Balance Patch Discussion

[lolo]

Viola was ok as she was pre patch, the damage buff is the problem, she shouldn't be getting the same damage out of a successful 6B+K setup as Asta with a charged move. She gets more damage out of her 3B with half bar than most chars with one bar, so for instance, Mitsu's 3B does about the same damage with CE as Viola's 3B with BE, and let's not talk about wake up options after that, she can attempt to reset the damage and keep pressure under minor damage sacrifice. Also, Mitsu's 3B is -16 and Viola's -14.

Viola cannot be changed much, is the way she is, but the damage buff was unnecessary, many combos and setups weren't discovered at the moment she got the buff.

But well, the game seems to be more favorable to fast chars than slow ones, for instance, for Asta is almost impossible to connect a 3B after JGing anything, and even if he gets that, he will do 42 dmg with no BE and 62 with BE... Where someone like Phyrra will get more damage, and even if she gets blocked, she will be mostly safe.

I've posted most of my changes, I just wanted to give my opinion on Viola and about Maxou's suggestion on Yoshi's CE dealing 95 dmg, make it 90 better, that's ok, but then make it i13 , and it will have to combo with any stun and launcher, and of course, it will have to RO very far... Too broke?, already exists...

Yoshi's CE is hard to land, hard to combo and easily punished, dealing 110 dmg, is the reasonable thing, he lacks of BEs, so imagine if Cervante's 6B BE wouldn't be a natural combo, or Nightmare's 4K BE... Well, that's Yoshi's 3A BE, only works on CH, 6B BE is just bad use of meter and 66A BE can be stepped or JGed easily...

Belial, good luck, I would vote for you and a committee to approve the balance changes rather than voting every change, please, contemplate this possibility rather than just voting, we could vote for this committee rather than voting for the changes, so we get the players we choose to decide, you know, like senators...

 

[IvanDR]

Viola was ok as she was pre patch, the damage buff is the problem, she shouldn't be getting the same damage out of a successful 6B+K setup as Asta with a charged move. She gets more damage out of her 3B with half bar than most chars with one bar, so for instance, Mitsu's 3B does about the same damage with CE as Viola's 3B with BE, and let's not talk about wake up options after that, she can attempt to reset the damage and keep pressure under minor damage sacrifice. Also, Mitsu's 3B is -16 and Viola's -14.

Viola cannot be changed much, is the way she is, but the damage buff was unnecessary, many combos and setups weren't discovered at the moment she got the buff.

But well, the game seems to be more favorable to fast chars than slow ones, for instance, for Asta is almost impossible to connect a 3B after JGing anything, and even if he gets that, he will do 42 dmg with no BE and 62 with BE... Where someone like Phyrra will get more damage, and even if she gets blocked, she will be mostly safe.

I've posted most of my changes, I just wanted to give my opinion on Viola and about Maxou's suggestion on Yoshi's CE dealing 95 dmg, make it 90 better, that's ok, but then make it i13 , and it will have to combo with any stun and launcher, and of course, it will have to RO very far... Too broke?, already exists...

Yoshi's CE is hard to land, hard to combo and easily punished, dealing 110 dmg, is the reasonable thing, he lacks of BEs, so imagine if Cervante's 6B BE wouldn't be a natural combo, or Nightmare's 4K BE... Well, that's Yoshi's 3A BE, only works on CH, 6B BE is just bad use of meter and 66A BE can be stepped or JGed easily...

Belial, good luck, I would vote for you and a committee to approve the balance changes rather than voting every change, please, contemplate this possibility rather than just voting, we could vote for this committee rather than voting for the changes, so we get the players we choose to decide, you know, like senators...

lolo pero lolo coñ... diste en el clavo.

 

[TerminatorCortez]

Forget about Cervy! Viola is way to powerful...I fear that the rise of another Amy is coming...

 

[ChaosK]

I like the voting idea but i have my doubts. I can see people being against buffing/or to be in favor of nerfing chars solely because it is a char they don't play, rather than actually thinking about if its good for balance.

I would like to have faith in the community on basing their decisions around being beneficial for balance but in reality i don't think this is going to happen.
Especially when we are talking about chars that are not clearly top or low, i can totally see all people voting against buffs and voting for nerfs. How do you want to address that belial?

 

[Ring]

If this happens, the character is killed. Nerf her damage potential, but this is a key setup.

She could still follow up 6B, 3A, 2A etc with other things for a lot of damage (example : 6B+K, 6B, BBB should be around 70 dmg), just not 3B into her doom combo. Don't forget a lot of 6B+K setups give her + frames on block, even if you guess right she still has the momentum, don't you think this is a bit ridiculous ?

People were complaining about Amy's 50/50 wakeup in SC4, this one is even worse because it leads to more damage and has little risk.

