Looking at the Major Changes of SCV Positively

[Slade]

Not when you start the first round of a match...And even then only a few times. No contest to "yesterdays system".

Those guard impacts also didn't give anything more than a throw mixup at best. In SCV, GIs are much more powerful, and if a player chooses to use all of his meter to extend combos or use BEs, he opens himself up to a guaranteed combo if the opponent GIs him. It creates a situation where meter is used for defensive purposes rather than offensive ones.

Contrast that with SCII, where a glitch allowed one to block immediately after getting GIed, or SCIV, where GIs were essentially worthless except as a counter to certain reactable moves like Amy 66A or certain strings (a role now occupied by JG and SCV's more evasive movement).

I highly recommend watching the crsk and Ruka casuals that are up on YouTube (I'll edit in a link when I'm not typing on a mobile device Part 1 Part 2). Both players utilize GIs in ways that were simply not possible or useful in earlier games.

Jimbo talked about GI in his OP. I'd suggest starting with his points there if you're interested in making a case against how SCV implements GI.
disregard that jimbo cuntpasted it when I was typing

tl;dr: Making GIs cost meter and guarantee damage if no re-GI is attempted adds a means of using meter defensively, and as a means to counter players who overuse meter on their offensive options.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I am not talking about glitches here. In my country certain glitches were NEVER allowed.

But we can exclude SCII if you want since in SC(DC) and SCIII(at least the arcade version) guard impact worked really well and you had ENOUGH! time to use different moves targeting different highs to deal damage against the opponent and not just using throw mixups(which you could also do as well of course).

The thing is I LOVED GI-battles back then! The shorter window and different inputs for low/high made it very interesting and MANLY (lol) to master this mechanic and you had access to it whenever you wanted(excluding things like off the ground GI and of course)!

But nowaydays it became a DOUBLE EDGED SWORD! On one hand it is way too easy to perform and gives way too much time to land an attck after "SUCCESFUL" use and on the other hand you do not have acces to it when you might REALLY need it or at the beginning of the battle ´cause NO METER. Don´t know how you guys say that this is an improvment. Sounds to me like a step forth and back and that is nothing to be proud of.

I hope SCVI is different... Or we get a SCIII arcade HD Online edition in the future so people who liked the old GI-System can use it again.

 

[Slade]

I am not talking about glitches here. In my country certain glitches were NEVER allowed.

I have a difficult time imagining a practical way of disallowing something like the 2G glitch. It was so ubiquitous that people started coming up with all sorts of wacky setups for backthrows and such in an attempt to get around it.

I missed SCIII completely though, so input from someone like @Dr. Hates who played the game extensively would be invaluable here.

But we can exclude SCII if you want since in SC(DC) and SCIII(at least the arcade version) guard impact worked really well and you had ENOUGH! time to use different moves targeting different highs to deal damage against the opponent and not just using throw mixups(which you could also do as well of course).

The thing is I LOVED GI-battles back then! The shorter window and different inputs for low/high made it very interesting and MANLY (lol) to master this mechanic and you had access to it whenever you wanted(excluding things like off the ground GI and of course)!

But nowaydays it became a DOUBLE EDGED SWORD! On one hand it is way too easy to perform and gives way too much time to land an attck after "SUCCESFUL" use and on the other hand you do not have acces to it when you might REALLY need it or at the beginning of the battle ´cause NO METER. Don´t know how you guys say that this is an improvment. Sounds to me like a step forth and back and that is nothing to be proud of.

That's just the thing though. In SCV, there are strategic in addition to just tactical considerations when it comes to using GI. GI battles in the earlier games played out more like a quick time event where both players suddenly find themselves thrust into a game of rock/paper/scissors, which is almost completely unaffected by all but the most immediate action prior to its initiation. The change to require meter makes the players take into account how this affects their chances of winning a GI battle and adjust their use of meter accordingly.

