RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
and I actually thought you couldnt get any dumber...
You def sound like a hater though...
Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Bullseyeboy277
- Start date
- Status
and I actually thought you couldnt get any dumber...
You def sound like a hater though...
ChaosK
[13] Hero
I think there is actually a very big top tier cast in this game. Who those characters are is debatable but i'd say there are around 5-10 charas that are very efficient and outshine the rest.
That makes the game look more balanced than it actually is - the strong characters don't feel that overpowered because there is a variety of other strong characters that can keep up with them.
But that doesn't make them less oppressive towards the rest of the cast.
That makes the game look more balanced than it actually is - the strong characters don't feel that overpowered because there is a variety of other strong characters that can keep up with them.
But that doesn't make them less oppressive towards the rest of the cast.
Supa
[10] Knight
I think we're confused as to our meanings of "tier lists." An official tier list is a compilation of opinions from tournament level players that imply a confidence during a match-up. For example, I might say that I am 40% confident that I can beat Poe with Nightmare placing that match-up at 4 to 6. The overall average of confidences produces the actual tier list.
People of the internet clambering about how overpowered someone is DOES NOT make a tier list. Discussing how painful stabs are DOES NOT make a tier list. Discussing tech like QS DOES NOT make a tier list. Logical reasoning DOES NOT make a tier list.
There are many examples of past games where people simply said Ivy was unusable garbage. Yet she rose up to significantly high levels in official tier lists rather quickly. If you want a list of legitimate opinions to speculate on then find the French tier list. Then understand that the tier list they have compiled *has already changed* since the patch and other game play aspects have emerged.
tenguegg
[08] Mercenary
Really just talking about semantics. You don't have to be a tournament level player to make a tier list, in fact many tournament level players have terrible opinions and are often wrong because they're great players and not theorycrafters. Example: Justin Wong, highly regarded as one of the best FG players in the world, also notoriously incorrect on the potential of many characters. Then you have people who aren't that great, low executonal ability, but genius when it comes to picking apart games.
I fail to see the point in your second paragraph, I never implied any of those things make a tier list, quite the opposite in fact.
All I got from your original post is that early tier lists ( People whining is not a tier list, a tier list is a tier list ) are night useless and provide no insight and its pointless to even try and formulate one just because its early in the games life. What bothers me is when people are like "lolxD games only been out a few weeks y bother talking about how stronk characters r????".
I fail to see the point in your second paragraph, I never implied any of those things make a tier list, quite the opposite in fact.
All I got from your original post is that early tier lists ( People whining is not a tier list, a tier list is a tier list ) are night useless and provide no insight and its pointless to even try and formulate one just because its early in the games life. What bothers me is when people are like "lolxD games only been out a few weeks y bother talking about how stronk characters r????".
Supa
[10] Knight
Non-competitive players create tier lists because they're smarter than the jock high-execution guys? I don't think that's what you meant to say and I'm sure I've taken it out of context.....
In reality, all of that will eventually bubble-up into tournament play that will eventually, in turn, sink down into casual play in an endless cycle. There are no magic brick walls that prevent this from happening. The game evolves on your own whether or not you're making fluffy posts on a forum about how good you think someone should be.
Tier lists don't reflect the skilled execution of all characters - only a confidence rating. You can see examples of low tier characters (like Tager) absolutely destroying higher tier characters (like Noel) in matches with tournament players of approximately the same skill. Those matches, however, are the exception (the example match-up went quite the opposite way later). This is where the opinion of confidence comes in from tournament players using tech they've learned from everyone and the eventual evolution away from early tier lists.
I skipped most of your post, but I'm glad to see we agree on this.
In reality, all of that will eventually bubble-up into tournament play that will eventually, in turn, sink down into casual play in an endless cycle. There are no magic brick walls that prevent this from happening. The game evolves on your own whether or not you're making fluffy posts on a forum about how good you think someone should be.
Tier lists don't reflect the skilled execution of all characters - only a confidence rating. You can see examples of low tier characters (like Tager) absolutely destroying higher tier characters (like Noel) in matches with tournament players of approximately the same skill. Those matches, however, are the exception (the example match-up went quite the opposite way later). This is where the opinion of confidence comes in from tournament players using tech they've learned from everyone and the eventual evolution away from early tier lists.
I skipped most of your post, but I'm glad to see we agree on this.
I was thinking about this exact same thing when reading a lot of the posts here, I've replied to some of them. Some person coming in with their hands waving around blasting an airhorn saying "WOAH WOAH WOAH GUYS, shut the fuck up about this. let the game breathe. Fucking scrubs" in a discussion they don't want to participate in is quite odd and annoying.
I agree with MOST everything you said also.
EastredDragon
[09] Warrior
So I just played Mitsurugi's list, and from the distance I'm going to say he's middle to higher tier. Sure, he's not as noob friendly as he was before, but dear god the potential they gave him now.
Zoidberg747
[10] Knight
He is one of the top tier imo. His potential like you said is astonishing. Now if I could just get him to a decent level.
Bushido
[09] Warrior
In my opinion Mitsu is at the top.
He's got an answer for most situations. great damage potential, amazing lows, good step killers, decent range, his punishment isn't the best, but it's not bad either. He can force you make a wrong guess and eat a ton of damage.
He's got an answer for most situations. great damage potential, amazing lows, good step killers, decent range, his punishment isn't the best, but it's not bad either. He can force you make a wrong guess and eat a ton of damage.
tenguegg
[08] Mercenary
Yes, out of context, but still close. They don't do it BECAUSE they're smarter, they do it because you don't need to be a competitive player to analyze the tools and data that contribute to making a tier list. Tier lists are all about maximum potential, in a vacuum where no mistakes are allowed. Tournament players do not exhibit this, no one does.
