Looking at the Major Changes of SCV Positively

[Jimbonator]

Hi, first of all this is an opinionated thread but I felt the need to make it. Debating is not only allowed but encouraged.

This thread was made to talk about common opinions that are posted on the forums from general threads and soul arenas. I want to offer a reasoning on why things are what they are in SCV as opposed to SCIV and even the earlier iterations.

Moveset Streamlining
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Movesets as a whole were reduced but this is something we have all been aware of forever now. Why did this happen? Well not to punish devoted players or to screw with people, the overall system of Calibur changed and the moveset needed to be tweaked to reflect that. This is nothing new and happens every game, just happens to be a drastic change in SCV's case.

Barring forward step, moving is now -20 on all fronts. Movement now has a significant risk to it as opposed to the step G mechanic that has been with the series. This change in of itself makes characters that can contain movement very strong, throwing SC4 versions of the current roster would not work as the weak will get weaker and strong will get stronger. So changes to the moveset were needed just to make the mechanic sound. Speed of moves and reward on run counter and normal hit had to be assessed. So lets start with the reduction of moves available at neutral with no movement involved.

The past system had no movement buffer needed to do attacks like a 22B, 11K, 33A, etc but given the movement change that was no longer the case and a 10 frame step was added to moves like this while 66 and 44 moves remained the same. In order to make these moves attractive to use, they needed very strong effects. Moves like these would be incredibly stupid if we could use them from neutral willy-nilly.

Ezio 22K
Tira 22B
Pat 11K
Nightmare 22A
Algol 22A, 11K, 22B
Omega 22K, 11B
Sieg 22A
Raph 22B, 33KB 22A
Mitsu 22A, 33K, 22B, 11B
and many many others....

This also devalues other moves these characters can do from neutral without movement. Without the movement requirement to certain attacks, Mitsu's issues with safe mid step killers and lack of easy to access TC moves would be gone. Omega would constantly have a decent ranged, very fast, safe mid step killing kick to keep people in check and Raphael would be a nightmare to approach. Pat's 1K would also be much less attractive to use, etc etc etc. The movement change forces you to use your moveset fully and weigh the pros and cons of everything you do. Characters were much easier to diversify now despite the added prerequisites to do particular actions and removal of certain moves...which leads me to.

Quantity of moves=/=Depth of the game
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This is probably one of if not the biggest comment concerning SCV is that the smaller movelists chokes the variety and creativity characters have. In terms of efficiency and clear vision on what a character is designed to do this is FALSE. You do not need 3 moves that all do essentially the same thing. Let me go over a few characters and explain.

The Gutting and Alteration of Stances​

Mitsurugi
SCIV Rugi: Rushdown mix up character

What was removed: Relic stance. (while cool, everything was unsafe, couldn't move well or block, but decent pressure)

SCV Rugi result: Very safe poking adept character with access to immediate 50/50s if all else fails.

Ivy

Ivy is a character who changes drastically with every new iteration and she morphs to reflect the system she is in. A drastic system change demanded a drastic Ivy overhaul, she just now happens to be a lot simpler. Ivy in SCIV was also incredibly stupid. So the developers had to change a dynamic character to thrive in a completely new system with movement changes and just guard. Ivy then had her stances gutted as A) We are cutting down on useless moves and B) She was near broken. This was the product we got.

Siegfried

Stances were a prominent part of Sieg's movelist in four so instead of taking that away, he was given moves that had a clear, strong purpose. Base hold now had a clear and consistent purpose in repelling horizontals. Chief Hold A+B was removed because Chief Hold B did the same thing post 3B hit and it became a stance about getting damage and covering your ass on a miscalculation (getting it blocked.) Reverse Side Hold is clearly now about an immediate 50/50 and Side Hold can be used to backstep punish really unsafe moves or to play with interrupts on a blocked entry. Siegfried has a clear purpose in life now. to whiff

Raphael

Shadow Evade Beta was cool and had really good moves but it was the most impractical thing in the world to access, just having one shadow evade with the good stuff is what Raphael needed.

Kilik/Xiba

The introduction of remembrance colors Xiba tremendously and its about him turning around lousy situations. It has a purpose of countering the opponent's offense. It also multitasks where as monument and the other stance both countered different things and you had to guess yourself.

