Wanting to learn Raph

[piggy]

Now now boys, fight nice, and, in a different thread, please.

For Chakkdizzle - my advice is to be patient while you are learning Raph. It can be frustrating at times, but if you stick to it you should be able to find style that works for you.

When reading through older threads here, it is important to keep in mind that after the 1.03 patch to SC5 Raph changed a lot, so early posts may not always apply - I would stick to reading the newer posts and videos.

Good luck, and welcome!

 

[Aanlaien]

Raph is amazing. I didn't quite understand him at first, but I had a good friend put in perspective how he works, and now he is on par with my skill using my main--Mitsurugi.

Firstly, knowing and utilizing Raph's moves are important. The bigger selection of moves you use, the more you're going to throw off your opponent. There really is no right or wrong move as long as it connects.

Secondly, Raph's combo of speed and range are arguably the best in the game. This makes going up against Nightmare, Siegfried and Maxi a breeze if you play him right.

Thirdly, Raph has one of the biggest options of counters and dodges. You can duck, you can sidestep-strike, you have a few GIs and a counter-teleport move. I've tried this move against Ezio's unblockable gunshot attack from all the way across the map, teleported right behind him and destroyed him with a follow-up grab.

Fourthly, when playing against other players, they are going to try and take advantage of your weaknesses. Raph's weakness is his horizontal attacks, supposedly. Allow them to think that and use it to your advantage. All you need to do is throw in some more horizontal attacks. Here is a list of good horizontals to use in any situation:

Closing distance: 66A
During Preparation: K (Preferably the brave edge version)
During Shadow Evade: A
To dodge a powerful vertical attack: 4A
To bitch-slap from afar: 22A/88A
When close up and they're blocking: 77K/11K
To mix things up: 44A-B Hold

The trick with Raph is use his amazing speed to your advantage. The best way to start an attack against a rusher is 6B-B into preparation. You typically could keep hitting B-B Hold as long as they refuse to block it. When they catch on, watch them closely and mix up your attacks. You have about six options while in preparation.

Raph is an annoying character because of his speed and evasive skills. I mean annoying as a good thing because it means he is a frustrating person to fight. Raph is my second favorite and even I hate fighting against him.

When a knockdown is achieved, I mix up between 66A+B, 66A+K, and 44A+B for mids. If they catch on to the mids, switch to low attacks such as 33B/99B and 77K/11K. Hitting them with that unblockable while they are trying to get up is very useful if you time it right, but it doesn't work well against better players. It absolutely destroys new and moderate players.

An important thing to know about Raph is he needs to be mastered in control. Simply put, don't always go into preparation by holding B or your opponent will catch on. Fake them out by ending the move by letting go of B before preparation is performed. This is something I still struggle with sometimes.

Lastly, throw your opponent off with some lows. Start with 2A, then play around with holding down and pressing A and B in different directions. Finish it off and stand back up with 3B while crouched. The move has amazing range and is powerful even without CH.

Ultimately, Raph is fun to play. His style shows that he thinks he is superior and he's fun to mess around with, but he isn't for everybody. Even I get mad at Raph sometimes because of his general lack of damage he does in comparison to Mitsurugi, but I also switch from Mitsurugi back to Raph because I miss the speed and range that comes with him. To master Raphael would make you look like a pro among your friends. Between his speed and evasiveness, you could toy with your opponent while the spectators think you're some kind of god.

If you have any questions, feel free to message me on here. I'll be happy to answer them for you.

 

[WuHT]

I've tried this move against Ezio's unblockable gunshot attack from all the way across the map, teleported right behind him and destroyed him with a follow-up grab.
.

Teleporting behind someone sounds like SC4 lol

 

[FenrisZero]

Raph is amazing. I didn't quite understand him at first, but I had a good friend put in perspective how he works, and now he is on par with my skill using my main--Mitsurugi.

Firstly, knowing and utilizing Raph's moves are important. The bigger selection of moves you use, the more you're going to throw off your opponent. There really is no right or wrong move as long as it connects.

Wrong. Using more moves doesnt make you better at all. Raph relies on 22B, 2A, and the underused 4B.

Secondly, Raph's combo of speed and range are arguably the best in the game. This makes going up against Nightmare, Siegfried and Maxi a breeze if you play him right.

Raph has average speed and range at best and is extremely linear and is mostly comprised of highs making him predictable. All 3 of those characters have a plethora of long ranged TCing moves that go under Raph's pokes.

Thirdly, Raph has one of the biggest options of counters and dodges. You can duck, you can sidestep-strike, you have a few GIs and a counter-teleport move. I've tried this move against Ezio's unblockable gunshot attack from all the way across the map, teleported right behind him and destroyed him with a follow-up grab.

All of Prep's "dodges" are slow and fall prey to TCing moves. Or 2A.

