testament writings such as not eating pork (pork was very hard to keep properly clean in that era), and you wouldn't go to hell for it. Christians who shun gay people should be ashamed because even if it was a sin, they are driving people from God. You would however go to hell for a load of other stuff you probably do daily. However since Jesus accepted the burden of everyone's sins when he died on the cross, you only have to accept his sacrifice to be totally forgiven. I would say that I definitely don't like that people who don't believe got to hell, but that's why I would try to convince whoever was willing to listen that God does exist.

Some translators of the Bible have taken it upon themselves to make minor changes (I don't understand what makes them think they have the authority to do so.) For example the name of God is mostly or totally absent from most English bibles, and because of this a lot of people don't even know it.

Let me know if I am mistating something because its late and I am speaking from memory.

 

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Belief in God is not fundamentally irrational, can you explain what fundamentals of rationality that are contradicted by a God?. You do not need proof to believe that something exists because unprovable things could be true and cannot be disproven so they remain as a maybe. The idea of God is at least an attempt to explain the creation of the universe. Nothing can come of nothing right? And its mathematically impossible for the universe to have existed forever, because with an infinite regression of events you would never reach the now since an infinite cannot be overcome.

Actually, see Quantum Mechanics for "things coming from nothing", or the possibility that some things are self caused (not to mention the Casmir Effect). There's also the difference between a potential infinite and an actual infinite with the concept of the universe. I'm not a physicist, so I don't think I would be able to do the explanation justice.

Felix the freewill thing was on of the biggest things that stopped me from believing for a long time, but before I beleived in God I did not believe in freewill at all. I actually ended up just thinking that maybe God doesn't know everything that is going to happen. Or maybe if God exists outside of normal space and time its not as simple as God knew before you did it because God isn't an entity that moves forward in time in a straight line like we do.

How did you come to that conclusion? I believe the Bible is pretty explicit in the idea that God is omniscient.

1 John 3:19-20 [19] This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence [20] whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Which also raises an interesting question: If God is omniscient, he knows where you will go before you are born. Does that mean he creates souls for the sole purpose of burning in Hell?

I have to say that I don't think being gay is a sin, its only real mention is in an old section of the bible with a lot of other "guidelines" that have been overruled by new testament writings such as not eating pork (pork was very hard to keep properly clean in that era), and you wouldn't go to hell for it. Christians who shun gay people should be ashamed because even if it was a sin, they are driving people from God. You would however go to hell for a load of other stuff you probably do daily. However since Jesus accepted the burden of everyone's sins when he died on the cross, you only have to accept his sacrifice to be totally forgiven. I would say that I definitely don't like that people who don't believe got to hell, but that's why I would try to convince whoever was willing to listen that God does exist.

Why assume we are born broken? That we require some divine forgiveness to be whole? Did God not create (or know his actions would lead to) Hell? If he is the primary cause of everything in our Universe, ultimately, we only need "redemption" from sin because he created it. He should not need to send Jesus down for a blood sacrifice, he would be capable of snapping his fingers and we would be saved.

I also have a problem that, ultimately, belief in God supersedes morality. To use an extreme example, someone that worked in an orphanage and devoted their lives to the betterment of others would go to Hell regardless should they deny God. However, someone who lived a truly atrocious life, possibly even a murderer, could repent (as in truly repent and be sorrowful for their actions) and be saved.

Again, the irony being that you require salvation from something that God ultimately caused in the first place.

 

[Codemaster92163]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Well actually some believe he doesn't predetermine where you will go. That is a whole other term that not many people are familiar with, but I won't bore you with details.

