Looking at the Major Changes of SCV Positively

ThatDarnNinja

[08] Mercenary
When I said that guard burst is a comeback mechanic, I meant that you could be down in health, get a burst on the opponent and land a nice combo.

The same is true for wall combo's, RO's, JG-punishes, and the buildup of meter from getting your ass kicked.

So say you're down in health, you land a throw that results in a RO, so according you SLDE, just because you positioned yourself correctly and chose the correct grab, that makes it not a comeback mechanic? Having a comeback mechanic doesn't mean there's a brainless way to implement it. Same is true for wall combo's, it's all about position, and meter management.

Wall combo's in general are way overboard and in some cases you get half life or more for a single BE, depending on which character.

In that sense, all comeback mechanics require some good read or a solid decision. I'm not understanding why that negates it being such.
ROs and wall combos are not comeback mechanics just because they do a lot of damage.

> "just because you positioned yourself correctly and chose the correct grab"
That means the opponent didn't position better and didn't break the correct grab. You're playing better and deserve the advantage.

> "Wall combo's in general are way overboard and in some cases you get half life or more for a single BE, depending on which character."
Maybe some characters are a little overboard, but some characters also rely on intelligent positioning and use of wall combos. Look at Leixia, her damage output is amongst the lowest, but her wall combos and other tools give her a good advantage if played right.

> "In that sense, all comeback mechanics require some good read or a solid decision. I'm not understanding why that negates it being such."
Because you're playing the game correctly? You're doing better than the other opponent? This is like saying "dealing 240 points of damage to the opponent is a comeback mechanic even though it requires good decisions".

SCV has no comeback mechanics, it just has mechanics. Even the free bar of meter doesn't count since it happens between rounds. There is no momentum shift and both players have a guaranteed chance to make use of it. Look at MvC's X-factor; you get dunked and have just your level 3 x-factor Wesker, now you can go ahead and ToD everyone on the enemy's team in 5 seconds from one unseeable mixup each.
 

Xyerith

SPHERECUCK
I'd like to address one thing you @Jimbonator mentioned. You listed Tira's 22B (I'm going to assume you mean GS) as a broke move if it was available without the 10 frame delay. 22B's primary purpose is to force a guard break situation on the opponent while they are recovering from a fall. The move is far too short ranged and bad on whiff to be used for anything else. So it wouldn't broken as a wake up GB option if the delay was gone, but the removal of the delay would make the move broken for a different purpose.

If the 10 frame delay was gone it'd find a new home in her combos. Things such as 3B>4K>22B>666B, 4B:B:B>2A+B>22B>666B, CH 2A+B>4K>22B>666B are now all combos and each should deal within 100-110 damage. These combos can also opt to end with 22B over 666B, making these combos deal the same damage as their real world counterparts minus the almost guaranteed JS transition. Other things such as 4K>22B>666B (which would likely be an i12 90 damage punisher) or 22A>4K>22B>666B may be possible, but I can't confirm it with the current system design. I'm not even going bother putting out the meter gain numbers, or going into detail about how retarded 22A mixups would become, just know they'd be retarded.

The reason I bring this up is to address another point about the design choice. New combos will now exist within the game if the delay was removed. I listed one character who became insanely more powerful if the change was removed. I'd imagine Viola and Maxi would likely be within this same boat. I like the choice because it allows the game to introduce unique moves that can be a little over-powered but give a different form of risk that isn't exactly block or whiff punish related without hindering the balance of the character too much.

The sidestep change not allows for balance among the cast but also helps to highlight the uniqueness between the members int eh roster in my opinion. It allows many characters to now have a reason to sidestep without the exact intention to whiff punish but rather to access a move that isn't normally available to them. Side stepping is now both an offensive and defensive mechanic that some characters now must make use of in order to compete. It's a small change but one I do like, also Apat not abiding by this change is stupid.
 

CaptainHook

[10] Knight
Having multiple ways of dealing massive damage all count towards comeback mechanics.

It's simply too easy to turn the tide IMO. Combo's do too much damage, jg is too easy (for the reward), guard burst happens too often, wall position isn't that difficult to achieve.

