Matchup Discussion: Leixia VS. Natsu

[FallenAngelII]

In theory, yes, but in practice Natsu's i10 A has very short range, meaning you can escape punishment with good spacing.

Except Leixia's safest moves have next to no pushback and/or pushes her into her opponents' faces (FC3B). 66K has a tiny hitbox, so it's impossible to space, FC3B pushes you into your opponent's faces with relatively little pushback and 3A+B pushes you into your opponents' faces.

She can't really space those moves.

 

[MntT77]

Except Leixia's safest moves have next to no pushback and/or pushes her into her opponents' faces (FC3B). 66K has a tiny hitbox, so it's impossible to space, FC3B pushes you into your opponent's faces with relatively little pushback and 3A+B pushes you into your opponents' faces.

She can't really space those moves.

With 3A+B you end up in FC, so AA won't hit regardless of range. The other three are still safe at max range.

That said, the matchup is still definitely in Natsu's favour, because Natsu has most of what Leixia has, only with better oki and lots more damage.

 

[FallenAngelII]

With 3A+B you end up in FC, so AA won't hit regardless of range. The other three are still safe at max range.

I will concede that one move.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Yeah... Leixia's terrible... she can't win any matchups at all unless the character is Raph... Gotcha.
Come on patch 1.04...

 

[ShinjiUrahara]

I'm afraid kAb is right... I played a lot of matches vs him offline Leixia vs Natsu and he won way more. He took away A LOT of Leixia hey attacks by punishing with 6:A and AA. I was forced to change my play style entirely. Leixia vs Natsu is very bad match up for Leixia because of the same reason Leixia vs Cervy is a bad match up for him.

ZeroEffects unless you can provide some logical reasons why, its in the bag for Natsu.

 

[Kalas]

With 3A+B you end up in FC, so AA won't hit regardless of range.

I was referring to A:6 as well, which will very much hit.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

I was referring to A:6 as well, which will very much hit.

No it won't dude, the High A comes out in 10f but the mids don't come out for 14 or 15 or whatever (same as normal A6), so you'll be able to block it.

 

[AKNova7]

Lol, let's be real man, there aint nothing I could say that would change anyone's mind. Also, I never said the match was in Leixia's favor. Just that it's a more comfortable fight than Astaroth.
And not every matchup is decided by punishment.

And now you spelled my name wrong. (reference to the other thread)

For what it's worth, I believe she has a good matchup vs Natsu, you just have to use all her moves and stop trying to play every character the same. The only bad match-ups Leixia has is ones where she is getting severely out-damaged. Which happens a lot, but at times like facing Natsu, it's avoidable. Versus Natsu, the biggest things you have to fear are 8K, and CH WR K/CH 4B. Other than that, keep solid defense, and remember if you're on the ground and see 4A+B or Unblockable, don't get up, but tech roll afterward.

 

[FallenAngelII]

For what it's worth, I believe she has a good matchup vs Natsu, you just have to use all her moves and stop trying to play every character the same. The only bad match-ups Leixia has is ones where she is getting severely out-damaged. Which happens a lot, but at times like facing Natsu, it's avoidable. Versus Natsu, the biggest things you have to fear are 8K, and CH WR K/CH 4B. Other than that, keep solid defense, and remember if you're on the ground and see 4A+B or Unblockable, don't get up, but tech roll afterward.

And what exactly can Leixia use against Natsu? Leixia's combo starters and damagers are all Mid (except Quakestun, but I poo poo that move as a legit combo starter). Every single one of Leixia's lows is unsafe as heck on block, give no advantage on hit and/or are really slow (i.e. telegraphic).

If you turn it into a slug match of attrition, Natsu wins, hands-down. If you turn it into a reckless game of guessing, Natsu still wins hands-down because if Leixia guesses wrong thrice, she's dead. Natsu can still stand after guessing wrong 7 times as long as none of those wrong guesses was a mid (i.e. "Who the frack cares? Just keep blocking mid").