 

[LKV]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Belief in God is not fundamentally irrational, can you explain what fundamentals of rationality that are contradicted by a God?. You do not need proof to believe that something exists because unprovable things could be true and cannot be disproven so they remain as a maybe. The idea of God is at least an attempt to explain the creation of the universe. Nothing can come of nothing right? And its mathematically impossible for the universe to have existed forever, because with an infinite regression of events you would never reach the now since an infinite cannot be overcome.

well i haven't slept yet but i'll try to answer this anyway.

i think there might be a misunderstanding concerning my use of the term "irrational". i don't mean it to be a synonym of "crazy" or a symptom of a chemical imbalance or anything of the sort. what i mean is that there is no 2+2=god type explanation. you can't come to the conclusion that there is a god by using the same cognitive tools (logic, reason) in the same way you can make any other kind of discovery about the world (in fact, my original post in this thread essentially stated that you typically come to believe in a god because of precisely what you don't know). and even if you could, it is not really a testable explanation because there is no predictive power in the theory that is verifiable in any objective sense (at least yet). gods are not directly observable, so there is nothing that can definitively show that they are there, and they are not even indirectly observable. sure the bible or some other holy scripture can make predictions about stuff, but nobody can say anything factual about what those results are, and be able to say that, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was god who did it. the system simply doesn't allow it... it is not falsifiable. the god of the bible is possibly the worst offender of this because he can do anything... his power is limitless... there is nothing that he can't do... (although it is curious that there are several things that he won't do.....).

the only way that you come to the conclusion that there is a god, unless you came up with the idea yourself, is that someone told you that's it's true, or at the very least possible. that's it. this is not a rational belief in the sense i alluded to above. this is merely an act of faith (essentially believing because you want to, which is fine), and because of that, it doesn't really make sense to apply a rational understanding of the whole thing because it isn't rational to begin with. therefore as i tried to say in my previous post, a dialogue about proving the existence of something that you know exists simply because you know it exists really can't go anywhere-- the person on the other end of the dialogue is asking for things that you can't provide. the setting is logical (i.e. let's have a logical discussion about something using human language which is composed of logical relations between words) but the subject matter is something that resists logical explanation, because a god can't be broken down, not even in theory.

and yes you're right-- you don't need proof to believe anything. but the question is this: if you get proof of something, and it contradicts or falls in the same slot as a belief you held, and you can try that proof over and over and it keeps coming out exactly the same, what do you do with it?

i'm not sure you can say that god is an attempt to explain the origins of the universe, exactly. the book of genesis is an attempt to explain the beginning of what they thought the universe was, way back when the story was first uttered. but this is a small issue-- i know what you're trying to say. but my point again is that god is used as a way to explain anything that we didn't understand, or couldn't agree on, or simply didn't know.

about math and physics with regards to problem of the big bang: the interesting thing about them is that they are systems that can keep growing in explanatory power and/or descriptive power, and one day might provide an answer, if someone hasn't figured it out already. a god is a closed system, and so the answer that a god can provide right now is the best one that they could ever provide. neither gives a satisfactory account at the present time, IMO, but there is more hope in a system that can grow and adapt to the challenge, rather than one that is allegedly so powerful it can't even be questioned or refined.

 

[LargeBillsONLY]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I like how one of the tags is "imaginary_friends".

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the situation. There is absolutely nothing that says the Bible, or anything written before or after it, is more valid than say, ancient Nordic beliefs that detail Thor drinking up a third of the world's ocean and throwing lightning bolts at people that don't worship and make the right sacrifices. Hell, I'd argue a lot of other old-world religions often made a hell of a lot more sense. So much modern bigotry and violence has its roots in religions that claim to be peaceful that it's amazing to me at times how much bullshit people can come up with to defend it.

I find that people just have this fundamental need to believe in something. First they decide on what that is, and then the most fatal thing to human advancement happens: their mind shuts down. They stop asking question or wanting explanations. Instead they'll just defend it at all costs and try to find reasons why rather than taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture of it all.

Me? I'm just too logical for that. "Faith" where you stop asking, stop thinking, and stop questioning this authority that tells you to shut up and believe is, in a word, pathetic. Religion's been molded throughout time to fit the ruling class's mold of population control. The mold's changed so many times that there's had to be new strains of religion (like a virus) formed so it can go on.

Religion has been used throughout history as a tool to move the masses, even when many of them sprung from roots that were entirely against just that concept. It's very sad. You know how ridiculous Scientology is known to be? If you know anything about history, Catholicism can easily make that shit look legit. Scientology was formed to make money and it has been wildly successful in that. So has Christianity, but Christianity among other Judaic-offshoots has really pushed the envelope - it's been used to create war, push political agendas, justify countless lower-scaled atrocities, and yeah, just make huge amounts of money as well. Islam's just as bad too, but shit, at least they're upfront about it, what with the Quran openly talking about the destruction of infidels and whatnot.