Arguing over the internet isn't really my style. People always misquote you, take things out of context, or want you to elaborate on something because they're too stupid to read between the lines.

Free bar of meter is NOT a comeback mechanic? Really? I'm not even gonna waste my time trying to explain to people who just don't get it. I have better things to do with my time.

I said everything I wanted to say in my first post and I stand by it. Peace out
 

Sett

[14] Master
My personal opinion on the game is everything is fine except CE and JG.

To me CE's are just Yoshimitsu's 6B BE that do a lot of damage and make you invulnerable. I think I'd prefer them to be like MK9 Xray moves in execution since I believe that can be punched out of it. (edit: nvm they get armor too.)

For JG it doesn't really make much sense that the easiest moves to JG are the most punishable, and I don't like it that you can be punished so severely by landing one. I think it would be better if when you land a JG you enter a tiny attack throw thing (kinda like a Tekken Chicken) that always put you at like +8 advantage so you get a free mix up or something, or if you're a long range character it could be gtfo me button that sends them a fair distance away from you.

Just my shit opinion on that with zero knowledge on the repercussions of such things. :sc4amy1:


Hooks post make my eyes bleed though
 

Jimbonator

[14] Master
Having multiple ways of dealing massive damage all count towards comeback mechanics.
I don't understand what this means other than, hitting your opponent in all these ways count as comeback mechanics. Although I will say a few characters in this game have bonkers damage, but I do not think how that fits as a comeback mechanic is a really sound argument.

It's simply too easy to turn the tide IMO. Combo's do too much damage, jg is too easy (for the reward), guard burst happens too often, wall position isn't that difficult to achieve.
Some combos do yes.
JG is simple to do but there are multiple ways to discourage it such as slower attacks, using lows, or cheap as hell throws.
Bursts do not happen terribly often but the game is going to the point where peppering your opponent into the red by the final round is what is good. See Party wolf, partisan, xeph, etc. And even then the may not even get a break because A) Player is blocking with their face a lot or B) Their defense and subsequent offense circumvents that.
Against skilled players, it is a battle to get the premium wall position as players do a tug of war to maintain the advantage, its a really fun battle to watch honestly and gives you an idea what kind of player you are up against. I think your problem is that you fight too many terrible players and do not grasp the details of high level play as a result. Slade made great points to your first post though.

Debate is encouraged in this thread and just being indignant and not responding to the well put together retorts to your initial posts is not a good image when you come in with such strong and frankly, controversial opinions.


For JG it doesn't really make much sense that the easiest moves to JG are the most punishable
Please expand.
 

Sett

[14] Master
Please expand.
Big slow moves that damage guard tend to leave the JGer at a huge advantage but are the most easiest to JG. Therefore making the move worthless on your move list against a strong player. You're rewarded less for performing a harder JG on things poke and jab, even though your advantage is still good, providing what you JGed isn't a string. I don't think you should be getting launchers off of a JG either way.

Think my idea of JG was basically a normal GI from previous games lol.
 

ThatDarnNinja

[08] Mercenary
A real comeback mechanic is something that artificially shifts momentum in favor of a losing player (and can only be applied to a losing player). These sorts of mechanics often do not allow much counterplay and can often shift momentum so hard that the other player may not have the chance to make use of their comeback mechanic should they fall behind. MvC X-factor, SF Ultra combos, and to a degree DoA Power Blows are good examples of this. They only become available once the player loses most of their health (except x-factor which just becomes stronger). They also offer enough damage and utility to easily allow one player to deal 50% or more in one good maneuver. These are different from ringouts and the extra meter because these do not allow real counterplay, and they can potentially be used in a way that prevents the other player from using their mechanic. Ringouts can be done at any time by any player, and the free meter is guaranteed to both players with no artificial momentum shift (unless you already have full meter, in which case it is probably your fault).

Since I feel like I've been repeating myself this whole time, I'm going to focus on the individual 'comeback mechanics' in other games in detail.

MvC X-Factor - Can be hit-confirmed into ToD combos, level 3 XF lasts more than long enough to ToD the whole team, user gets a free unseeable mixup on the enemy's switch in which could prevent the opponent from ever getting to use their own XF.

