Is a Nightmare nerf coming? =(

Engared said:
The big one is the nerf to back-step cancelling with G. Though everyone has been hit by this, this affects NM significantly. I think it will just be similar to SC4's backstep now, but with increased distance.
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I just learned how to backstep. Now I have to be all careful with it and shit...
 
One thing that keeps bothering me is you guys talking about SC4 NM's use of Step G. What the hell do you get out of doing Step G? Nothing. You don't have enough frames to step press G confirm a whiff and punish effectively. That strat was useless in 4. What was done was Step Attack. Fundamentally it's risker, but at least you gained something from stepping. So really NM hasn't really changed at all.

They nerfed my B+KG? Really. Why?
 
KingAce said:
One thing that keeps bothering me is you guys talking about SC4 NM's use of Step G. What the hell do you get out of doing Step G? Nothing. You don't have enough frames to step press G confirm a whiff and punish effectively. That strat was useless in 4. What was done was Step Attack. Fundamentally it's risker, but at least you gained something from stepping. So really NM hasn't really changed at all.

They nerfed my B+KG? Really. Why?
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No King, Step G in SC4 gave you advantage. On some moves, an opponent's whiff would give you a free attack (can't think of any now) or it gave you a throw/3B mix-up as you were +10 or so (not exact numbers). A full step of course was ideal as it gave you a guarantee but Step G was very strong as well. It also allowed you to get out of a lot of set ups, such as Sieg's SRSH K/B, a step G right to the side would make those whiff and be safe against SRSH A for example.
A full step in that situation would leave you vulnerable to a step killer.

It was a safer but less rewarding alternative to a full-step whiff.
 
Wow, Maxi got hit way harder than I thought he would...

...And just so, much, stuff happened to Tira. Didn't really see that coming.

Aside from that this seems like a fairly not radical patch.
 
Engared said:
No King, Step G in SC4 gave you advantage. On some moves, an opponent's whiff would give you a free attack (can't think of any now) or it gave you a throw/3B mix-up as you were +10 or so (not exact numbers). A full step of course was ideal as it gave you a guarantee but Step G was very strong as well. It also allowed you to get out of a lot of set ups, such as Sieg's SRSH K/B, a step G right to the side would make those whiff and be safe against SRSH A for example.
A full step in that situation would leave you vulnerable to a step killer.

It was a safer but less rewarding alternative to a full-step whiff.
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Well that's a situational step G. That kills a possible mixup. Like Step G to kill Yoshimitsu's Dragonfly options. I am talking about neutral Step Gs where you don't know what your opponent is throwing out. Since whiff punishing was NM's second option from throw/mid. Step Attack really became the standard. Ideally you wanted to whiff punish with 3B. However, with Step G you were more than likely to miss the punishment widow especially against faster characters, like sophie. So I saw more players in general use Step Attack. Really the removal of step g in SCV hasn't effected me at all. Since I took these risks with Raphael and Zasalamel as well.
 
KingAce said:
Well that's a situational step G. That kills a possible mixup. Like Step G to kill Yoshimitsu's Dragonfly options. I am talking about neutral Step Gs where you don't know what your opponent is throwing out. Since whiff punishing was NM's second option from throw/mid. Step Attack really became the standard. Ideally you wanted to whiff punish with 3B. However, with Step G you were more than likely to miss the punishment widow especially against faster characters, like sophie. So I saw more players in general use Step Attack. Really the removal of step g in SCV hasn't effected me at all. Since I took these risks with Raphael and Zasalamel as well.
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The neutral step G was a safer option to full step. I used full step mostly when i predicted my opponent was going to use a vertical (i'm not the only one, most of the top players in SC4 abused step-g regardless of what character they were using). However step-g from neutral allowed you as I said to be safer and should an opponent whiff, you would either:

a) get a free attack like against Sophie's TAS B, you would get 3B if not mistaken even if you used step-G, if not she will have to eat a mix-up and throw would beat most of her options including AA. Against faster recovery moves such as BB, you can substitute 3B with 11K, 6K, 4KK etc.

b) Leave you safe from potential step-killers if you opponent uses a +17 frame step killer including NM's agA and Sophie's 66A for example.
 
You would have to show me.

TAS B is bad example considering how difficult it is to actually step.
Lets take a move like 236B which is -20 on block. NM's 3B is i23, if you step G confirm that 236B has whiffed, I doubt you punish it on time...maybe in practice...

It's all well and good in theory, but in actuality...when you step G you have to confirm the whiff, which adds time and slows down your punishment. While with step attack you don't have those extra frames so you could punish something like a BB with 3B...and considering the fact that you get so much from 3B, It's a risk you want to take(since NM is probably fighting from behind). Also the other problem with Step G is the fact that NM was always excessively blocking so taking SG damage in the process.
 
Some of the posts in the last page or two were too long and I didn't read them lol. Please lets not get too sidetracked with online vs offline player discussion here.