Fourthly, when playing against other players, they are going to try and take advantage of your weaknesses. Raph's weakness is his horizontal attacks, supposedly. Allow them to think that and use it to your advantage. All you need to do is throw in some more horizontal attacks. Here is a list of good horizontals to use in any situation:

Closing distance: 66A
During Preparation: K (Preferably the brave edge version)
During Shadow Evade: A
To dodge a powerful vertical attack: 4A
To bitch-slap from afar: 22A/88A
When close up and they're blocking: 77K/11K
To mix things up: 44A-B Hold

You Weakness Is Left. All Of These Move You Can Step Left. All Of Them. By Stepping Left.

The trick with Raph is use his amazing speed to your advantage. The best way to start an attack against a rusher is 6B-B into preparation. You typically could keep hitting B-B Hold as long as they refuse to block it. When they catch on, watch them closely and mix up your attacks. You have about six options while in preparation.

Any TCing move beats Prep. Any TCing Move. Or You Can Step Left.

Raph is an annoying character because of his speed and evasive skills. I mean annoying as a good thing because it means he is a frustrating person to fight. Raph is my second favorite and even I hate fighting against him.

Step. Left.

When a knockdown is achieved, I mix up between 66A+B, 66A+K, and 44A+B for mids. If they catch on to the mids, switch to low attacks such as 33B/99B and 77K/11K. Hitting them with that unblockable while they are trying to get up is very useful if you time it right, but it doesn't work well against better players. It absolutely destroys new and moderate players.

Stick with guaranteed damage. Raph has slow low damaging lows.

An important thing to know about Raph is he needs to be mastered in control. Simply put, don't always go into preparation by holding B or your opponent will catch on. Fake them out by ending the move by letting go of B before preparation is performed. This is something I still struggle with sometimes.

Most of your moves go into prep regardless, often making the "control" shift to your opponent. Prep Is Bad.

Lastly, throw your opponent off with some lows. Start with 2A, then play around with holding down and pressing A and B in different directions. Finish it off and stand back up with 3B while crouched. The move has amazing range and is powerful even without CH.

Cause... Umm... What Do... I Dont Even Know What You Mean Here.

Ultimately, Raph is fun to play. His style shows that he thinks he is superior and he's fun to mess around with, but he isn't for everybody. Even I get mad at Raph sometimes because of his general lack of damage he does in comparison to Mitsurugi, but I also switch from Mitsurugi back to Raph because I miss the speed and range that comes with him. To master Raphael would make you look like a pro among your friends. Between his speed and evasiveness, you could toy with your opponent while the spectators think you're some kind of god.

If you have any questions, feel free to message me on here. I'll be happy to answer them for you.

Liking a character is personal preference. Keep playing him if you like to play with him, just dont expect to win at mid level play. Ever.

#Disected

 

[FenrisZero]

Basic Raph;

Kill step with 2A/3A
Side step with 22B
A good TC is 4B, leads into big damage and has a semi safe cancel.
Long range whiff punish is 236B.
Dont forget 2K.
​

Thats My 2 Cents.

 

[Fendante]

Raph has average speed and range at best and is extremely linear and is mostly comprised of highs making him predictable. All 3 of those characters have a plethora of long ranged TCing moves that go under Raph's pokes.

All of Prep's "dodges" are slow and fall prey to TCing moves. Or 2A.

Most of your moves go into prep regardless, often making the "control" shift to your opponent. Prep Is Bad.

Siegfried and Maxi are good matchups for Raph. Raph can also handle Nightmare fairly well. Everyone has good anti-prep moves. One just needs to Prep carefully. It doesn't mean Prep is completely hopeless. Don't forget Raph players can fake Prep entries and -14 is not very punishable against most of the cast.

You Weakness Is Left. All Of These Move You Can Step Left. All Of Them. By Stepping Left.

Do you mean Raph's left or the opponent's left? Raph's left is his strong side. Not all of these horizontals are steppable.

 

[Aanlaien]

I think I should add this video.

Raphael vs. Viola. Lower tier character goes up against the highest tier character in a tournament match. This throws tiers out of the window for me, because he was able to keep up with Viola. They both knew what they were doing.

Keep your harassment inside of your own forums, thanks.

 

[Aanlaien]

Do you mean Raph's left or the opponent's left? Raph's left is his strong side. Not all of these horizontals are steppable.

I have tried to step left and right on all of Raph's horizontal moves that I have posted earlier from medium range. My theory remains correct. Go to training and try it yourself.

I could have added to the 22A/88A that you could also perform 33A/99A which is a mid.

What I meant earlier by mixing up lows is that you can start with 1A. This is a low that sets you in a crouching position. After 1A, you could then toy with your opponent. If they try to sidestep, use 2A. If they try to attack, use 2B, then when they're open finish it off and stand back up with a 3B while crouched, which puts you back in a standing position and is safe when blocked, unsafe when sidestepped. Ultimately, it's up to you when you want to finish it, so you can toy as long as they are close in range.

As I've said before, Raphael is "assumed" to be a linear character. It's true that Raph's more powerful moves are linear, but if you throw in some horizontals, your opponent then has to think about their next move.

As with any character, verticals can be sidestepped. There are only a few exceptions, such as some brave edges (that casuals abuse) and some two-hit combos that start vertical and end horizontal.

 

[WuHT]

Raph has average speed and range at best and is extremely linear and is mostly comprised of highs making him predictable.