SF Ultra combos - Simply adds a large chunk of damage to the end of most combos, or offers high utility which can shift momentum in a huge way (like Rose's orbs or Decapre's fireball).

DoA Power Blow - This one is a little weird since it is probably the most powerful (critical burst > power blow > stage hazard can easily do over 50%) but it also does allow a degree of counterplay since bursts are more predictable and raw PBs are easy to react to, hence why I said "to a degree" earlier. Since it is only available to players with low health and it's successful use can easily KO the opponent and deny their own PB, it still has the potential to be a more comeback oriented mechanic rather than, you know, a simple mechanic.

Soul Calibur - Let's see, ringouts offer obvious counterplay and are available to both players at all times (ditto for wall combos). Free bar of meter is guaranteed to both players and doesn't create momentum until the player has already taken the lead naturally. Guard breaks only occur if you already have a large momentum going, so if anything those are the opposite of comeback mechanics.

Again, I'm repeating myself because there really isn't much else to say.
 

Not a Peacock

[09] Warrior
ThatDarnNinja said:
Again, I'm repeating myself because there really isn't much else to say.
Because certain individuals cannot grasp what you're saying. They'd rather gripe about petty, non existential problems that only affect them than look at the game as a whole.
 

Xyerith

SPHERECUCK
Big slow moves that damage guard tend to leave the JGer at a huge advantage but are the most easiest to JG. Therefore making the move worthless on your move list against a strong player. You're rewarded less for performing a harder JG on things poke and jab, even though your advantage is still good, providing what you JGed isn't a string. I don't think you should be getting launchers off of a JG either way.

Think my idea of JG was basically a normal GI from previous games lol.
Much of that boils down to how JG works, the nature of Slow/Fast moves and the actual game engine itself. JG just gives you the full block stun as punishment. The longer block stun also makes a move more unsafe on whiff. So AAs and BBs would make sense to be safer on whiff because they are short ranged and are more likely to miss the opponent.

Explaining slow moves being more unsafe also makes sense to some degree. Slower moves often have plenty of active frames, so even though they're easier to whiff punish, the move may occasionally have so many active frames that the player attempting to whiff punish can get hit as a result. The active frames are as such, added to the guard stun. Slower moves often knockdown as well, giving the player oki. In order to add the animation of the opponent falling down, some of which occurs during the recovering process, they gave the move a longer blockstun. Adding to that, It likely prevents combos from occurring after the move has been successfully used without taking away from the Oki.

I'd imagine that there were probably some attempts to iron it out, but adding or subtracting frames from the block stun just for a little more balance may have not been possible or would have been very glitchy with the system's current engine and probably not worth their time. The game already has some weird glitches from JG just with the 5 or so added frames that "pause" the game in order to perform the blue flash.

The other option was to rework the moves being used, but that would be a mess. Many of the move animations for SCV and the code for them come from SC4, SC3, etc... so the programmers would likely shy away from trying to completely rework older moves for the sake of a barely noticeable change to balance.
 

Slade

[14] Master
Having multiple ways of dealing massive damage all count towards comeback mechanics.
It's simply too easy to turn the tide IMO. Combo's do too much damage, jg is too easy (for the reward), guard burst happens too often, wall position isn't that difficult to achieve.
Arguing over the internet isn't really my style. People always misquote you, take things out of context, or want you to elaborate on something because they're too stupid to read between the lines.
Free bar of meter is NOT a comeback mechanic? Really? I'm not even gonna waste my time trying to explain to people who just don't get it. I have better things to do with my time.
I said everything I wanted to say in my first post and I stand by it. Peace out
Did you not read the OP? The second sentence explicitly states that debate is not only allowed, but encouraged. If you read that and came in here to soapbox regardless, then you can take your "better things to do with my time" and shove it where the rest of your opinions come from.

And no, people do not "always misquote you" and "take things out of context". This is your own failure to articulate and defend your view. As for "[wanting] you to elaborate on something because they're too stupid to read between the lines": fuck that. It's your argument, not mine, and I am not in any way obligated to make it for you.

No one is entitled to having his opinion taken at face value. If you have neither the intention to defend nor concede some point in a thread like this, then don't even bother wasting other people's times with it.