Regarding the NM patch notes:

66B - lengthened opponent's freeze on block. the move is only like -2 on block now so if they increase opponent block freeze that means it is probably either neutral or advantage on guard now

Throw damage nerfs: this is a lazy and stupid nerf. both throws do less than 50 damage? ok thanks. Guess we will have to spam flapjack even more than we already do. what fun

B+K~G: stupid change but IMO not damaging in any significant way
 
About 66B, do you think the frame advantage on hit is better too so that NM can do ground combo (GS K BE for example) or it doesn't affect it at all ?
 
IkI said:
About 66B, do you think the frame advantage on hit is better too so that NM can do ground combo (GS K BE for example) or it doesn't affect it at all ?
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It's probably the same on hit. It says that it increased opponent's blockstun, not 66B's recovery time. If 66B recovery time was increased then maybe you could do better combos but that isn't what it says.


Also keep in mind the damage numbers for his throws may be incorrect. Algol has an incorrect damage on his change list. It says his 44B dmg went from 30 > 34 but I'm pretty sure it only does 24 now not 30. So Nightmare's grab damage might not get nerfed quite as hard as it says if we are lucky.
 
NM was pretty much left alone with the patch.

Don't like the throw damage nerf but I can live with it. Just glad that they took out the stepG and "fuzzy jump guard"
 
as long as that grab range isn't nerf down to Sieg's i'm ok with the damage decrease. What do you guys think of the backdash changes? yes it affects all characters but it sorta kills NM's mobility, i used to be able to do 4 88 4 88 4 88 in repeat successions but now it seems this is gone.
 
hteng said:
as long as that grab range isn't nerf down to Sieg's i'm ok with the damage decrease. What do you guys think of the backdash changes? yes it affects all characters but it sorta kills NM's mobility, i used to be able to do 4 88 4 88 4 88 in repeat successions but now it seems this is gone.
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Siegs grab range is good. I thought they had the same grab range?
 
hteng said:
as long as that grab range isn't nerf down to Sieg's i'm ok with the damage decrease. What do you guys think of the backdash changes? yes it affects all characters but it sorta kills NM's mobility, i used to be able to do 4 88 4 88 4 88 in repeat successions but now it seems this is gone.
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it's a grab damage nerf not a grab range nerf

as for the backdash changes, all it says is that it takes longer to cancel a backstep with guard. I think the 214 x n backdash canceling may still work
 
Hmm interesting, that would explain nm's grab damage nerf. Because nm's grab damage used to be a bit higher than sieg's, now its a bit lower.
 
KingAce said:
You would have to show me.

TAS B is bad example considering how difficult it is to actually step.
Lets take a move like 236B which is -20 on block. NM's 3B is i23, if you step G confirm that 236B has whiffed, I doubt you punish it on time...maybe in practice...

It's all well and good in theory, but in actuality...when you step G you have to confirm the whiff, which adds time and slows down your punishment. While with step attack you don't have those extra frames so you could punish something like a BB with 3B...and considering the fact that you get so much from 3B, It's a risk you want to take(since NM is probably fighting from behind). Also the other problem with Step G is the fact that NM was always excessively blocking so taking SG damage in the process.
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As i have said previously in my posts, its was a safer option to take if you did not know your opponent's intentions. Because you would still get the 50/50 mix-up on your opponent instead of the guarantee, or force your opponent to defend as your are on advantage. While a full step is like betting the house that your opponent would whiff; step-g was a safer bet. Smaller reward but a safer bet and a potential reward all the same.

We used full step as well when we predicted a non-tracking vertical or in a step set-up. It is obviously superior to step-g if you guessed correctly but if you played people who actively killed your step; you would be hit by CH step killers constantly and put you behind your opponent quite quickly.

With step-g, your opponent is not being rewarded as much from his slower big damage step killers and as such you will not fall behind as quickly.

And step-g was part of how Safemare in SC4 operated.

And with step-g, you can minimize the risk of stepping TAS B. With full step, though I believe you get 1A or 44B (or back throw, i cannot remember) guaranteed, if you mess up; you are going to get hit for a ton of damage. With step-g, I believe you get 3B guaranteed and will still block TAS B if you mistime the step.
 
ChaosK said:
Hmm interesting, that would explain nm's grab damage nerf. Because nm's grab damage used to be a bit higher than sieg's, now its a bit lower.
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But NM needs his throws more than almost any other character in the game so I still believe its unwarranted.

Sieg in my opinion should have his throw range buffed to SC4 standards as well. Would make him much more scarier.
 
Sieg is at least as reliant on his throws as nm is, so seeing those two chars in a vacuum, it makes sense. However seeing what other chars do, it doesn't make sense.

Imo they should have buffed siegs throw game to nm's level rather than nerfing nm's throws but who am i to judge.
 
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