 

[Maxou]

If this happens, the character is killed. Nerf her damage potential, but this is a key setup.

My thought exactly.

Safe bombs : 4A+B~A cancel shouldn't allow to make safe bombs (-10 instead of -15).

 

[Synraii]

She could still follow up 6B, 3A, 2A etc with other things for a lot of damage (example : 6B+K, 6B, BBB should be around 70 dmg), just not 3B into her doom combo. Don't forget a lot of 6B+K setups give her + frames on block, even if you guess right she still has the momentum, don't you think this is a bit ridiculous ?

People were complaining about Amy's 50/50 wakeup in SC4, this one is even worse because it leads to more damage and has little risk.

No I don't: setting up 6B+K is prone to interruption as the mixup itself is actually quite slow, 6B+K 1K I'm pretty sure is not + on block and 6B+K into any mid that gives a 3B combo: Block the mid and you can interrupt between the mid and the 6B+K hit - Alpha can 33B/236Throw mixup for example, its very hard to hit confirm the mid into a true comboing 3B, which means a good on CH safe mid here is good, I'm fairly sure Ivy can block 3A, do 214B and its a safe escape here that will hurt Viola if she pushes buttons. I'm pretty sure aGI CEs and ordinary GIs are garunteed here to due to 3A, 3K, 6B recovery, meaning if Viola wants to try to escape punishment, you drain her meter, which is a big deal.

In all honesty, I think you're complaining because its a good setup for a character who *isn't* called Ivy. =P

 

[lobo]

1) Everything has pretty much been decided on what's the community wants nerfed/buffed. So if you're complaining about "Why didn't someone ask about......" Well maybe you should've done that. It's a COMMUNITY patch vote. Not a babysitter's patch vote.
2) If you have the time to run your mouth..... at least take the time to vote. Maybe then someone won't gloss over your post as anything other than sour grapes.

lobo the time for discussion is over, you had your say in "Balance Patch Discussion Thread". No more adding to the list, sorry.

on the contrary, i didn't, and neither did the majority of us. i had one post stating that the thread was a good read, which was promptly deleted. i wasn't on your list of "allowed players" to comment in depth, so i didn't waste both of our time by doing so. my main issue with this poll is that the options allowed and the changes proposed are all hand picked by you, while largely ignoring the wishes of the majority. i read all the deleted posts in that thread, and i am fully aware of the vast bulk of suggestions that were removed from it to favor your own ideas or those of a select few, whom do do not represent our community here at 8WR as a whole nor the general money-spending public.

i applaud you for the labor put into this, and for your desire to fix that which is broken. we need more pro-active members such as yourself if we wish to give the proper input to Namco for improvement through patches or future games. however, i strongly disagree with your methodology behind doing so. if anything, this should be done as individual polls in specific character arenas; where only concerned, knowledgeable or otherwise active players will vote on that which effects them.

99.999% of us (myself included) do not even know what most of these changes imply to the overall game, or what half of the moves listed even are. people are meaninglessly voting...just to vote.

TL:DR - lets try to fix the things inherently stupid for the entire cast, and stop trying to otherwise change a game that we don't even know how to play yet.

 

[lobo]

I'm honestly surprised no one suggested having step G buffed to around -15, instead of -20.

i'd like to see it at minus 12-14, so that generally 2a/aa will kill it but otherwise the game reverts to frame calculating as opposed to anticipating. then again, i'd like to see many things and that would make it play like the rest of the series and likely ruin online play much like sc4, so it will never happen.

 

[Belial]

Lobo, i havent deleted any useful post containing buff/nerf wishes.
Would you please stop trolling. Im tired of you and your petty schemes of derailing threads.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Please Lobo isnt trolling dude. He speaks the truth. You hand picked all these options and dismissed those posts that YOU seemed not worthy.

All these changes are highly biased and dont reflect the entirety of the community. Maxi has WAY more issues that what you intend to change. But when I asked to participate in the thread, I got told I wasnt a tourney player. I WASNT told NOT to participate. But you left the idea that my thoughts and ideas were probablly worthless.

Theres nothing to vote against. Its either vote for the changes made by you OR dont vote at all. Wheres the diplomatic system in that?

and like Lobo, I salute your efforts for perfecting the game. your hearts in the right place. But that horse you ride on is pretty high! Time to get off!

 

[kAb]

looking over some peoples lists it looks like this has turned into a nerf everything but my character. seriously one guy voted no to ALL of his characters changes, how can you take these kinds of posts into account when you make the final tally. this process seems like it will do more harm than good.

also on some characters there is mention of less pushback on block for certain moves, i wonder why is this necessary when said moves are already unsafe in some way to much of the cast. there are extreme examples such as pyrrah omegas DNS B, but it seems you mean to homogenize the game even further by allowing everyone to punish everything. i like the fact that you have to KNOW your correct punish for certain moves. sure a move might be -16 but that doesnt mean your i16 punisher will always reach, you may have to sacrifice some damage to connect the proper punish.

it just sounds like making things yet again easier so that all characters play the same at the very least can mash BB for unsafe things without thought.

i'll post up my changes later i suppose

 

[Zane]

CE's don't have invincibility

Yes they do, and it's absurd. This is SCV, not UMvC3.