I also gave you an example of a competitive player that has failed repeatedly in placing characters anywhere close to their actual tier. Like I said, you don't have to be a theorycrafter to be an excellent fighting game player, but you do if you want to make tier lists.
Yep, the game does evolve, and it only hinders the process if people don't share their opinion. Why is it such a common occurrence for people to say "GIVE THE GAME TIME DONT SHARE YOUR OPINION" if it doesn't hurt anyone, and only helps? Time is not a factor whatsoever. Two years down the line people will still be saying the same kind of statements. Five years, Ten years, afaik MVC2 is still evolving and changing their tier lists
Not sure what you're trying to argue here, tier lists aren't based around tournament results, tournament results are only a reflection of the skill of the players that were there, not the maximum potential of all characters.
Again, taken out of context, I was merely saying thats what you were trying to state. I don't agree whatsoever, and i've already stated why
Anyway i'm done here, I seem to have forgotten how many hoops a person has to go through only to end up at step one of a discussion.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
WTF is this nonsense. Nobody deserves to be calling the shots on any character's ranking unless it's their main character and they've proven it in tournaments. Everyone else is a wannabe theorist.
I am utterly amazing with Pyrrha. I can't even decide what tier she is overall. Maybe A-.
Let's see how humble the rest of you are. LOL, yeah right.
I am utterly amazing with Pyrrha. I can't even decide what tier she is overall. Maybe A-.
Let's see how humble the rest of you are. LOL, yeah right.
Supa
[10] Knight
This is my point - the above is absolutely false basis for a tier list. Completely and absolutely false. The words "tier list" and "playing in a vacuum of pure potential" don't even have a relationship.
Let's apply this to another game just for a really stupid example. So a pawn in chess can only move vertically, but has the option to convert to a queen, knight, rook or bishop when it reaches the other side of the board. Bishops do not have this ability. The pawn in Chess therefore must clearly be much higher tier than any of the pieces it has the potential to become since it can not only become that piece but others as well.
This might seem logical. Pawns for SS+ Tier! This is rubbish. This is the same thinking that some other user expressed when he said that CPU vs CPU - Nightmare is the worst character in the game since the CPU couldn't beat other characters consistently. All rubbish.
Tournament player generated tier lists give us insight into what a professional player who has dedicated much time and energy into forging what they believe to be a tournament strong play style with a specific (or a few) characters. These players have dedicated much time and energy into techniques for plausible scenarios that they feel confident in.
To put it another way.... how many boxers do you know that strengthen one arm with one single punching technique? Surely, using only jabs will eventually wear your opponent out - so why bother with the rest of the techniques? On paper, it's totally legit!
Finally, if there really were characters with clearly better all around options in every scenario in a modern fighting game.... why would it be successful?
The only hoop you're missing is taking the time to understand something. You can Excel sheet SCV all day long and you know who is going to win tournaments? Probably not the person who wins your Excel sheet battle.
That match was really about SawnikFaux has no idea how to deal with Pyrrha. Ramon wasn't just punishing, he was murdering Viola's Guard with 4B and 66B(BE), and SF had no idea how to deal with it. He doesn't even recognize 236A BE has a 3rd hit and ate 2 combo after blocking the first 2 hits.
Gabedamien
I Want To Be Happy
Balance is looking pretty damn good so far when
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
@gabedamien
Links for vids? pretty please?
Links for vids? pretty please?
Gabedamien
I Want To Be Happy
I’m looking for that right now myself. There’s this. Not sure if it’s complete, I’m just looking over it this instant.
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
thanks dude. I'm curious about how the new Ivy is played @the high level
I'm really worried about QS4G affecting this though. I'm not sure how many people have it down yet and if not it could really make things ugly.
That said i'm pretty happy so far that no one is really pulling ahead. Only a few who i'd say aren't viable and so far nobody who i see as too good.
^Actually Tier-list balancing is a shapeless thing. All we do here in this thread is discuss observations about strenghts/weaknesses the characters have. Tier lists arent really about maximum potential, never have been.
We create a tierlist based on the characters tools and moves, as we can directly compare similar fighters to eachother. So when it comes to pure rushdown characters right now Id tend to say that alpha patronum is always a tier above everyone else --> a tier list starts.
It all doesnt matter thought because tier lists get a much better ground after a couple of big tournaments are done.
In T6 for example after a while it became obvious which characters were top tier as they constantly kept popping up in every tournaments top 10. Same will happen here.
Its basically a consensus between the best players. Within a top 10 of a tourney the skill gap usually isnt very big, so when someone constantly performs better than others within the same level, its definatly a tier/matchup thing.
But yeah, max potential is just theorycrafting which is not very useful and applicable as its a state that will never be reached. If max potential would matter for tier lists Bryan Fury would have been #1 in T6 forever, which wasnt the case looking at tourney outcomes.
We create a tierlist based on the characters tools and moves, as we can directly compare similar fighters to eachother. So when it comes to pure rushdown characters right now Id tend to say that alpha patronum is always a tier above everyone else --> a tier list starts.
It all doesnt matter thought because tier lists get a much better ground after a couple of big tournaments are done.
In T6 for example after a while it became obvious which characters were top tier as they constantly kept popping up in every tournaments top 10. Same will happen here.
Its basically a consensus between the best players. Within a top 10 of a tourney the skill gap usually isnt very big, so when someone constantly performs better than others within the same level, its definatly a tier/matchup thing.
But yeah, max potential is just theorycrafting which is not very useful and applicable as its a state that will never be reached. If max potential would matter for tier lists Bryan Fury would have been #1 in T6 forever, which wasnt the case looking at tourney outcomes.
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
What kind of tier lists have you been making/reading?
- Status