The Meter System
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This feature I think has been gradually getting more and more accepted as time goes on but hear is my rationalization. This goes back to giving particular moves a set value. Lets go back our buddy Mitsurugi and his famous 2KB. Just Ukemi was removed from SCIV so know Mitsurugi has a unseeable step killing low that knocked down on normal hit and could not be just ukemied. Pretty bad situation. Having an easy to use tool like that without any cost can drastically color how a character is played and how a match is going to go...if only we had some sort of finite resource that could keep really really good moves in the game but at a cost...

Meter!

Meter is this really cool thing that allows you to change a property of a move for the better (most of the time) and opens up new possibilities that your character can do to exact offense and get your win.

Meter Management and the Change of Guard Impact
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Our meter mechanic can be used to enhance moves or access a critical edge but it can also be used to guard impact. The GI change has left a lot of people sour but there are reasons for this.

1) Initiating a GI war had large risk for potentially no reward.
2) GI had two hit levels so you had to guess what kind of attack your opponent was even going to do.
3) GI only had large strength when you could react to something. (Amy 66A)
4. GI was only +20.

So as a defensive mechanic it did not really adhere to the definition of defense too closely. It was then changed to take up a half bar of meter, works on all hit levels, and buffed to +27.

Those changes make GI the game changers they wanted to be, it also makes you weary of own meter and your opponents and adds another level of thinking to layer in. +27 also gives you A LOT of room to play with post GI attacks to mess up your opponent's rhythm and get your free damage. You don't even need to worry about what kind of attack your opponent will do! Again, everything now has a more distinct value to it in the economy of risk/reward. This change was for the better.

Just Guard
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With the removal of meterless GI we were given an additional method for defense. Just guard enables all characters to hurt any other character with the adequate read. Removing JG would revert back to problems we had in SCIV. Ivy would be dominant (assuming her SCIV iteration made the cut for V), Kilik's Asura dance would be back in business, and Amy would still ran rampant. Just guard is able to keep these characters in check if they were in SCV. So rather than the JG mechanic cripple the offense prevalent in SCIV characters needed to change some more. Just guard can be argued to be tweaked but the fact is that it levels the playing field considerably.

This game is too easy now because I can just pick up and play.
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This one is not as common as the others but I still see comments like this once in awhile. SCV and SC in general is: Easy to learn, hard to master. People who say this are not winning against top level players who compete offline to test their skill. Characters all have more distinct purposes but that does NOT mean they are strictly choked to their role of zoner or mix ups or whatever. This game is very malleable given the plethora of applicable mechanics. If a fighting game is easy to pick up that should be a plus as it gets people into it easier.

Now get out there and enjoy the game we have.

 

[Party Wolf]

Everything in your first post was pretty accurate, but I have been given the option to debate why I don't like some of it.

This game is too silly because there are too many mechanics. Sure, the characters are balanced to an extent (there are viable weak characters vs viable retarded characters), but the player playstyle it favors is offense/mashing because the game is too unsafe even if you are cautious. Guard burst, unsafe movement, damage output, and safe tracking vertical launchers that do stupid guard damage don't mix well. You always have to be fighting because all of the stuff above kills you.

Since meter exists (I like meter) to increase the already high damage output, a problem occurs since you will get a full CE for getting your ass kicked. Then the dude getting fucked up who had wasted is meter before gets that Guard Burst they saved with Viola or something and win. A lot of the time it isn't like you could have ran away because of the unsafe movement. So your opponent sucked but they got a 2nd comeback mechanic since you got two rounds on them and blocked too much.

Guard Burst + Unsafe movement = A mix up (assuming you can move) where you get launched for blocking OR you get launched for moving, which often kills because of damage output or the ringout potential of certain characters.

Not saying it is unwinnable for a player who wants to be defensive, but the game doesn't favor it. Stuff like that favors some scrub getting a random win since you pretty much couldn't do anything without a lot of great guesswork. Maybe SEPHIROTHxKIRBY's Aeon will get a lifestyle win for being a dumbass and throwing out a 3B randomly and you blocked it. Don't forget classic strats like Pyrrha 66B infinite since you can't be guard bursted or else you lose. GI/JG is important in that last round situation since it turns a guaranteed guard burst win into a 50/50 guard burst win lol. JG does force and execution on to new players since you HAVE to learn it, but whether or not that is a good thing is beyond me.

The only problem I have with Just Guard is that it enables glitches like Ukemi JG, re-GI JG, and Viola/ZWEI JG the GI. These nerf the already situational GI/aGI reads or they BREAK combos that were designed to be guaranteed. In the next game I would enjoy it more if JG or GI restores guard burst damage instead of JG increasing meter gain if they insist on keeping all of the mechanics that are stated.