There is absolutely no way I can see Leixia having the advantage in that match-up. She can't even properly punish the bombs. If she blocks the blue one, she'll lag too much to retaliate with anything more damaging than 6KK. If she jumps it, that's even less damage (with any given aerial). If Leixia empty hops either bomb, she'll lag too much to punish Natsu for very much damage.

In other words, Natsu can throw out reckless bombs. It's not like she's got a lot to fear in retaliation unless Leixia predicts them and 3Bs a bomb on prediction.

How in the world would one of the best punishers in the game not be a bad match-up against a character who relies on being safe (but whose safeness goes out the window against Natsu)?

 

[MntT77]

And what exactly can Leixia use against Natsu? Leixia's combo starters and damagers are all Mid (except Quakestun, but I poo poo that move as a legit combo starter). Every single one of Leixia's lows is unsafe as heck on block, give no advantage on hit and/or are really slow (i.e. telegraphic).

Most of your post is accurate, but seriously, how many lows are there in the game that aren't at least one of those three things?

 

[ZeroEffect317]

How in the world would one of the best punishers in the game not be a bad match-up against a character who relies on being safe (but whose safeness goes out the window against Natsu)?

How can any character rely on being safe? Safety =/= unbeatable.

The answer to this question though is in the poke game and spacing. If a character can dominate the mid range area AND outdamage Leixia, the general rule is that the matchup should be like a 7:3 against her. Natsu has the damage, but most of it in close. 66B is amazing, no doubt, but that can't be all she uses.

- Quickstep 4A is pretty decent here since her better stepkillers are highs and 66B gets evaded. (it TCs on frame 1)
- 6KK punishes a good bit of her stuff. Some characters can't reach her if she does 66AB, but Lex can. 44B is pretty good against her too, especially if the Natsu tries to setup iWS K and lots of PO nonsense.
- Crybaby vs bomb oki. (No dumb stuff about Natsu "spacing her bombs". She ain't got that kind of time for tech traps)

Natsu can JG A:6 punish WS B (BE), Leixia can JG 3B punish AAB. But then JG shouldn't be a factor in a matchup anyways, anyone can JG.

The only saving grace Natsu has IS her damage. If Natsu's throws weren't both above 50 dmg a piece (and seriously, WTF with that?), and 66B wasn't the same damage as Leixia BnB combos, she wouldn't be able to beat her, even with A:6

 

[ZeroEffect317]

If you turn it into a slug match of attrition, Natsu wins, hands-down. If you turn it into a reckless game of guessing, Natsu still wins hands-down because if Leixia guesses wrong thrice, she's dead. Natsu can still stand after guessing wrong 7 times as long as none of those wrong guesses was a mid (i.e. "Who the frack cares? Just keep blocking mid").

This can be said about any matchup vs Leixia. She always loses a war of attrition because her damage is the weakest in the game.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Most of your post is accurate, but seriously, how many lows are there in the game that aren't at least one of those three things?

It's just that Leixia's lack of good lows is a huge disadvantage against Natsu, more so than against most others. Because against most others, Leixia at least still has safety with her mids. Not so much against Natsu. Natsu is close to being a natural counter to Leixia because Leixia's only saving grace is her safety. Take it away and you have a whole lot of flaws with very few strengths left.

How can any character rely on being safe? Safety =/= unbeatable.

Reverse mix-ups, (sub-par) mix-ups, pokes, pressure, guard break. "Relies" on might've been the wrong word to use, though. "Whose safeness is one of her few strengths" would've been the right way to put it.

- Quickstep 4A is pretty decent here since her better stepkillers are highs and 66B gets evaded. (it TCs on frame 1)

You talk like that's gonna keep working again and again.

- 6KK punishes a good bit of her stuff. Some characters can't reach her if she does 66AB, but Lex can. 44B is pretty good against her too, especially if the Natsu tries to setup iWS K and lots of PO nonsense.

And Natsu punishes the vast majority of Leixia's moves with a variety of moves. And?