The older systems had more variety in input, sure, but the lack of coherency with the rest of the mechanics made them much, much simpler from a top-down perspective. It's why I think my comparison to QTEs is applicable here: They were removed from the rest of the game's mechanics in a way that made them stick out like a sore thumb. It's arguable that that's a big part of their charm, but I don't think it makes for a particularly good mechanic.

Injustice attempted to implement a similar metagame with its wager system, but the way SCV handles it is less intrusive and a lot more natural.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

That's just the thing though. In SCV, there are strategic in addition to just tactical considerations when it comes to using GI. GI battles in the earlier games played out more like a quick time event where both players suddenly find themselves thrust into a game of rock/paper/scissors, which is almost completely unaffected by all but the most immediate action prior to its initiation. The change to require meter makes the players take into account how this affects their chances of winning a GI battle and adjust their use of meter accordingly.

The older systems had more variety in input, sure, but the lack of coherency with the rest of the mechanics made them much, much simpler from a top-down perspective. It's why I think my comparison to QTEs is applicable here: They were removed from the rest of the game's mechanics in a way that made them stick out like a sore thumb. It's arguable that that's a big part of their charm, but I don't think it makes for a particularly good mechanic.

Injustice attempted to implement a similar metagame with its wager system, but the way SCV handles it is less intrusive and a lot more natural.

I still miss the old GI-system though. I liked the chance of parrying back and forth against my opponent.
I am OK with Meter in SC but not when it comes to GI. It will be intersting to see how this feature will turn out in the future.
Until then I keep my hopes high for Remakes of older games ´cause SCVI is imo far away from being relased but who knows.

And I do not know Injustice unfortunatelly.

 

[Signia]

I still do not see the overall positive benefits of just guard. In the end it´s in the game so I had to deal with it. But playing a Character like Asta makes JG not usefull in generell. So maybe that has something to do with my "hatred" for this mechanic.

Omg, JG is very useful for Astaroth. You know how when you JG a 2A and you don't get anything for free but can buffer a grab or mid as an uninterruptable mixup? You probably don't know, so just take my word for it I guess. Why this possible? Because JG nullifies pushback

Asta's grab range is so huge on his JF grabs that can do that for everything he JGs at almost any range. Grab attempts are what you want, and I already said that most movement stoppers are -17 or more, so sometimes the grab attempt is free. In any case, you'll have the frames to use 6B as a safe uninterruptable CH mid, and with enough +frames they won't be able to step it. The buffered JF grab will also be uninterruptable and will probably catch their backstep too. 4K hit confirms or bullrush for crouchers. At +16, 4B into mixups isn't bad either.

In general, if you're taking your little K punishes when you're at +13, I think you're squandering the opportunity you have to run mixups. I'm sure you know that Asta's grabs do enough damage that they're worth going for. Even if you're afraid to guess wrong, with those frames you can take a watch-and-wait delayed mixup, delayed CH prediction for they realize the initiative wasn't taken, space a 2A so that its safe, or other things.

I think you, like many others, didn't give this mechanic a chance, and continued playing the game like past games. JG is the new GI. GI is like the new "Soul Repel" special move from SCIV Special VS that cost soul gauge but GI'd everything in a huge window. (if only they put Charge Cancel in as well...).

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I understand what you are saying Signia, but to be honest i HAVE YET TO SEE SOMEONE playing Asta this way!

I mean using just guard for throw mixups. It sounds interesting but I never needed that to be good in this game. To be honest 17i moves after just guard won´t work all day, too many people know to use safer moves in certain situations. And yes you can say that I am one of those who never really adapted to this new system called Just Guard because I rather use other defensive methods(jump attacks, sidestep, bullrush armor) to avoid an opponents attack. So if I am a "Master" of those three mechanice and just "suck" at JG, then I am totally fine with that.

 

[IV Wind]

I understand what you are saying Signia, but to be honest i HAVE YET TO SEE SOMEONE playing Asta this way!