I like all Soulcaliburs, but SCV isn't a perfect game. Just a good one.

P.S. infinite stages suck since it is counter-intuitive to the design of characters that have been made for walls and rings or just genuinely suck at chasing people. You can become a god or you can become crap at the stage select screen depending on who you pick.

 

[HydroJames]

What are your takes on some of the mechanics from all of the old games, which I think were quite questionable for a competitive fighting-game series.

Breakable Weapons from Soul Edge/Blade...
Soul Charge from Soul Calibur 1-3...
Critical Finish from Soul Calibur 4/Broken Destiny...

 

[Marginal]

Soul charge had its place. It wasn't as useful for every character in every game.

Breakable weapons was a tradeoff for the supermove thinggie mostly.

CF wasn't questionable for SCIV. It was for Broken Destiny.

 

[taffertier]

but the player playstyle it favors is offense/mashing because the game is too unsafe even if you are cautious

Care to elaborate on this? I would have thought that since things are so unsafe it would make more sense to be cautious. If you're being mad offensive and mashing wont you get punished for it? The only case where this wouldnt be true is for those safe, well tracking launchers / attacks you mentioned, which while pretty dumb, are kind of character dependent and vary in terms of effectiveness.

 

[Party Wolf]

Well let's look at the negatives of defensive mechanics.

GI - Costs meter, unsafe if you guess wrong
JG - Almost none except for the fact that if you are holding guard after every attempt to make it safe you end up blocking those safe tracking launchers or get thrown. E.g. if you are fighting maxi and he wants to rising B+K it is slow enough to where you aren't going to JG it unless you are waiting for that specifically, which requires rck hrd rdz.
Movement - It works, but it is -20, so most things catch it if you are at frame disadvantage, which forces you to block, or get hit for moving.
Blocking - Guard burst or standard mix ups.

Negatives of offense

Linear moves can be stepped and launched, but there is so much stuff that tracks to where you need extensive knowledge of tracking properties (that sometimes track more for sidestepping into a launcher if they are still in their start up) or you get fucked up. Not to mention characters with stupid safe horizontals to where they are safe and can JG to get you to respect their offense, and that's when mashing becomes stronger.

JG can get you messed up for having obvious rhythms.... sometimes. Standard pokes outside of AA are safe as fuck on JG, so 2A mashes aren't even discouraged unless you rck hrd read with Jump attacks or -20 movement. So it is simple enough to just bust out the safe tracking launcher that guard bursts in something stupid like 9.

CH fishers can frame trap you but it falls to the whole JG to start up offense again. So you'll probably end up mashing shit like 2A because you are scared of getting JGd and fucked up.

It is also important to note that the best offense based characters have the best JG punishes, which is another reason why it favors offense.


I think all of this is very prevalent in the tournaments and tier lists that mashing is great in this game. A lot of things just handicap defense. You HAVE to have a read on your opponent to get damage on the defensive because of the risk involved when compared to offense where you can still fail to guess correctly on your mid that happens to be a safe tracking launcher that adds heavy guard burst damage. The system really favors this and it would be hard for me to believe other people not seeing it that way... unless they're french or something.

tl;dr: Defense is high risk mid-high reward where offense is low-mid risk and high reward.

 

[Dr. Hates]

Rather than offense/defense, it might be productive to think of things in terms of action/inaction. Generally speaking, you mitigate risk in previous SC games through blocking and movement. In SCV, however, movement is so unsafe that you seldom want to do it for mere positioning--in other words, if I don't stand to immediately benefit by damaging my opponent, why put myself at -20 just for the sake of positioning? How many other -20 moves do you throw out all the time?

That being the case, it's almost always better to try solving situations with buttons rather than disengaging, blocking, or evading, which is why characters with safe, fast moves that cover multiple options can faceroll so effectively.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Hmm, movement is a iffy subject for me since I based my original fundamentals around it. At the same time, movement the way it was pre-patch really did cripple some characters' options to kill step/backstep.

On Guard Burst: I liked the mechanic after seeing it in SC4, but SC4 messed up by making it a guaranteed kill regardless of positioning, life leads, etc. In 5, you get a free combo, which only has a chance to kill you based on a number of factors. But, with 90% of lows being unsafe and/or reactable, and the higher damage output for countering grabs, I feel there needed to be something that balance out the lack of mid/low potential for many characters. To get rid of Guard Burst, would mean to place a greater need for quick, safe, rewarding lows to break defense.

