Poking...

DrakeAldan

DrakeAldan

Follow the rules!
Recently I've been experimenting with Amy's BB- a move that I never used to use before. I have a somewhat basic knowledge of frame advantage and safety, but I don't think anyone's spelled it out to me before.

I'm not sure when exactly I should use it- sometimes I get lucky and hit crouching opponents with it, but sometimes I accidentally use BB instead of punishing with 6BB.

anyway- from the low damage you get off of landing a BB, it seems to me that this isn't the main thing you use to hurt the other guy, obviously... so what is it for, specifically? you hit someone with it and you open them up? you test the waters with it (and it gets blocked) to see what the opponent will do in return?

the same with 2A, nobody ever taught me how to use an s-low-
and I now know that I can interrupt with it, but I don't know when it's appropriate to use.

I guess I'm looking for... some sort of basic philosophy, instead of just learning basics as in notation, if that makes any sense at all.
 
Pokes are low risks attacks. Pretty much this means you can throw them out without having to commit to significant disadvantage if the move gets blocked. When you don't have any idea what the opponent is going to do, and you know you won't whiff, a poke pretty much forces the enemy to respond to you without a significant advantage. Even when they block them, you have momentarily frozen them in a single location, allowing you to focus on a much more limited scenario.

So you could say poking is about forcing the game to become manageable in your favor. If you hit, you have frame advantage, so your mix-ups are less prone to be interrupted. This ultimately comes down to making an opening so that its easier to do your more damaging attacks. The small amount of damage from the hit itself adds up as well, and clearly in situations with where the enemy is low on health, the damage becomes significant and the risk of dying to a poke clearly causes the opponent to play differently (assuming he knows that you know that a poke is fine too). If they block, you can make a more educated guess on how the enemy might respond and play accordingly.

Furthermore, moves like BB or 2A are moves that can often hit even when you are at disadvantage when you know the opponent will do something slow or high for example. When the game is neutral, if you throw out a BB or 2A at the same time as the opponent, the chances of your attack beating out theirs are much higher because the attack is faster than a lot of non pokes. I would say the key to winning fighting games is hitting the opponent, and not getting hit. Interrupting their attacks fulfills both of these purposes. Landing a poke immediately puts the game in your favor which is a pretty good reward for something you throw out sort of randomly because of a lack of information on what the opponent will do.

So to sum it up, poking is about creating openings offensively (as opposed to blocking), locking down, and interrupting. It limits the opponents ability to do whatever he wants, while allowing you to better do what you want to do.
 
... Thank you. That was great.

I cannot understand why I couldn't find an explanation of this anywhere else- but thank you.
 
Pokes such as BB,AA,2K,2A are meant to stuff retaliations when you are at advantage.

Alternatively, you could choose to whiff punish to deal with retaliations when you are at advantage.

These should discourage the opponent from retaliating from disadvantage, and choose to commit to guarding and waiting.

When they choose to commit and guard, play a 50/50 / two choice/ nitaku. This means mixing up between mid/low or mid/throw. This is where, imo, the chunk of the damage comes. In the case of amy, she can mixup between 3BA,33B,66:B and 2B+K/throw.

So its generally like this (using amy as an example)

Advantage-------> Expected retaliation ----------> Interrupt with a poke or bait it to whiff and launch with 33B.

or

Advantage--------> Expect the opponent to not retaliate, and commit to guarding ------> Play a two choice.

And if you flip it around,
When at disadvantage,

If you expect a big 50/50 to come about, retaliations would work... like fast AAs, 2As.. or even slower moves with evasive properties.

If you think a poke is coming, guard...

its a simplification. I hope it helps though.
 
I see... yes, sometimes I have trouble fighting opponents who never seem to block, or if they do block don't block for long.

I do remember BB being successful against an Asta player who I won't name, who at times would pepper me with Bull Rushes and attacks from disadvantage...

Yeah, it helps a lot, thank you.

Impending_Doom66 said:
I say we remove that little skank from the game and forget about her
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Aw, man, why you gotta be like that...
 
Cass has a great poke too you know :P

:6::B: ftw :o

As far as poking is concerned, I do it from time to time with Cass when most of my other stuff doesn't work. I'll throw in a quick :6::B: or just go for :A::A: since it will override a lot of moves through frame advantage.

I didn't realize how fast the command was until I tested it against multiple characters and the chances of it succeeding and hitting before your opponent hits you are about 80% or a little higher, I'd say (this is only in terms of close range attacks, so please spare me the "not against Asty's low" :P)

It's just a part of mixing your game up, man. Sometimes you gotta throw out some basic stuff to lure your opponent into your more powerful attack. You get them thinking in a particular pattern where they think they have you, then you pull out that 6-hit AND get the counter on them for additional damage, because you've thrown them off with your poking.

I can't tell you how many times I've thrown someone off by a simple :1::A:, :2::K:, :A::A:, or :B::B:. You work a quick poke tactic into your game and they will start trying to anticipate that move, so when they think you are going for it again, instead..you go for something else..or...if you're anything like me and have already used :A::A: a few times already, you could just stop after the first swing, then go in for a throw instead, because chances are..they will still be guarding after the first, expecting the second :A: to come.

I don't focus my whole game around poking, but it certainly does help. Just because you get better at the game doesn't mean you should just ditch the basics. It's nice if I can finish someone off with a :3::3::B: -> :A::+::B: -> :4::B::B:::A: combo, but I won't hesitate to use :6::B: or :A::A: instead, lol. I've been saved by the most basic of moves from time to time, so yes..they aren't meant for damage, but..even so..they can save you in your times of need.