I mean using just guard for throw mixups. It sounds interesting but I never needed that to be good in this game. To be honest 17i moves after just guard won´t work all day, too many people know to use safer moves in certain situations. And yes you can say that I am one of those who never really adapted to this new system called Just Guard because I rather use other defensive methods(jump attacks, sidestep, bullrush armor) to avoid an opponents attack. So if I am a "Master" of those three mechanice and just "suck" at JG, then I am totally fine with that.

start at 1:36:00

 

[Withvees]

I understand what you are saying Signia, but to be honest i HAVE YET TO SEE SOMEONE playing Asta this way!

I mean using just guard for throw mixups. It sounds interesting but I never needed that to be good in this game. To be honest 17i moves after just guard won´t work all day, too many people know to use safer moves in certain situations. And yes you can say that I am one of those who never really adapted to this new system called Just Guard because I rather use other defensive methods(jump attacks, sidestep, bullrush armor) to avoid an opponents attack. So if I am a "Master" of those three mechanice and just "suck" at JG, then I am totally fine with that.

Who doesn't use JG that way?

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

start at 1:36:00

Thanks for the video, did not see that Asta mirror until now. But now to the important things...

First fight: One succesful just guard with no grab attempt(blocked 66K)
Second fight: Again only one just gaurd with no grab attempt(whiffed 66B)
Third fight: Again only one just guard with no grab attemt but a blocked 4B.
Fourth fight: Finally more than one just gaurd and succesful punishes but again NO grab attempt.
Fith fight: Two just guards with no successful punish albeit a 2K was used(No grab attempt)
Last fight... lol it finally happened! One just guard and a sucessful grab attempt!

Let´s evaluate... Out of six fights with multiple rounds 9 just guards were performed of which more than the half was nor real reward aka guaranteed damage and only ONE grab attempt.
So if anything than this video proves my point... Just guard with Asta is just... Not really needed/useful.

Who doesn't use JG that way?

Me for example. I do not like just guard and do not use it because... Astaroth.

 

[Slade]

So if anything than this video proves my point... Just guard with Asta is just... Not really needed/useful.

I'm not seeing anything that would make meterless GI more useful to Astaroth than JG.

 

[Withvees]

Thanks for the video, did not see that Asta mirror until now. But now to the important things...

First fight: One succesful just guard with no grab attempt(blocked 66K)
Second fight: Again only one just gaurd with no grab attempt(whiffed 66B)
Third fight: Again only one just guard with no grab attemt but a blocked 4B.
Fourth fight: Finally more than one just gaurd and succesful punishes but again NO grab attempt.
Fith fight: Two just guards with no successful punish albeit a 2K was used(No grab attempt)
Last fight... lol it finally happened! One just guard and a sucessful grab attempt!

Let´s evaluate... Out of six fights with multiple rounds 9 just guards were performed of which more than the half was nor real reward aka guaranteed damage and only ONE grab attempt.
So if anything than this video proves my point... Just guard with Asta is just... Not really needed/useful.




Me for example. I do not like just guard and do not use it because... Astaroth.

Xiba can pressure Asta with 6BK and 6AK alone. JGing it allows for grabs.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I'm not seeing anything that would make meterless GI more useful to Astaroth than JG.

Meterless GI would let the player always have a certain ammount of frames no matter which move was used but just guard gives, as we all know different frames depending on the attack due to it´s recovery. Old GI-system would be a huge advantage for Asta in generell.

Xiba can pressure Asta with 6BK and 6AK alone. JGing it allows for grabs.

You can also do bullrush armor or just try to GI... And I don´t know how much frames you get by using just guard. It doesn´t give you much if it doesn´t allow for i17 attacks.

 

[Slade]

Meterless GI would let the player always have a certain ammount of frames no matter which move was used but just guard gives, as we all know different frames depending on the attack due to it´s recovery. I call that a huge advantage for Asta and in generell.