I still think having another patch for this game would be very, very bad for the community, especially if it comes before Evo. Would it really be so bad to wait until after Evo so we have a better understanding of the game? There's plenty of tech that people are sitting on that we aren't aware of.

Completely agree.

You guys are trying to build a different game; I honestly don't understand all of the effort put forth for this giant wish list which Bamco is most likely not going to glance at.

Absolutely

Please Lobo isnt trolling dude. He speaks the truth. You hand picked all these options and dismissed those posts that YOU seemed not worthy.

All these changes are highly biased and dont reflect the entirety of the community. Maxi has WAY more issues that what you intend to change. But when I asked to participate in the thread, I got told I wasnt a tourney player. I WASNT told NOT to participate. But you left the idea that my thoughts and ideas were probablly worthless.

Theres nothing to vote against. Its either vote for the changes made by you OR dont vote at all. Wheres the diplomatic system in that?

You gotta listen to the old and wise.

my main issue with this poll is that the options allowed and the changes proposed are all hand picked by you, while largely ignoring the wishes of the majority. i read all the deleted posts in that thread, and i am fully aware of the vast bulk of suggestions that were removed from it to favor your own ideas or those of a select few, whom do do not represent our community here at 8WR as a whole nor the general money-spending public.

Can't forget this one

Looks like a massive list of nerfs to me =/ someone could explain to me what would be wrong with just buffing weaker characters so that they can compete with the established stronger characters, instead of nerfing across the board?

He's definitely right .


Now with all that, I'll throw my own opinion... after all, it's MY opinion. Why are we nerfing all characters? Decrease in damage AND increase in life gauge?... this is not only UMvC3 with the invincibility, but now it's going to turn into Dragon Ball Z game with massive life gauge and little damage. All we need is X-factor, and a 100x Kamehameha (or Hadouken, depending on which one you like better)

A wishlist from the community will not be too important and looked at with care by the company, why? because they know players will most likely vote in order to benefit THEIR character in a way it's best suited for them. What they need to do is experience the problems, bugs, glitches, and bad moves set first hand.

Why did they take out the doom combo and infinite bubbles in SCV? because they saw how ridiculous they were. Besides, I don't think a "shopping list" of moves and changes will get the attention of Namco... they are Namco. What they need is demonstrations, visual proof. And what better way to do that then to keep playing the game? EVO, MLG, and other major tournaments help a lot. This is why I agree with the people I quoted. But then again, it's MY opinion. We all have different ones.

But if anything, I vote for a patch that allows us to mute people online and to give Kilik, Elysium, and Edge Master their own weapon. Also, props to the soundtrack of Sacred Dawn, the music and the stage are fantastic.
Now then... anyone up for Zwei mirrors?

 

[Belial]

Please Lobo isnt trolling dude. He speaks the truth. You hand picked all these options and dismissed those posts that YOU seemed not worthy.

All these changes are highly biased and dont reflect the entirety of the community. Maxi has WAY more issues that what you intend to change. But when I asked to participate in the thread, I got told I wasnt a tourney player. I WASNT told NOT to participate. But you left the idea that my thoughts and ideas were probablly worthless.

Theres nothing to vote against. Its either vote for the changes made by you OR dont vote at all. Wheres the diplomatic system in that?

and like Lobo, I salute your efforts for perfecting the game. your hearts in the right place. But that horse you ride on is pretty high! Time to get off!

This is all nonsense. If you cared more about the game then which part of the list you're in YOUR VOICE WOULD BE IN THIS THREAD.

EVERYONE could speak their mind. I TRIED AS HARD AS I CAN to include everyone's opinions.
some wishes were "BRING BACK MOVE X FROM SOUL BLADE ITS TEH COOL". How am I supposed to implement this? I've tried to generalize as much as I can but list is still way too long. Should I put all wishes here, like I indended that would exceed 200 points.

I didnt hand pick shit. All I did is try to organize your good-for-nothing self-indulgent pile of offtopic into something constructive. Chatting with dozens of people and talking sense to them.
Yet you never even made a post back on this thread, but you're ever so-caring on others behalf, are you? Maybe let other speak for themselves. I went through dozens of PM conversation with ppl whose messages were deleted and many of them were extremely offencive, yet I calmly explained to them all why. B/c I realized they have right to be angry. You sir have no such right.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

This is all nonsense. If you cared more about the game then which part of the list you're in YOUR VOICE WOULD BE IN THIS THREAD.