With that out of the way,
Big slow moves that damage guard tend to leave the JGer at a huge advantage but are the most easiest to JG. Therefore making the move worthless on your move list against a strong player. You're rewarded less for performing a harder JG on things poke and jab, even though your advantage is still good, providing what you JGed isn't a string. I don't think you should be getting launchers off of a JG either way.
Think my idea of JG was basically a normal GI from previous games lol.
OS JG has to be accounted for. It's precisely for the reasons you stated that the most commonly JGed moves in high level play are the fast, safe pokes.

With a few exceptions, slow moves (to the tune of i30 or slower) are no more adversely affected by JG than by the movement, crouching, jumping, or counter hit mechanics present in previous SC games. They've always been terrible.

There is, however, some interesting interplay between moves in the i20-i29ish range and JG (such as Pyrrha Omega's 4B, Patroklos' 1B and 66B, Mitsurugi's 236[B], Algol's 44B, Raphael's 66A+B, and so on). In addition to being useful in okizeme, guard pressure, and post-GI, they can serve as a foil to excessive use of OS JG. I'd argue that SCV has made these moves the most useful they've ever been.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
It seems that even after all this time all of this time some of you do not understand what JG does to the game. JG, especially the "safe-JG" or "JGG" where you tap G and then press and hold it so there's no opening, is a key part of the puzzle, and if you for whatever reason don't use it often, you are not playing the game right. Not using JG is like not moving often. It's not some footnote, it completely changes the game. The question is never whether you should JG, it's when.

Every time you are hit out of movement in the non-neutral game, it is from a move that could have safe-JG'd and punished hard. Movement catching attacks are usually very punishable on JG (-17), especially moves that would catch backstep, so almost any character can get something decent. That of course includes AA which can be ducked after the first hit and BB whose second hit can be GI'd. And you usually can't JG both because the safe-JG, which again is tapping G and then holding G, triggers a cooldown and so is only good for one JG, but anything else is dangerous, leaving you open to big launchers in the i19-i24 range. JGing 2As gives you +9 or something big while being up close -- that's a free mid/throw mixup that they can't move away from.

For this reason, safe-JG or other JG OSes are integral parts of the reverse mixup. Start JGing after everything and they will have to start delaying attacks or running up and throwing (you are spacing correctly, aren't you?). So ask yourself, what if I start moving again once they're trained to delay their attacks? Oh hey, it worked, it's a fucking miracle!

JG opens up the unsafe movement that some people complain about. When JGs are a threat and players space decently well and know how to move, suddenly people move a lot and don't attack at advantage, encouraging playing the neutral game the same way that safe movement would have. The only difference is you can't do minor adjustments and guard afterward (you can make adjustments -- as long as its to space your attacks correctly) and players have to guess between attacks at disadvantage, movement, or just guard OSes. It also encourages and adds to the close-neutral game, where neither player is at advantage up close, and players fight for the initiative, predicting when attacks will start and go for close counter hits, or will wait to see where someone is guarding and act accordingly. These timing mixups can be ran seemlessly with a JG input as a part of an option select. Many players do employ these strategies, and in my opinion it's a lot more active and exciting than the previous games!

Using JG in the neutral game is a bit less common, but again, it's important to use it, primarily as a replacement for just-in-time guarding. By that I mean moving and guarding on reaction to an attack that's coming. But any time you start guarding, you can JGG, and it's perfectly safe! So, you can land seemingly random JGs for moves that are intended to catch your slick single-tap movement. However, if you are using quick single tap movement, you can't guard unless you're dashing forward, so you must choose between 8WR, which you can guard out of no problem as long as you didn't start it 20 or so frames ago. Once again, unsafe movement startup and JG adds interesting choices and possible strategies.

You should also now see that JG is an amazing defensive option, which should silence any complaints about the game being too offensive.

JG adds so much depth to the game and resolves many complaints. And I could go on about what you can do with it and what dynamic it creates, this post only covers the most important parts of it, things that most of you didn't mention. Best of all, the Just Guard mechanic takes skill to master, rewarding consistent execution, game knowledge, and ability to read the opponent, in a game that is otherwise very easy to play. I would be really upset if JG is not in SC6.
 