If there's an issue with tracking moves that launch AND break guard, then the problem, imo, is with those attack properties. Not Guard Burst itself.

On JG: I've said this since the day I found out about Ukemi JG. You should never be allowed to JG in situations you can't block normally. Whiffing GIs into JG, (while cool to see), is straight nonsense, and adds an unnecessary risk to an already risky GI mixup. Outside of those kinds of situations, I fully support the JG mechanic, and I hope it stays should there be an SC6.

And yeah, infinite stages are just not a good idea.

 

[DeathInMyEyes]

Infinite stages are a great idea. I'm just not getting the hate for them.

For characters like raph who have poor wall AND RO game, all that is left is their spacing game. Infinite stages work great for those characters. It also prevents shit like ridiculous viola RO carries.

Infinite stages are also fucking amazing in training mode.

There definitely shouldn't be as many of them as there are, though. I think one is fine, or maybe two if one changes layout at a certain interval.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Infinite stages are a great idea. I'm just not getting the hate for them.

For characters like raph who have poor wall AND RO game, all that is left is their spacing game. Infinite stages work great for those characters. It also prevents shit like ridiculous viola RO carries.

Infinite stages are also fucking amazing in training mode.

There definitely shouldn't be as many of them as there are, though. I think one is fine, or maybe two if one changes layout at a certain interval.

My problem is creating situations where you're basically sitting on life leads with no fear of positioning. Raph for example may not do as well in ROs or wall combos as others, but he can still corner someone who's running away. Raph's spacing game isn't as big of a deal if he's the one that has to make a comeback. I'm fine with large stages, and walled stages with no ROs though.

There's also the changing ones like Elysium's which is one way to balance it

 

[Dr. Hates]

Re: infinite stages

For me, a huge part of previous SC games' meta was about positioning oneself properly and controlling space in the ring relative to edges, walls, etc. Infinite stages remove that entirely, which removes a dimension from the experience I'd rather not lose.

 

[Marginal]

Infinite stages are a great idea. I'm just not getting the hate for them.

You would say that.

 

[WuHT]

Agree with the points of streamlining movesets (cutting out the excess fat) for moves that all should serve a purpose.

I like the current meter system except I can't reconcile the fact that the minimum cost of meter moves is defined as "2 bars" and that the only other meter expenditure is uses the entire 4 bar. It's strange they have 1 bar measurements but nothing costing 1 bar.

Functionally I don't agree with the purpose of JG having no obvious downsides (the drawback seems like a side-effect of execution rather than by-design). While it is accessible to all characters, it's pretty much superior to regular blocking (which obviously is also available to all characters outside of certain stances). It cuts down your decision making, in that it is almost always superior to JG rather than just guarding if you can execute it, which is toxic to the overall health of the game in my humble opinion.
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Secondly, I don't see the point of JG being "required to level out the playing field" as the strength of JG simply relies on 1) opponent's safety when JG'd and 2) your own punish game when given more frames. These 2 properties are mechanical identical to a character's block-punish game and seem redundant to me. I see JG as a counter against guard-break moves.

The only way I can see it being a game balancer is in the scenario where
1) Character 1 who has a solid block punish game (ie good punisher at i14-i15) AND does not have a good combo starter from i20+. (Unfortunately most of the characters who have the strongest fast punishers also end up with some of the strongest combos off launchers).
2) Character 2 who has a non-existent i14-i15 punishers but respectable i20+ launcher.
Character 2 would use JG to deal with the nonsense that Character 1 would normally deal with by using regular guard. I don't think this is a something prevalent in SC5 and I wouldn't like having to master JG just to compete with Character 2.

It seems to me the characters that can take advantage of a successful JG are usually the ones with the better block punishers anyways. I don't have any comment on whether naturally unsafe characters suffer a greater degree when their moves are JG'd.
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It seems like a lot of characters have huge guard break moves that actually offer significant advantage when blocked (eg: Sieg 66A, Raph 66(B), Maxi 6A+B BE, Hilde 22B) that seemed like a reactionary design to justify JG. Those big lightning flashes serve as a "shoulda JG'd me" sign which is superior to risking movement as another defensive option.

JG (if it retains the awkward execution) imo should be actually designed to specifically counter JF (especially JF that makes moves safer). This would mean that more characters would have JF moves which I'm not against. I like JF's role as enhancing a move, rather than act as combo-defining execution barrier. Whether or not JF returns is dependent on the redundancy of JF vs BE moves.