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I live in the deep south, so perhaps I'm incorrectly stating numbers based on my own regional statistics (close to the Bible Belt). A significant percentage would have been a better wording.

Well actually some believe he doesn't predetermine where you will go. That is a whole other term that not many people are familiar with, but I won't bore you with details.

Then God wouldn't be all-knowing, would he?

That's why I mentioned in my first post in this thread that there is no free will. If a god is all-knowing, he/she/it will know the future before it happens. Thus while you may think you have free will, the choice you ultimately make has already been forseen by god.

 

[Gegliosch]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I'm really glad about such a great discussion within a video game community. Gamers seem to have a very bad reputation as being childish or lacking social competences. I can't recall reading something with that many intelligent thoughts on any other board.

 

[LargeBillsONLY]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Yeah, funny how we can have a relatively civil discussion on religion but if Algol or Hilde come up, watch out!

 

[Manta]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Yeah, funny how we can have a relatively civil discussion on religion but if Algol or Hilde come up, watch out!

indeed ~

Just from recently, a scary thought would be the U.N.'s attempt at making a law that would prohibit any degrading or insulting statement against someone's faith here in the US, even though we're supposed to have a separation from church and state. In other words, you criticize someone's beliefs, it's a crime and you go to jail. Why should religion get any form of respect, especially when there's so much of it that promotes such bigotry and intolerance? They get tax exemption? Now they're teaching young earth creationism in parts of the country (You mean the Flintstones wasn't a documentary?) It's quite sad imo.

As much as I want to see modern society progress, it seems like religion is one of bigger things that's holding it back.


-Manta-

 

[BlackDragon37]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

"Science develops best when its concepts and conclusions are integrated into the broader human culture and its concerns for ultimate meaning and value. Scientists cannot, therefore, hold themselves entirely aloof from the sorts of issues dealt with by philosophers and theologians. By devoting to these issues something of the energy and care they give to their research in science, they can help others realize more fully the human potentialities of their discoveries. They can also come to appreciate for themselves that these discoveries cannot be a genuine substitute for knowledge of the truly ultimate. Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish."

- Pope John Paul II.

Anyone agree with this statement?

 

[Freaky]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

I don't have any problem with people believing in God. I can't prove he does or doesn't exist. What I do have a problem with is mindless adherence to religious institutions and traditions. Lots of the institutions are almost tyrannical in nature, and only slow the advancement of the human race. They offer nothing to modern world but a false sense of security and purpose. Although, sometimes that's all some people need.

One of my best friends is a hardcore muslim. One day I asked him, "Why do you follow all this stuff man? What do you really get out of it?"

"I get a warm feeling of peace inside, and the real rewards come in the next life."

To someone who's maybe looking for purpose or down on their luck and is willing to suspend logical reasoning, this sounds like a great offer. You get so much for doing so little, (this is probably why people are so easily indoctrinated).
But that "warm feeling of peace" is just the effect of neurotransmitters reacting positively to the false sense of security you've given yourself. That's why when a doctor is doing a brain scan for a disease and the person starts praying, that shit lights up like Christmas. Yes, if you're a believer in the traditions you're following, praying gives your brain a boner.

Also, as far as the afterlife life goes, why is depressing to think that there is nothingness after death? Where were you before you were born? Are you depressed when you're in stage 4 sleep? The absence of consciousness sounds liberating to me. To think that your personality deserves to live on after you're dead is......maybe the most selfish idea I've ever heard.

 

[BlackDragon37]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

And why do people see selfishness as a bad thing?

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

To think that your personality deserves to live on after you're dead is......maybe the most selfish idea I've ever heard.

Hmm...seems like you don't deal with many selfish people. In general, one man's entrance into heaven isn't exclusive to anyone else's. More selfish imo, would be like cutting down a rainforest and not caring because you got money, and that happens all the time. I'm sure it doesn't take that much creativity to think of many more selfish things one could possibly do.

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

And why do people see selfishness as a bad thing?

It's not. Capitalism is based 100% on selfishness and how it can be a very good thing.