Talim is almost as bad as SC4 ver.

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Jaxel said:
Lol... in SC2, it was negative ON HIT.
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boooo

By the way, Talim's RE game is big damage. You just have to dodge instead of attack. All her dodges put her in Air Rage for the wind cannon punish.
sidestep vs B attacks? = Wind cannon
backstep vs K attacks? = Wind cannon
forward step vs A attacks? = wind cannon

You DO get a reverse launch if you hit B a second time when you guess right with B and she gets BT K or BT AAB as a juggle
 
Yeah. I've been doing RE 2/8 B a lot for that massive damage.

I don't quite know how to get damage off of Talim's launchers though... AAB or 4BB just don't seem to do enough damage.
 
Talim is synonymous with gambling. I played against a few people who knew to guard against the full AA strings but that doesn’t make her unviable. She is super unsafe but that just means you gotta keep the pressure game going.
I tend to go into 2/8B+K stance and mixup her AA series with AAK or AAB and once they start ducking throwing in a few BB
Will she be top tier? Probably not. I do think that she is in a better spot though.
 
So after playing her for about 18-19 hours total, I feel like at the moment Talim is ok as a character, but also feels... kinda incomplete in a way.

Pros:
+ She has the best mobility I've seen from her.
+ She can bait and get around opponent RE attempts pretty easily.
+ Wind cannon move is big damage and long range RO.
+ Her RE guessing game is actually good. Every successful dodge gives her a free cannon. One of the few characters who can ring you out on the first clash

+ Air Rage(Wind Fury) is very versatile once you get the feel for entering it and cancelling it reliably
+ 1B low seems plus or at least 0 on hit and hits grounded. This makes her Throw oki and 3B combo oki fairly solid

Cons:
- Nerfed RO game. 66K puts you in BT all the time now. So you can't really do 66K into 66B/6A+B for ROs. Also CH FC 3BB~AS A+B doesn't have the range it used to and I could never get it to RO.

- Still a tad too unsafe. Imo, moves like the new 3B, 22A (her old 33A), & BT B should be safe. (3A and 1A+B might also be unsafe, but I wasn't punished, so we'll see.)

- General movement buffs to backstep hurts her a bit
- Trouble punishing a few moves because of reach or pushback on block.
- Most of the Soul Charge buffs are duckable

Reversal Edge Cancelling:
This aspect is what I believe the devs created for her to deal with neutral game.
She can hold RE and cancel at pretty much anytime before the RE attack comes out. You can opt to go into any of her stances by pressing the appropriate direction.
This is big for her, because, unique to Talim, she can opt to cancel even after she's absorbed a bunch of hits. So when you're getting swung on from range you can absorb the move and get away, while also building meter for each swing you parry. This is a key part of playing her and helps to even things out a bit. It's pretty cheap in many situations, but also carries some risk to being hit post-cancel or by a GB string. Because she lacks range by design, this is actually an interesting way to address some of the issue with that.


As I mentioned, though, Talim feels sorta incomplete to me at the moment. They almost went out of their way to reduce the effectiveness of her usual tools.
For example, her 66A is now also 33_99A so that it's easier to use as a whiff punish. Granted, in Soul Charge you get nice damage off 66A~AAB as a whiff punish. But outside of soul charge 66A feels completely worthless. You don't get a KND, a RO, or a combo. I feel like this move should always KND on hit outside of Soul Charge and just keep the Soul Charge version the same, just like they did with SC2 44A vs 44AAA~236.

Her AR A (windleap A), only gives a full combo on CH. We can work with this since it's still heavy plus frames on hit, but it's tough to get used to in one weekend. When the game comes out this can be explored more.

Then there's her Windsault K hold. Or AS (K). Which is the jumpover reverse kick from SC4. This could use the most fixing, imo. It almost never even works now. The only times I could jump over the person's head was a specific combo, or if the opponent happened to use a certain type of TC move. So stuff like, say, FC 3BB on block into jumpover doesn't exist anymore. I'm honestly curious what she needs it for, since they clearly wanted Talim players to use 11_44_77B or her CE to TJ lows.