I much prefer a more simplified system where guard is the zero risk defense, while any other active defense should have some sort of resource cost (meter'd GI) to fight against mixups or some risk associated for greater rewards (aGIs/movement) to fight against guard burst/guard breaking moves.

 

[Reptile]

I like the guard burst system. 0 risk for guarding means grab city (especially with safe movement), and doesn't make for very interesting competitive play. Maybe they could make it better, I'm not sure, but it's already much better as it is than the gimmick that it was in IV.

@WuHT, you're wrong about meter. Since when you can use full meter in one move? Also the maximum meter is defined as 2 bars, not 4. A Critical Edge uses 1 full bar while BE's and GI's use half a bar.

Another thing I can't agree with, is that JG rewards more the characters with already strong block punishment. You play Raph, so yeah in his particular case, he doesn't get much outside of 3(B). If you take Aeon for example though, who is a mediocre block punisher, he becomes an extremely dangerous JG punisher with strong i15, i18, i19 launchers and much more RO threat. The negated pushback helps him out a lot too.

Edit : Xiba has a great RO, i19 launcher for JG's too, but he's an ass punisher in general. There are others too, but I don't feel like making a list.

The only way I can see it being a game balancer :
2) Character 2 who has a non-existent i14-i15 punishers but respectable i20+ launcher.

It's actually what's going on in alot of cases, like I explained. Sorry Raph ain't like that.

 

[CaptainHook]

There are too many frames to memorize. Before this game, there was only 'on block' and impact. JG adds a third number to memorize PER MOVE.
And then you have all these 'stepping aids' like 446g or something like that. I'm not really familiar with them, but someone else explained them in great detail in another thread. Point is, they change the frames on stepping.

And that's not even counting the guard burst numbers. So actually now that I think about it there are 4 numbers to keep in mind now per move.

So despite the fact that the move lists are shorter and easier to memorize in 5, there is a whole lot more other things to remember now. It's a bit nauseating and requires far too much 'study' to be proficient. I'm willing to put in work to get better like most people, but the moment when hitting the lab becomes a grind/chore, count me out.

I'm still kinda shocked that after this many games they still haven't addressed the problem with tracking moves. Horizontals are supposed to catch step, not verticals. I'm perfectly okay with certain verticals having a wide hitbox (as long as it isn't as redonkulas as asta's bullrush), but when the attacking character literally 'shifts' their position during a move to mirror the opponent's, all I can say is how dumb it is.

And then you have to also memorize which moves track, and which direction they track.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that this game was made to appeal to newbs. Given all the technical shit you have to know and all the more complex mechanics, how can anyone say this?

There are still tons of useless moves. What can be said though, is that a greater percentage of the moves are used. In the end it feels pretty much the same as it's been in any other game with the only advantage being that it's now easier to learn a character. It's still quite repetitive in high lvl play to watch. In fact, I can't even watch other people play anymore because it literally puts me to sleep.

I agree that every move should do something different, but I would rather they take 3 moves that do the same thing and tweak them into unique purposes rather than just gutting the other 2 moves entirely. It's quite a lazy way to balance a move set. I'm fine if they take out the garbage stuff, just give me other moves to take their place.

I like the concept of meter in general, including the 'new' GI. Only gripe is that some BE's are not even that good, and certainly not worth the meter.

JG is ok for the most part, but I wish the reduction in frames would be universal. For example make it a consistent -6 addition to normal on block. This would make the application much easier (for best punishment) and much less numbers to memorize. This may not do much for guard breakers (or any move which is +on block like Sieg AGA for example) but at least you can avoid the frame trap. Obviously, if such a change happened, other moves would have to be tweaked to accommodate this change (I'm looking at you, Astaroth)

There are too many comeback mechanics in this game. JG is bad enough because it avoids a guard burst. Then you have of course guard burst, which happens a lot more than in should because stepping is so unsafe in this game. Then you have the meter mechanic itself, which by itself is fine but when you combine it with all these other comeback mechanics and a high damage output in general, the tides are turned way too easily. Then of course you have ruthless wall combos, and then after all this nonsense you have a free bar of meter to the losing player, in a game that already passes out meter like candy.

Adding a 10 frame buffer to 8wr moves is yet again, more crap to memorize. If removing this would make those moves too strong, why don't they just nerf the moves instead? Why this unnecessary barrier? It's just more needless crap that doesn't need to be there.

I don't like universal AA's, BB's, and 2A's. I like diversity, not more of the same. They fill too many holes, and don't leave enough space for the other moves to fill.