Who are you comparing to ? Alpha Pat is in a class of his own. I agree. DNS B? I'd say he's up there, especially at the i12 (6BB) i16 (3B) and i20 (236B) thresholds. The thing is that each of those moves are "pseudo" safe even if you mis-time your attack and it is blocked in that there is a probability you out-think your opponent with prep entries for the first 2 and FC set ups with the last one.

All of Prep's "dodges" are slow and fall prey to TCing moves. Or 2A.

SE is really strong against 2A due to the pushback off a blocked 3(B)~prep (basically anything outside of kiss-range), and a SE B is guaranateed because they don't recover from the whiff in time. I'd say 2A is not really a bother. It is the TC moves that cannot be impacted by prep4 AND are generally faster than prepK that shut down prep hard (best example is bullrush, but I also hate Viola's 8A+B). Nonetheless entering prep on block other than 3(B)~ and 66(B)~ seems to be really risky and should not be spammed.

You Weakness Is Left. All Of These Move You Can Step Left. All Of Them. By Stepping Left.

The sad thing is that prepK only tracks at his foot and not his leg, so if the opponent is close enough he can easily step prepK either side. At the tip of prepK it is pretty reliable step killer actually (so make sure you gauge your positioning and distancing properly so you're not out of range nor in the step-able deadzone) so anytime you're entering prep at +frames you'll CH side step attempts if spaced properly. That will take you experience and time to get the right feel.

Raphael vs. Viola. Lower tier character goes up against the highest tier character in a tournament match. This throws tiers out of the window for me, because he was able to keep up with Viola. They both knew what they were doing.

While it is a good video, the whole point of tiers is that there is a tangible difference at the highest level of play. Consistency is actually improves the tier rating, and I don't see a lot of Raph in grand finals. If anything, its the mid-level of play that tier theory is less strong because there are other factors (character/matchup ignorance imo being a key difference maker in this skill bracket).


Side note to other mid-level players: Personally I only prep (other than a guaranteed combo) is if I am CH fishing with prep BB BE or you have them to a wall and you can try prep K~CE setups knowing they'll try to step.
Otherwise, I just retreat to neutral frames or sparingly throw in a low-risk prepA once in a while to let them know that there is still a threat.
It is highly annoying to the opponent if you COULD continue prep pressure but instead choose to just backdash away and let them have to come to you.
Only do SE entries if you're certain the opponent will take a defensive position (ie you've locked them down mentally) and will either just hold guard or attempt to step. I noticed sometimes that other Raphs "hope" the opponent is frozen and transition to SE off a lot of prep entries which will backfire horribly against someone with experience against Raph. If you noticed your opponent likes to push buttons then continue with prepBB BE CH fishing instead, the risk is lower

prepB(B)~prepBB on hit only has 1 frame where the opponent can do anything (and they'll likely choose to crouch), so thats worth considering.

And please, just to mess with them, do at least one complete empty prep towards them. You can learn a lot from your opponent from how they react. While you can prep4, you are still invulnerable to all high moves for the entire prep duration until you can block. You will end up close to them and ALIGNED them to them more importantly. The good thing is that Raph still has decent tools up close due to having the standard 2A, one of the fastest CEs, a solid 6BB BE CH, and 8A+B.

 

[Aanlaien]

I looked further into it and you're right Wuht. Some of these moves can be sidestepped with precise timing. While it is difficult to do, it's not impossible.

Preparation can be risky. It's good to know when to stop. The prepB(B)~prepBB that you spoke of can be ducked. The only option as Raph to get out of it is to press K if they duck or A+B if they expect a K, which is slow and can be blocked even if they stand. If you follow through with prepBB after they duck however, you're in trouble.

I also looked further into it, and while using Raph I discovered that during prepB(B) you can JG the first B and duck and counter the second. Of course in an actual match it's harder to pull off unless someone does prepB(B) all of the time.

 

[WuHT]

I looked further into it and you're right Wuht. Some of these moves can be sidestepped with precise timing. While it is difficult to do, it's not impossible.

Yes feel free to contribute findings.. the game is still well alive.
http://8wayrun.com/threads/into-prep-analysis.10399/ is probably the best place (I assume you've read through it).
When us raph players arn't too busy dominating tournaments (lol) we're pretty decent at working around and understanding his mechanics.

Some random thoughts on SE A vs SE B.
Sometimes I run into players who do not like blocking the SE B and rather take the SE A CH. SE A on hit turns the opponent backturned and gives you a massive +10. Take the time to understand what BT moves other characters can do. For instance, Mitsu oddly will trade his BT B+K with your own 236B since his BT B+K is only i10 (!!).

 

[Fendante]

SE A on hit turns the opponent backturned and gives you a massive +10. Take the time to understand what BT moves other characters can do. For instance, Mitsu oddly will trade his BT B+K with your own 236B since his BT B+K is only i10 (!!).

Are you sure it's +10? The frame data page says +8 but I seem to recall it said +10 prepatch.

 

[WuHT]

well 236B is i20 and it trades on SE A with mitsu's BT B+K which is i10 (assuming they're right). We can update the frame data no problem