Which brings me to 44B. They made 11_77B also her 44B to allow you to do it without having to 8WR first. You can do it from crouching too. They gave a LH requirement for jumping lows with this move. They clearly want you to use it. But it doesn't always trigger the Lethal depending on the low you jumped. I've read 2As and it didn't Lethal. It didn't lethal vs Groh's stance spinning low either. Maybe we just don't fully grasp the requirement? In any case, sometimes it worked, sometimes not. If it DOES work though, you can combo into Wind cannon.

As for her "not having mids", I feel like she's not much worse off than before. She's kinda always played this way. She still has 6A+B & 44K (<-- SC2 66K). Still has Rising A. She has a new launcher in 3B. Her 3A is new and sucks people into it from farther away than you'd think. Her 66A+B (old 22B launcher) is a pretty good as a stance transition on block frame wise. Her 2A+B hold goes into AR, so maybe the frames are good there. The only moves I kind of miss are her old 44B as a power mid, and her 11KA just to have a longer ranged low while moving. BUT her new 1B is actually pretty good. If it is, in fact, plus on hit, then that'll be the new 11KA for me.

I think she could be ok. And I also know there's things that haven't been fleshed out fully. 2x Windsault still exists, so who knows how that will effect her stance game now. Frame data is important too. But I feel some tweaks could be made here and there to make her feel more complete and to give certain tools some actual use. Just how I see it, anyway.
 
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Well I had the most fun playing sc2 talim than I had playing anyone in any sc.

I only played sc6 talim for maybe 2 hours, but I agree with most of what's said above. I feel like the more people get used to her moves, what's punishable and her options, she will become less usefull.
 
Based off of my experience, Talim still seems like a heavy risk taking character; but this time it looks like there is actual reward. Maybe it was just me, but if you can read your opponent's high attacks and you land that 236B and have a CE that's a ton of damage. Same thing with her Air Rage B which does a good chunk of life but in competitive play will be hard to hit,

She has a ton of options, and I do think that she will make it to mid-tier but it's really too early to say. The main weakness I see in Talim is the lack of "safe options" that she has. That doesn't mean she's unviable, a lot of characters lack safety. For me, it means that I need to have a secondary to cover the weak aspects of Talim.

I love the pressure, in your face, stance to stance gameplay. But that gameplay does come at a price.
 
Darkmoonlight said:
The main weakness I see in Talim is the lack of "safe options" that she has. That doesn't mean she's unviable, a lot of characters lack safety. For me, it means that I need to have a secondary to cover the weak aspects of Talim.
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Actually, needing to have a secondary is the definition of unviable, lol
 
Also to answer @thinkingofaname 's question of "what is Talim supposed to be?", I always felt like she's the type of character to be built on getting around your opponent's options. She gets in pressures and then plays counter-offensively to keep her advantage. This is almost the perfect version of Talim in that style, but, like I said, I'd like to see those minor things adjusted to flesh out her tools a bit more.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
She can hold RE and cancel at pretty much anytime before the RE attack comes out. You can opt to go into any of her stances by pressing the appropriate direction.
This is big for her, because, unique to Talim, she can opt to cancel even after she's absorbed a bunch of hits. So when you're getting swung on from range you can absorb the move and get away, while also building meter for each swing you parry. This is a key part of playing her and helps to even things out a bit.
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Oh snap, I didn't realize you could cancel RE even after absorbing a hit. That would've been useful against a few nightmares I faced...
And by few I mean several dozen
 
I've mained Talim since Soul Calibur IV, and I was only able to play the demo for a little while. Not sure how I feel about her. A lot of the tools that I used, either don't exist anymore or that I wasn't able to figure it out. He RO game though is... : (

I was using her CE as an evasive movement option as it puts her in the air, it's helped be dodge some really powerful low attacks. Not only that but to cover some distance and get closer to the opponent. I've noticed that once they see it coming, the initial reaction is to guard. And the final hit sometimes gets them if they're too impatient.

Her SCIV 7A 8A 9A, does that still exist?
4A, A where its a mid and then a low?
Her Wind Charmer grab feels like it has less range.
The Wind Sault Special K where you like go over them and kick them, that's gone too?
Does she have anything similar to her SCIV 1B?
I can't remember if the SCIV 4 Wind Sault A, was previously a guaranteed stun. But in 6, it's only during counter hit?