- Crybaby vs bomb oki. (No dumb stuff about Natsu "spacing her bombs". She ain't got that kind of time for tech traps)

Yes, and? Tiny damage. If she does that slow low instead, it'll go through crybaby's lag.

The only saving grace Natsu has IS her damage. If Natsu's throws weren't both above 50 dmg a piece (and seriously, WTF with that?), and 66B wasn't the same damage as Leixia BnB combos, she wouldn't be able to beat her, even with A:6

The only Leixia is better at Natsu is range. Natsu's better than Leixia at pretty much everything else, IMO.

This can be said about any matchup vs Leixia. She always loses a war of attrition because her damage is the weakest in the game.

Yes, but Natsu wins over Leixia in any kind of a match. The point is that Leixia's at a disadvantage here.

 

[AKNova7]

Snip

Natsu, while on paper being better than Leixia, isn't in the actual game. Natsu may wildly throw bombs, but a 9K and advantage Mix-Up will stop that before two long without a doubt. It's all about baits and playing the reaction game, and while this would seem like a bad match-up, it's not, because while Natsu out-damages her, she's generally one of the easier to block characters in the game outside of laggy jump unblockable ninja bomb Oki. In this match, 3B+K will likely be your friend to set up Natsu's to have to make a decision, and to get them to the range you want them to be at. A mid-range Natsu is likely easier to deal with. I personally have not had any Natsu problems once I started 8King bombs on all occasions. I'll give Natsu an advantage on the match-up, but it wouldn't be by too much, because while she doesn't give you the tools to beat her, she does give you the tools to keep yourself safe.

Also, if you find someone is trying to A:6 you after a -10 move that TC's (which, would be a horrible idea agianst Leixia), punish them with 4A+B. This match-up is based on correct reads. And on most occasions, even with correct reads, the only way Natsu is going to directly beat Leixia is guard burst damage. It requires patience, and a tedious playstyle, but the match-up is very winnable with discipline.

 

[FallenAngelII]

I never argued that the disadvantage to Leixia is large, just that it exist. Natsu is a natural counter to Leixia's playstyle, however. She has to limit her moveset severely against Natsu.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

You talk like that's gonna keep working again and again.

...really? if you're playing a good player... nothing should keep working "again and again". hopefully someone knows how to adapt.

 

[FallenAngelII]

...really? if you're playing a good player... nothing should keep working "again and again". hopefully someone knows how to adapt.

Which was kinda my point. Using that as an argument is like saying Natsu can WR K your ass if your do Highs. It's not much of an argument.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Which was kinda my point. Using that as an argument is like saying Natsu can WR K your ass if your do Highs. It's not much of an argument.

Ok, but you can't be that technical if you want to break down a matchup. Otherwise there's no point to it at all. There's always a counter to everything if the player adapts. That's exactly why stuff like that should be left out of this discussion.

I mean I could just as easily say "So what if 66K is -10. You talk like it'll be blocked again and again".

In Natsu's case, 66B is THE go-to safe mid she has for fighting from mid range. so if you have a tool that will work against that, while also shutting down her 6A/66A and throw mixups, even if it only works half the time, isn't it worth mentioning?

 

[AKNova7]

I never argued that the disadvantage to Leixia is large, just that it exist. Natsu is a natural counter to Leixia's playstyle, however. She has to limit her moveset severely against Natsu.

That would be a problem, except Leixia has one of the most viable movelist in the game. She has many, many, many moves that fill a niche and are good moves under the right conditions.

 

[FallenAngelII]

In Natsu's case, 66B is THE go-to safe mid she has for fighting from mid range. so if you have a tool that will work against that, while also shutting down her 6A/66A and throw mixups, even if it only works half the time, isn't it worth mentioning?

I never said it wasn't worth mentioning. But you claim Leixia has the advantage in this match-up. Naming such minor things doesn't really prove your point. It proves the match-up isn't one-sided, but that wasn't your argument.