Hope this helps.
 
iKotomi said:
Pokes are low risks attacks. Pretty much this means you can throw them out without having to commit to significant disadvantage if the move gets blocked. When you don't have any idea what the opponent is going to do, and you know you won't whiff, a poke pretty much forces the enemy to respond to you without a significant advantage. Even when they block them, you have momentarily frozen them in a single location, allowing you to focus on a much more limited scenario.

So you could say poking is about forcing the game to become manageable in your favor. If you hit, you have frame advantage, so your mix-ups are less prone to be interrupted. This ultimately comes down to making an opening so that its easier to do your more damaging attacks. The small amount of damage from the hit itself adds up as well, and clearly in situations with where the enemy is low on health, the damage becomes significant and the risk of dying to a poke clearly causes the opponent to play differently (assuming he knows that you know that a poke is fine too). If they block, you can make a more educated guess on how the enemy might respond and play accordingly.

Furthermore, moves like BB or 2A are moves that can often hit even when you are at disadvantage when you know the opponent will do something slow or high for example. When the game is neutral, if you throw out a BB or 2A at the same time as the opponent, the chances of your attack beating out theirs are much higher because the attack is faster than a lot of non pokes. I would say the key to winning fighting games is hitting the opponent, and not getting hit. Interrupting their attacks fulfills both of these purposes. Landing a poke immediately puts the game in your favor which is a pretty good reward for something you throw out sort of randomly because of a lack of information on what the opponent will do.

So to sum it up, poking is about creating openings offensively (as opposed to blocking), locking down, and interrupting. It limits the opponents ability to do whatever he wants, while allowing you to better do what you want to do.
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Great post. One thing to be aware of, is that frame advantage/disadvantage off similar pokes for each character is not always universal. The more info you know about how much of an advantage/disadvantage you are off moves like these on both hit AND block, the more quickly you can choose your options and responses to a given situation.
 
TetsuyaHikari said:
Cass has a great poke too you know :P

:6::B: ftw :o

As far as poking is concerned, I do it from time to time with Cass when most of my other stuff doesn't work. I'll throw in a quick :6::B: or just go for :A::A: since it will override a lot of moves through frame advantage.

I didn't realize how fast the command was until I tested it against multiple characters and the chances of it succeeding and hitting before your opponent hits you are about 80% or a little higher, I'd say (this is only in terms of close range attacks, so please spare me the "not against Asty's low" :P)

It's just a part of mixing your game up, man. Sometimes you gotta throw out some basic stuff to lure your opponent into your more powerful attack. You get them thinking in a particular pattern where they think they have you, then you pull out that 6-hit AND get the counter on them for additional damage, because you've thrown them off with your poking.

I can't tell you how many times I've thrown someone off by a simple :1::A:, :2::K:, :A::A:, or :B::B:. You work a quick poke tactic into your game and they will start trying to anticipate that move, so when they think you are going for it again, instead..you go for something else..or...if you're anything like me and have already used :A::A: a few times already, you could just stop after the first swing, then go in for a throw instead, because chances are..they will still be guarding after the first, expecting the second :A: to come.

I don't focus my whole game around poking, but it certainly does help. Just because you get better at the game doesn't mean you should just ditch the basics. It's nice if I can finish someone off with a :3::3::B: -> :A::+::B: -> :4::B::B:::A: combo, but I won't hesitate to use :6::B: or :A::A: instead, lol. I've been saved by the most basic of moves from time to time, so yes..they aren't meant for damage, but..even so..they can save you in your times of need.

Hope this helps.
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I usually go for for 236A:B after A+B in the above combo. Its easier to pull off and the opponent will usually air control out of the B far enough to put your back to them. Then I B+K like crazy. For some odd reason alot of people fall for that. Also I find B:K much more effective than B:B because it's 0 frames on block so throw out an A:A after and most people eat it.
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
I usually go for for 236A:B after A+B in the above combo. Its easier to pull off and the opponent will usually air control out of the B far enough to put your back to them. Then I B+K like crazy. For some odd reason alot of people fall for that. Also I find B:K much more effective than B:B because it's 0 frames on block so throw out an A:A after and most people eat it.
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Pfft. Of course you take the easy route :/

You can have your :2::3::6::A::B: :P

I find :4::B::B:::A: to be easier and more effective after the :A::+::B: part >.>
 
Almost the same isn't the same though. Besides..I don't know about you, but I LIKE being able to brag about my JFs online, thank you, lol.
 
now now gentlemen, try to be civil, stay on topic...

I played this guy just now... actually sounded like a young one from the mic...

BB worked great, as he was using attacks that were too slow up close. lots of good interrupts, and sidesteps and 33B. sure, he didn't know much, but it was nice to use basics and actually play the game instead of just 1KA stun combo spam like I used to do against people who didn't know any better.

(I had a cheap laugh, too. "dude, I'm gettin' my ass kicked at like 5:30 in the morning here...")
 
Good posts from iKotomi and ShenYuan. I feel like this kind of stuff should be compiled along with the Newbie Silencer or on the Wiki or something. Maybe one of the mods could sticky a directory topic of links?
 
Yessir... I faced an insane Maxi today, who I won't name...

Poking was the only way out of his never-ending offense. even then, he'd sidestep or tech crouch...

um, when using 2A, is it faster to use WC moves?
I always felt like I'd get hit if I stood up after a 2A instead of staying down.
 
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