Withvees

[10] Knight
It seems that even after all this time all of this time some of you do not understand what JG does to the game. JG, especially the "safe-JG" or "JGG" where you tap G and then press and hold it so there's no opening, is a key part of the puzzle, and if you for whatever reason don't use it often, you are not playing the game right. Not using JG is like not moving often. It's not some footnote, it completely changes the game. The question is never whether you should JG, it's when.

Every time you are hit out of movement in the non-neutral game, it is from a move that could have safe-JG'd and punished hard. Movement catching attacks are usually very punishable on JG (-17), especially moves that would catch backstep, so almost any character can get something decent. That of course includes AA which can be ducked after the first hit and BB whose second hit can be GI'd. And you usually can't JG both because the safe-JG, which again is tapping G and then holding G, triggers a cooldown and so is only good for one JG, but anything else is dangerous, leaving you open to big launchers in the i19-i24 range. JGing 2As gives you +9 or something big while being up close -- that's a free mid/throw mixup that they can't move away from.

For this reason, safe-JG or other JG OSes are integral parts of the reverse mixup. Start JGing after everything and they will have to start delaying attacks or running up and throwing (you are spacing correctly, aren't you?). So ask yourself, what if I start moving again once they're trained to delay their attacks? Oh hey, it worked, it's a fucking miracle!

JG opens up the unsafe movement that some people complain about. When JGs are a threat and players space decently well and know how to move, suddenly people move a lot and don't attack at advantage, encouraging playing the neutral game the same way that safe movement would have. The only difference is you can't do minor adjustments and guard afterward (you can make adjustments -- as long as its to space your attacks correctly) and players have to guess between attacks at disadvantage, movement, or just guard OSes. It also encourages and adds to the close-neutral game, where neither player is at advantage up close, and players fight for the initiative, predicting when attacks will start and go for close counter hits, or will wait to see where someone is guarding and act accordingly. These timing mixups can be ran seemlessly with a JG input as a part of an option select. Many players do employ these strategies, and in my opinion it's a lot more active and exciting than the previous games!

Using JG in the neutral game is a bit less common, but again, it's important to use it, primarily as a replacement for just-in-time guarding. By that I mean moving and guarding on reaction to an attack that's coming. But any time you start guarding, you can JGG, and it's perfectly safe! So, you can land seemingly random JGs for moves that are intended to catch your slick single-tap movement. However, if you are using quick single tap movement, you can't guard unless you're dashing forward, so you must choose between 8WR, which you can guard out of no problem as long as you didn't start it 20 or so frames ago. Once again, unsafe movement startup and JG adds interesting choices and possible strategies.

You should also now see that JG is an amazing defensive option, which should silence any complaints about the game being too offensive.

JG adds so much depth to the game and resolves many complaints. And I could go on about what you can do with it and what dynamic it creates, this post only covers the most important parts of it, things that most of you didn't mention. Best of all, the Just Guard mechanic takes skill to master, rewarding consistent execution, game knowledge, and ability to read the opponent, in a game that is otherwise very easy to play. I would be really upset if JG is not in SC6.
MASTER SIGNIA DROPPIN KNOWLEDGE
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
D
And no, people do not "always misquote you" and "take things out of context". This is your own failure to articulate and defend your view. As for "[wanting] you to elaborate on something because they're too stupid to read between the lines": fuck that. It's your argument, not mine, and I am not in any way obligated to make it for you.

No one is entitled to having his opinion taken at face value. If you have neither the intention to defend nor concede some point in a thread like this, then don't even bother wasting other people's times with it.
Why you so merciless? Now its unlikely he'll return and attempt to defend his points.

I like more whiff specific animations, (thinking taki's PO B on whiff) would be pretty cool
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
I still do not see the overall positive benefits of just guard. In the end it´s in the game so I had to deal with it. But playing a Character like Asta makes JG not usefull in generell. So maybe that has something to do with my "hatred" for this mechanic.
 

Slade

[14] Master
For the players who use it.. Yeah it does. But for the SC-franchise and other mechanics... I do not see it. SoulCalibur had an interesting actively defensive option besides guard and step and that is Guard Impact!
SCV has Guard Impacts.