EVERYONE could speak their mind. I TRIED AS HARD AS I CAN to include everyone's opinions.
some wishes were "BRING BACK MOVE X FROM SOUL BLADE ITS TEH COOL". How am I supposed to implement this? I've tried to generalize as much as I can but list is still way too long. Should I put all wishes here, like I indended that would exceed 200 points.

I didnt hand pick shit. All I did is try to organize your good-for-nothing self-indulgent pile of offtopic into something constructive. Chatting with dozens of people and talking sense to them.
Yet you never even made a post back on this thread, but you're ever so-caring on others behalf, are you? Maybe let other speak for themselves. I went through dozens of PM conversation with ppl whose messages were deleted and many of them were extremely offencive, yet I calmly explained to them all why. B/c I realized they have right to be angry. You sir have no such right.

I have no fuckin right? REALLY?? I sent you a PM asking for your holy permission to be included on the list of people that YOU deemed worthy enough to speak thier mind. your response:

Im not aware of your tournement standings so I dont know how much of a role you will play in it.

I then explained to you that I am the maxi mod. My postings would be a compilation of the higher up tourney level maxi players and not so much my own.

But you didnt respond nor seem to care.

SO THERES MY RIGHT TO BE PISSED!

I looked up to you as a well respected member of this community and you could do no wrong in my eyes. Things have changed since thin since I know that you dont give a shit about the little guys. You just want this game built around you.

Well you can have your little game. Im out!!

 

[WARUI_NE]

I was the only person to even mention buffing aeon and my post was ignored.
That's not the problem though most of these changes are awful. Nerfing characters into oblivion just makes for shittacular lame ass characters like sf4.

As fo actual changes remove jg ;-)


Lol @ hating on 5-8 frames of invun on CEs. Learn to meaty on oki.

 

[SBA]

I've tried to generalize as much as I can but list is still way too long. Should I put all wishes here, like I indended that would exceed 200 points.

You souldn't have that many points. It's like your trying to build an entirely different game. I'm sure that is NOT what the community is asking for.

 

[Echo01]

Do people really hate the high damage in this game that much? I personally think it makes for more entertaining game to spectate. I can sit down and watch ST at any time and goggle/lmao at how much damage hits/throws do in that game. Suggesting damage nerfs as well as increasing life values is going to make for a slow/dull game in the long run, and certain characters like no-damage-Leixia will just be screwed.

 

[Wandrian]

Focus on things that are just complete and total bullshit? Sounds good to me. If we're opening the thread up to discussion, why not actually discuss it?


Alpha Patroklos: JFT I feel should not hit grounded. It's already a superb move and even without the ability to hit grounded it can still do very much. It's just too good.

Hilde: C2B G infinite...No thank you. I'm not sure though, what's a way to kill the infinite without any otherwise detrimental effects on Hilde?

Mitsurugi: Yeah, 4B. I believe a reduction in its tracking would be enough.

Siegfried: Remove pushback from 2K on hit.

Tira: Make the CE not whiff. Idea A: turn it into an attack throw. Idea B: add tracking to all but the first and final hits, with a little bit of pull to the launching hits and slightly more pushback from the final hit.

Viola: SET back throw infinite...How about a brief movement freeze after performing the attack? I think this would allow Viola pretty much all options she currently has after performing it except performing it again before the foe could turn around. Or am I missing something?

 

[Belial]

I have no fuckin right? REALLY?? I sent you a PM asking for your holy permission to be included on the list of people that YOU deemed worthy enough to speak thier mind. your response:

Im not aware of your tournement standings so I dont know how much of a role you will play in it.

I then explained to you that I am the maxi mod. My postings would be a compilation of the higher up tourney level maxi players and not so much my own.

But you didnt respond nor seem to care.

Here is our complete and total PM history:
HRD:

Belial,

Just yesterday I started a thread in the Maxi SA about this very thing and have had a few great respnses. Id like to chime in on your thread if you dont mind.

I would compile a bigger list and submit it when I have a hefty list of changes for maxi balanceing

Hope its ok

HRD

Myself:

hey

Im somewhat unfamiliar w you and your tournament placings. If there is none: Is there someone whos on the list already who can relate to you?

HRD:

Im not a tourney player. I entered one tourny. Came in last place when SC4 came out. Im just the Maxi mod. I dont really put in a ton of input but I take input from the people in my SA. People like Hotnikklez, spydermaxi, maxi-mum, Barry, people like that.

So what I would post up is not necisarily my personal contributions, I act as a representative of all the top notch maxi players. a spokes person if you will. But if you dont want our 2 cents from the maxi guys. So be it!

Myself:

You are free to post in the topic as long as you cope with the rules. Its open for everyones suggestions.