Discussion about Just Guard

[jtdam09]

[notice]Sorry to hijack the first post. I just moved all the JG discussion from the other thread in here.

-Wombat, the creator of this thread[/notice]

I had no idea that people had mixed feelings towards JG. I thought it was a good additon. I love the satisfaction of landing one. Especially on an unblockable. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.

That's one benefit.

I don't see how JG frame traps is bad either.

 

[Mage]

This thread is so embarrassing.

 

[Eli123s]

JG is a good mechanism and it should not be removed.

First off so many things changed in SC5, with the introduction of CE and BE, GI using meter and GI high/mid/low, Step G and Backdash G removed.

To me logic behind JG was a way to balance these things so things don't become so powerful. Image if they only way to deal with Ivy 1B BE was to GI. So if you did't have meter its free damage for her. What if they made GI meter less, well they did that in SC4 and through out that life spam we didn't see much GI anyway.

JG stops SC ping pong, when I attack you block, now you attack I block etc. It add a new layer of depth cause now if you know you opponent like to do option select JG you mix it up with a throw or low, when you teach them to stop doing option select JG you can begin the mind games

Its true that JG does benefit character that have good punishment options, like Alpha JG and double twister. So maybe a reduction of damage.


Really the only think that needs to be fix for Just Guard is:
1) JG tech trap. This seem like a glitch. Regardless if this is hard to do, it does not seem intention design.
2) GI JG, this makes it possible to escaped from certain CE, when normally it should not be possible.
3) Voila can JG when the opponent GI the orb (not to sure if that still in the game)

 

[Doomgucci]

JG stops SC ping pong, when I attack you block, now you attack I block etc. It add a new layer of depth.

GI's served for that in SCIV, to stop that "Ping-Pong" and add some kind of "fresh air" to the battle

 

[garjian]

I didn't include the obviously stupid stuff like nerf Seigfried or remove JG.

Really?
Way to state your opinion as a fact there. You don't agree with the proposed change, so you stuff the debate altogether and call it stupid. There's clearly divided opinions on this topic, and good points either side. It's a debate that needs to be had and it's certainly not to be just tossed aside as some stupid, ill-thought-out point of view to be compared with "NERF SIGFRIEND!" and:

Also, I want a "banning draft" mode. Where each player can "ban" 3 characters from being picked before character selection.

 

[Mage]

JG may have some problems with it which need revising, but it should definitely NOT be removed - it adds more thinking about which of your characters' moves are JGable and which are not.

 

[UnseenWombat]

Really?
Way to state your opinion as a fact there. You don't agree with the proposed change, so you stuff the debate altogether and call it stupid. There's clearly divided opinions on this topic, and good points either side. It's a debate that needs to be had and it's certainly not to be just tossed aside as some stupid, ill-thought-out point of view to be compared with "NERF SIGFRIEND!" and:

If Idle and Partisan say it's stupid, it's stupid. This is a meritocracy, where the weight of your opinion is based on your success at the game. If Xeph or Omega or somebody on that level comes in here and says it needs removed, I'll reconsider.

 

[garjian]

If Idle and Partisan say it's stupid, it's stupid. This is a meritocracy, where the weight of your opinion is based on your success at the game. If Xeph or Omega or somebody on that level comes in here and says it needs removed, I'll reconsider.

Interesting.
So it does not matter what evidence I provide,
It does not matter what point I make and how irrefutable it is or isn't,
All that matters is whether or not I beat some other people on the East Coast of America?

So in theory, if i went to a tournament and beat every one of these people (and no-one is saying it would happen of course) I'd be free to make statements such as:

Ranked Match should only allow Cervantes and CaS Nightmares to participate, and only allow the selection of Unknown Forest as a stage.
Global Colluseo should soft-ban a different character ever 7 hours, by permanently banning anybody that breaches the rule.
All Mids should become S.Mids, unless they come from directly above you.

And that would be considered inarguable fact?
So all that matters is your offline tournament record, and absolutely none of what you're saying makes a difference?
And this is of course, regardless of anybody's situation. I can't get to tournaments to become one of your Elite Rulers... and yet, I have informed opinions and extensive knowledge of this game, and just as much ability to research and learn elements of it.
In that case, why have message boards at all..? Why not just replace them with this section entirely, and restrict status updates to the top 10, allowing only them to preach just how and what this game should and could be?
Because if you're not even going to consider what anybody else has to say, regardless of evidence and not even considering the validity of their opinion then why bother allowing anybody to even have an opinion?

Now having looked at that sticky after writing what I did earlier, I can see why you might leave it out because it's something people are disagreeing on... and as a locked list, there could be no discussion there, and as its not resolved it can't be on that definitive list. I get that.
But to say that this opinion is "stupid", to compare it to "nerf seigfried", and to say that the opinions and statements of anybody who can't travel miles across the globe to prove to you in person their knowledge and ability are inherently invalid is completely unacceptable.

If you want to call the idea of removing JG stupid, address the concerns me and others have raised, and don't just shoot them down without reason or explanation. I'd like to know exactly how I am wrong, and have the opportunity to counter that if possible.
I can already concede that it's not necessarily JG that is the problem with one of my issues, and more with Astaroth's move list itself not being well suited to this game as it features it. Other characters have valuable mixups when JG is the opponent's choice of defense, but he doesn't, and I would say that he needs redesigning more so than JG.
I haven't had the opportunity as of yet to look into every-character vs. JG in depth, but a quick look at various multi-hit attacks and slow charging attacks has shown me that outside of Astaroth, there's very little that isn't otherwise avoidable or doesn't have any ability to delay the hit, or isn't already punishable anyway. But what it does to Astaroth is unfair, and any tricks with unblockables have been made completely redundant...
The lack of risk in general however, is a problem. The only thing you lose for attempting is the inability to do it for a short time, and if it's used without the intention of it working every time anyway, such as using it as soon as you see the opponent flinch on reaction, you risk nothing... You would have guarded otherwise anyway, and you're still able to do so. Throws can still be broken and ducking is still instant.