This game is only marginally more balanced than 3 and 4. Technically Viola is just as game breaking as Hilde from 4 because of her back throw infinite. yes there is a ban on it in tourneys, but it still exists in the game. Low tiers are just as under-represented in high lvl play as they were before, and of course the game is still dominated by the top tiers. Yes there are exceptions but they are far and few between. The balance is still pretty gawd awful. And no, JG does NOT level the playing field, it just makes the dominant punishing characters that much more dominant.

I suppose at the end of the day you could say that 5 is an improvement from any of the past games, but that shouldn't be a point of praise because we went from a shitstorm to a slightly less shitty storm. Yeah, they polished a turd alright.

I'm saying this because I've finally realized that I don't like SC anymore. When I originally fell in love with the game, it thought the game operated a certain way. If I knew then what I know now about the game, I would have dropped it immediately. It was great on the surface but once you dig deep all these problems begin to emerge. There are still tons of things I don't know about this game, but the more I learn the more I hate it. So I decided on a state of willful ignorance because it no longer interested me.

I still enjoy talking about the series because I have this hope that one day they will release a SC game that finally addresses all the major issues and turn it into a decent game for once. I had hopes for SCV back in early 2012, but then I started despising it with almost the same level of disdain I had for the previous games. A game should never feel like work. The point is to enjoy it.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

There are too many frames to memorize. Before this game, there was only 'on block' and impact. JG adds a third number to memorize PER MOVE.
And then you have all these 'stepping aids' like 446g or something like that. I'm not really familiar with them, but someone else explained them in great detail in another thread. Point is, they change the frames on stepping.

And that's not even counting the guard burst numbers. So actually now that I think about it there are 4 numbers to keep in mind now per move.

So despite the fact that the move lists are shorter and easier to memorize in 5, there is a whole lot more other things to remember now. It's a bit nauseating and requires far too much 'study' to be proficient. I'm willing to put in work to get better like most people, but the moment when hitting the lab becomes a grind/chore, count me out.

You're overthinking it. Usually people "memorize these frames" by just playing. You JG a move and try to launch, it gets blocked, and you go "oh, guess it's not that unsafe". It's just trial and error. I still don't know every frame, but really you have AA, staple punisher, and launcher. That's it.

I'm still kinda shocked that after this many games they still haven't addressed the problem with tracking moves. Horizontals are supposed to catch step, not verticals. I'm perfectly okay with certain verticals having a wide hitbox (as long as it isn't as redonkulas as asta's bullrush), but when the attacking character literally 'shifts' their position during a move to mirror the opponent's, all I can say is how dumb it is.

To be fair, tracking moves aren't the easiest thing in the world to fix. The coding for hitboxes/hurtboxes and stuff gets complicated. Just the way a character stands, or their different step animations adds to this. (EX: Leixia and Natsu hop to the side and can "jump" lows at certain points. Meanwhile Leixia can't step out of Viola orb because her arms get touched.) Now, full tracking moves like maxi WS B+K are a different story

JG is ok for the most part, but I wish the reduction in frames would be universal. For example make it a consistent -6 addition to normal on block. This would make the application much easier (for best punishment) and much less numbers to memorize.

This would be impossible to do. JG reduces block stun, and every move has a different length of block stun. How bad it is on JG is entirely based on the animation of said move.

This game is only marginally more balanced than 3 and 4. Technically Viola is just as game breaking as Hilde from 4 because of her back throw infinite. yes there is a ban on it in tourneys, but it still exists in the game. Low tiers are just as under-represented in high lvl play as they were before, and of course the game is still dominated by the top tiers.

Highly disagree on the low tiers thing. Sure this game isn't as balanced as it could be, but 4 was a atrocious, and all I know about SC3 was that Talim was unplayable.

 

[Slade]

There are too many frames to memorize. Before this game, there was only 'on block' and impact. JG adds a third number to memorize PER MOVE.

Or you could not memorize the number, and just know which categories of moves are punishable by what. If your character's optimal punishment for -16 is the same as for -17, the difference is irrelevant.

And then you have all these 'stepping aids' like 446g or something like that. I'm not really familiar with them, but someone else explained them in great detail in another thread. Point is, they change the frames on stepping.

No. I'm not aware of any mechanics that allow the player to circumvent the minimum number of vulnerability frames from stepping, barring very specific circumstances (immediately after a CE cutscene, e.g.).

And that's not even counting the guard burst numbers. So actually now that I think about it there are 4 numbers to keep in mind now per move.