The thing about GI is that it was only balanced in the same way communism provides equality: everyone gets to share in having absolutely nothing. GI merely compounded most problems it was seemingly meant to solve (I can provide examples that illustrate this if necessary). JG, on the other hand, has just enough risk attached to keep it sane, without rendering it useless. This allows it to be adapted to fit different characters and playstyles. I suspect that if meterless GI were to be refactored so as to not trip over its own shoelaces, it would end up resembling JG anyway.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

Comparing old GI-system to communism is... Well interesting to say the least. Never looked at it that way.

But still, that GI-system was still better for balancing than the current system or just guard. And i prefer a balanced slighty "boring" game over a game which offers too many individual game characteristics.

 

[Withvees]

Meterless GI would let the player always have a certain ammount of frames no matter which move was used but just guard gives, as we all know different frames depending on the attack due to it´s recovery. Old GI-system would be a huge advantage for Asta in generell.



You can also do bullrush armor or just try to GI... And I don´t know how much frames you get by using just guard. It doesn´t give you much if it doesn´t allow for i17 attacks.

6B on JG is -19 and 6BK on JG is -20. Free grab attempt. Any variation of 6A on JG is worse. Totally safe against asta on block. It's crippling if you don't use JG

 

[Slade]

Comparing old GI-system to communism is... Well interesting to say the least. Never looked at it that way.

Don't read too deeply into it.

But still, that GI-system was still better for balancing than the current system or just guard. And i prefer a balanced slighty "boring" game over a game which offers too many individual game characteristics.

Again, the point is that balance alone does not justify the inclusion of a flashy but useless mechanic. Bringing GI back in its useless state would add nothing but a precedent by which any number of useless mechanics could be introduced.

Pong is a perfectly balanced game, but its number of useful mechanics is exactly one.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

6B on JG is -19 and 6BK on JG is -20. Free grab attempt. Any variation of 6A on JG is worse. Totally safe against asta on block. It's crippling if you don't use JG

I know that those moves can give Asta trouble. Even if I do not use JG I still had never really trouble against a Xiba player afaik...

Again, the point is that balance alone does not justify the inclusion of a flashy but useless mechanic. Bringing GI back in its useless state would add nothing but a precedent by which any number of useless mechanics could be introduced.

Pong is a perfectly balanced game, but its number of useful mechanics is exactly one.

You really think old GI was useless? It was certainly not that effectiv... But useless?

 

[Slade]

You really think old GI was useless? It was certainly not that effectiv... But useless?

"Useless" may be hyperbolic, but there are sound reasons for why GI went unused in these games.

SC1 and SC2 suffered from many of the same issues in regards to GI. The movement in those games was off the charts, knockdowns meant virtually nothing, and the number of situations where GI is preferable to stepping could be counted on one hand. That's not even getting into 2G.

In SC4, I estimate that more than half the cast had aGIs that could be used to counter moves like Amy 66A, and these aGIs guaranteed damage. Outside of countering these types of reactable but otherwise unavoidable moves, GI served little purpose. Plus there was the clusterfuck that was the perfect impact system. Although ironically SC4 is the only one to have a bug-free GI implementation.

 

[HydroJames]

"Useless" may be hyperbolic, but there are sound reasons for why GI went unused in these games.

SC1 and SC2 suffered from many of the same issues in regards to GI. The movement in those games was off the charts, knockdowns meant virtually nothing, and the number of situations where GI is preferable to stepping could be counted on one hand. That's not even getting into 2G.

In SC4, I estimate that more than half the cast had aGIs that could be used to counter moves like Amy 66A, and these aGIs guaranteed damage. Outside of countering these types of reactable but otherwise unavoidable moves, GI served little purpose. Plus there was the clusterfuck that was the perfect impact system. Although ironically SC4 is the only one to have a bug-free GI implementation.

What about SC3? ...and what is SC3's VC?

 

[Slade]

What about SC3? ...and what is SC3's VC?

didn't play it lel ¯\_( ᐛ )_/¯