Now I'm just repeating myself, but if you can't tell me why I'm wrong I'm not going to believe I am. Right now I just see petty elitism.

 

[Party Wolf]

snip.

This is a forum, you have no rights

 

[Donutman]

If Idle and Partisan say it's stupid, it's stupid. This is a meritocracy, where the weight of your opinion is based on your success at the game. If Xeph or Omega or somebody on that level comes in here and says it needs removed, I'll reconsider.

What? Just how the fuck does being good at a game change if something was stupid or not? Just because you are good at something does not mean you are always right. If I all of sudden became the number 1 soul calibur player in the universe and became unbeatable, should everything I say become right? If i became that good then would you believe me if I said "the sky is not blue, it is red." or if I said "ZWEI is OP nerf him please" would that make what I say right because I'm good? No, it wouldnt, as both statements would be fucking stupid, regardless of who says it and how good they are at a video game a stupid thing is still stupid

 

[garjian]

This is a forum, you have no rights

I didn't ask for rights.
I provided a choice... Prove me wrong, and I'm wrong... Don't, and I don't see how I'm wrong. Simple.

 

[Mage]

What? Just how the fuck does being good at a game change if something was stupid or not? Just because you are good at something does not mean you are always right. If I all of sudden became the number 1 soul calibur player in the universe and became unbeatable, should everything I say become right? If i became that good then would you believe me if I said "the sky is not blue, it is red." or if I said "ZWEI is OP nerf him please" would that make what I say right because I'm good? No, it wouldnt, as both statements would be fucking stupid, regardless of who says it and how good they are at a video game a stupid thing is still stupid

Too many "If"s in that, all of which are not going to become true anytime soon.

 

[Donutman]

Too many "If"s in that, all of which are not going to become true anytime soon.

. <---- this is a point. Its something very important in many posts. You sir seem to be missing it.

 

[Mage]

. <---- this is a point. Its something very important in many posts. You sir seem to be missing it.

The point is your argument is invalid. It is completely true that most people place their opinion based of their ability at the game. If you can't JG; "OMFGDGSDFNDFGVFNDSX REMOVE JG ITS FER NUBZ".

If you can't ... I don't know, something hard; "OMFGSFGDSHXDHFN REMOVE ___ CUZ ITS POINTLESS"

Why are you against JG so much?

 

[garjian]

So I keep setting up frame traps and they keep JGing out of them? I like it when this happens - it means there's a situation in which I know my opponent will stand there on the defensive, so what better time to go for a throw mixup?

Something I need to add here is that that throw mixup would work if the opponent guarded normally, and if they used G[G]. G[G] does not stop you ducking or escaping throws, so that is a risk of guarding in general and not a risk of JG.

The point is your argument is invalid. It is completely true that most people place their opinion based of their ability at the game. If you can't JG; "OMFGDGSDFNDFGVFNDSX REMOVE JG ITS FER NUBZ".

If you can't ... I don't know, something hard; "OMFGSFGDSHXDHFN REMOVE ___ CUZ ITS POINTLESS"

Why are you against JG so much?

At what point did anyone say JG is bad because its too difficult.
Its bad because it breaks natural combos, it makes just about every attack in the game punishable, can be done at any time and carries absolutely no risk. It results in a guaranteed hit, and your opponent can not retaliate in any way. It makes slow attacks that are either unblockable or would cause frametraps completely redundant, often making them punishable. JG is simple to do once you learn it and particularly easy to perform against strings of attacks, such as the constant example of Astaroth's B6B, and slow charging attacks, such as his 44[A].
Astaroth is destroyed by very easy JGing.

Read the posts. Don't assume what were saying and skip over it.
If somebody doesn't like JG, it must be because they don't know how to do it...
It clearly cannot be because once they learnt how to do it, they sat in training mode for hours learning just how much it breaks the game, and how it breaks (-what I thought was-) a fundamental thing about this game... that nothing results in guaranteed damage. GI could always be Gied back... even JI could be JIed back. There was never a guaranteed anything, unless you defended/avoided correctly... reading when your opponent would go for something punishable for a damage payoff, stepping a vertical, ducking a throw, etc. JG, being risk free and having such a huge payoff completely ruins that... and as I say, why would you not just double-tap G every time you guard, just in case you can punish somebody's wise and otherwise safe decision to BB? ...You don't need to worry about the risks of stepping and you get just as good a reward. You can still duck any grabs or lows just as easily, so why not?

 

[Party Wolf]

Debate and discuss everything you want about just gaurds here. Keep the debates clean so that we can be civil.

 

[Twiz]

This should be entertaining.

 

[JDub]

I thought I'd hate it at first. I don't mind it at all. Could give a little more reward for the risk but maybe that's just my slowness to react on a successful one. *JGs, stares in amazement, gets punished.*

 

[Jimbonator]

Is...this some...d-discussion about...a game mech-*cough*anic?

 

[Pyrrus]

I spent hours going through every character's movelist trying to figure out what would be simple to JG -_-

I dont want my work to for naught D;

Also I think it's pretty useful~Especially with people use alot of BE's or use the same strings~ ( Ex: Xiba's AAK or Cervy's BBB)