The exact number of successive blocks required for a move to break is not useful to know in an actual match. It's just a means of comparing the moves to each other. In reality, one just has to know which moves are good at breaking guard and which ones aren't, and the vast majority of moves fit a trend (slow, less-likely-to-be-blocked == greater guard damage).

So despite the fact that the move lists are shorter and easier to memorize in 5, there is a whole lot more other things to remember now.

Per above, no one actually bothers memorizing half the things you said.

It's a bit nauseating and requires far too much 'study' to be proficient. I'm willing to put in work to get better like most people, but the moment when hitting the lab becomes a grind/chore, count me out.

So learn by playing. It's absolutely possible to learn your character's best punishes and tactics through the process of elimination while you play. And as long as one is actually getting that experience, it won't result in a competitive disadvantage.

I'm still kinda shocked that after this many games they still haven't addressed the problem with tracking moves. Horizontals are supposed to catch step, not verticals. I'm perfectly okay with certain verticals having a wide hitbox (as long as it isn't as redonkulas as asta's bullrush), but when the attacking character literally 'shifts' their position during a move to mirror the opponent's, all I can say is how dumb it is.

Agreed, with some restrictions. K attacks are a bit of a fuzzy area.

And then you have to also memorize which moves track, and which direction they track.

Fenris knows which direction he has to step for pretty much every semi-tracking vertical in the game, and he has a grand total of like 10 minutes in training mode. Process of elimination while playing.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that this game was made to appeal to newbs. Given all the technical shit you have to know and all the more complex mechanics, how can anyone say this?

Because when people say that, they're using other games as a point of reference. SCV doesn't seem to have significantly less technical depth than other fighters, though; you may be confusing this with what people say about execution.

There are still tons of useless moves. What can be said though, is that a greater percentage of the moves are used.

True and true.

In the end it feels pretty much the same as it's been in any other game with the only advantage being that it's now easier to learn a character.

Try playing SCIV immediately after playing SCV. That game is ungodly sluggish in comparison.

It's still quite repetitive in high lvl play to watch. In fact, I can't even watch other people play anymore because it literally puts me to sleep.

It really, really depends on the players. It's the fine details that make high level play what it is, and I suspect you don't see or appreciate those when you watch.

I agree that every move should do something different, but I would rather they take 3 moves that do the same thing and tweak them into unique purposes rather than just gutting the other 2 moves entirely. It's quite a lazy way to balance a move set. I'm fine if they take out the garbage stuff, just give me other moves to take their place.

The problem with changing those moves is that they have to gauge those changes in the context of every other move that character has. It's a multidimensional process.

I like the concept of meter in general, including the 'new' GI. Only gripe is that some BE's are not even that good, and certainly not worth the meter.

I agree completely.

JG is ok for the most part, but I wish the reduction in frames would be universal. For example make it a consistent -6 addition to normal on block. This would make the application much easier (for best punishment) and much less numbers to memorize. This may not do much for guard breakers (or any move which is +on block like Sieg AGA for example) but at least you can avoid the frame trap. Obviously, if such a change happened, other moves would have to be tweaked to accommodate this change (I'm looking at you, Astaroth)

JG disadvantage is determined by the number of frames it takes for the move to recover after its first active frame minus a constant value of 14. Punishing stuff on JG without memorizing the exact frames is consistent with how players eyeball whiff punishment; is it a slow, long to recover move? Launcher territory, i18-21ish. "Medium" poke (most nonstandard pokes, e.g. 6Ks and such)? i14-i17ish punish. Fast poke with negligible recovery (most standard pokes, e.g. 2As, AAs, 2Bs)? i11-13ish, AA or mixup territory.

In fact, I reckon that whiff punishing involves even more guesswork, since one might not react to a whiff of a faster move until significantly into its recovery. With JG, you have a blue flash and a 6F pause to indicate exactly when your punishment window began.

There are too many comeback mechanics in this game. JG is bad enough because it avoids a guard burst.

Stepping can avoid a guard burst too. Is it a comeback mechanic? What about getting hit instead of blocking?

Then you have of course guard burst, which happens a lot more than in should because stepping is so unsafe in this game.

How is it a comeback mechanic if it punishes the player who's taking the beating?

Then of course you have ruthless wall combos,

How is it a comeback mechanic if it punishes the player who positions himself poorly or gets forced up against a wall by an attacking opponent?

and then after all this nonsense you have a free bar of meter to the losing player, in a game that already passes out meter like candy.

Free bar of meter is dumb, agreed. It's evenly dumb toward both players, however, so it's not so much a balance problem as a questionable design choice.

Adding a 10 frame buffer to 8wr moves is yet again, more crap to memorize.

It's literally one fact you have to know. Does the move have a sidestep in the input? Your character has to sidestep before doing the move.

If removing this would make those moves too strong, why don't they just nerf the moves instead? Why this unnecessary barrier? It's just more needless crap that doesn't need to be there.

Because without the mechanic, 8wayrun moves might as well not even be classified as such. Forcing the step capitalizes on a distinction that was previously in name only, and creates an actual mechanic out of it.

I don't like universal AA's, BB's, and 2A's. I like diversity, not more of the same. They fill too many holes, and don't leave enough space for the other moves to fill.

They're not that universal. In Tekken, every character has a 10 frame jab. In SCV, from glancing at the character list: 10 characters have "traditional" BBs; 7 have "extended" BBs with optional stance transitions, alternate string froms, etc.; and 8 have slow garbage strings instead of normal BBs.

Besides, weren't you arguing against having more things to memorize?

This game is only marginally more balanced than 3 and 4. Technically Viola is just as game breaking as Hilde from 4 because of her back throw infinite. yes there is a ban on it in tourneys, but it still exists in the game.

Viola's back throw infinite can be banned without gutting the character beyond usability; the same is not true of Hilde's charge combos.

Low tiers are just as under-represented in high lvl play as they were before, and of course the game is still dominated by the top tiers. Yes there are exceptions but they are far and few between. The balance is still pretty gawd awful. And no, JG does NOT level the playing field, it just makes the dominant punishing characters that much more dominant.

But you can't disregard the diversity in which players are winning. It seems as though every tourney recently has had just as many new faces in top 8 as there are old, well known ones. Judging by the rankings here, the standard deviation is about 61 out of 3071 samples. I'd really like to see the stats from previous games to compare it against, but the system is relatively new unfortunately.

I suppose at the end of the day you could say that 5 is an improvement from any of the past games, but that shouldn't be a point of praise because we went from a shitstorm to a slightly less shitty storm. Yeah, they polished a turd alright. I'm saying this because I've finally realized that I don't like SC anymore. When I originally fell in love with the game, it thought the game operated a certain way. If I knew then what I know now about the game, I would have dropped it immediately. It was great on the surface but once you dig deep all these problems begin to emerge. There are still tons of things I don't know about this game, but the more I learn the more I hate it. So I decided on a state of willful ignorance because it no longer interested me. I still enjoy talking about the series because I have this hope that one day they will release a SC game that finally addresses all the major issues and turn it into a decent game for once. I had hopes for SCV back in early 2012, but then I started despising it with almost the same level of disdain I had for the previous games. A game should never feel like work. The point is to enjoy it.

That's more reflective of your personal taste than the quality of the game. For example, I personally cannot stand playing ASSFAGGOTS, which are games like League of Legends and DOTA2. However, it's because I don't like the design of the genre rather than the quality of any particular implementation of it.

 

[WuHT]

@WuHT, you're wrong about meter. Since when you can use full meter in one move? Also the maximum meter is defined as 2 bars, not 4. A Critical Edge uses 1 full bar while BE's and GI's use half a bar.

What I meant was that it appears (to me at least) the basic critical gauge to allow for 4 divisions, yet the smallest spender (being BE) uses 2 of those units. It makes me wonder if the edge meter system was originally designed to allow for moves that would have costed 1/2 a BE's worth of meter.

 

[CaptainHook]

When I said that guard burst is a comeback mechanic, I meant that you could be down in health, get a burst on the opponent and land a nice combo.

The same is true for wall combo's, RO's, JG-punishes, and the buildup of meter from getting your ass kicked.

So say you're down in health, you land a throw that results in a RO, so according you SLDE, just because you positioned yourself correctly and chose the correct grab, that makes it not a comeback mechanic? Having a comeback mechanic doesn't mean there's a brainless way to implement it. Same is true for wall combo's, it's all about position, and meter management.

Wall combo's in general are way overboard and in some cases you get half life or more for a single BE, depending on which character.

In that sense, all comeback mechanics require some good read or a solid decision. I'm not understanding why that negates it being such.

 

[CaptainHook]

Someone asked about those stepping mechanics. Here's the thread:
http://8wayrun.com/threads/lesser-known-advanced-mechanics-of-sc5.18389/