And by far I think the most difficult match up I had was with IVY, it's a given obviously. There were a few times where I had no other option other than Wind Sault K and fall on my back just to get close. Especially facing a very experienced Ivy, you can't stay still.
 
I saw a video of Aris (well known tekken player) he was streaming playing with voldo, and he fought a Talim who CE when he was on the ground, he said he was staying on the ground (as in didn't tech) and he got OTG from the second hit of the Ce to the full animation. He was very salty about it :P
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Also to answer @thinkingofaname 's question of "what is Talim supposed to be?", I always felt like she's the type of character to be built on getting around your opponent's options. She gets in pressures and then plays counter-offensively to keep her advantage. This is almost the perfect version of Talim in that style, but, like I said, I'd like to see those minor things adjusted to flesh out her tools a bit more.
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For a counter offensive style, she is missing a crap load of aGIs. All her aGI option from SC2 back-stance are gone. I have 0 clue why it was removed, yet characters like Kilik/Sophy get them every game, even though they can zone perfectly while Talim need to be point blank. So many characters get aGI super, its a HUGE blow to Talim because there is literally nothing you can do about it. The string heavy nature of Talim makes it almost impossible not get hit by it, even throws get GIed from those supers (horror bad design). Even when you bait it, its still safe on block. If you try to bait it hard, the opponent can just backdash and use ranged options to poke you for free knowing you can't commit to anything.


Darkmoonlight said:
Based off of my experience, Talim still seems like a heavy risk taking character; but this time it looks like there is actual reward. Maybe it was just me, but if you can read your opponent's high attacks and you land that 236B and have a CE that's a ton of damage. Same thing with her Air Rage B which does a good chunk of life but in competitive play will be hard to hit,

She has a ton of options, and I do think that she will make it to mid-tier but it's really too early to say. The main weakness I see in Talim is the lack of "safe options" that she has. That doesn't mean she's unviable, a lot of characters lack safety. For me, it means that I need to have a secondary to cover the weak aspects of Talim.

I love the pressure, in your face, stance to stance gameplay. But that gameplay does come at a price.
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What is the reward you are talking about? High risk high reward require good mix ups. Good mix up are things like launcher / unbreakable tracking throw (aka what Ivy has). Even though both options are unsafe if blocked/ducked, they do massive damage + knockdown if they hit, and its a true 50/50 with no option select. Its even better when Ivy is near the edge, because she can RO you with a mid, so you pretty much has to eat the throw.

What mix up does Talim have? All her wind stance can be back-dash blocked, and punished if blocked. Those lows have no follow up anymore, just 25ish damage with +frame. I feel you are not playing real opponents who know how to play SC. Against online randoms, you can "pressure" with her strings+ stances. Against people who knows how to play SC and no lag, every one of those strings will get punished or put you in a extremely unfavorable position. Talim is absolutely not a viable pressure character, outside of lag + newbie. Her greatest tools in real tourney is just literally AA/BB/11KA/Throw, plus CH fishing. Occasionally 6B+K B/A mix up if you know your opponent is staying still. Compare to the amount of tools other character gained and universal changes to back-dash, I feel Talim is gonna get worse and worse as all the gimmick stuff get exposed.

If they want Talim to be viable while keeping the current "Style", then EVERYTHING she has need to be safe, like EVERYTHING. NONE of her moves give you advantage/special property/damage/mixup to justify being unsafe. Things like Stab/iGDR are unsafe because they are combination of fastest mids with the highest range and damage potential. Things like Kilik's Asura dance is unsafe because its a tech jump + mid GI + damage, the best move there is. Talim's moves do not have anywhere even close to 50% of their power, yet she is unsafe? WHY? Even if she is safe on everything she is still mid tier because range alone will kill her chance of being top, and she lack high damage lows/throws ... but as she stands now I see no future as a tournament character.
 
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thinkingofaname said:
For a counter offensive style, she is missing a crap load of aGIs. All her aGI option from SC2 back-stance are gone. I have 0 clue why it was removed, yet characters like Kilik/Sophy get them every game, even though they can zone perfectly while Talim need to be point blank. So many characters get aGI super, its a HUGE blow to Talim because there is literally nothing you can do about it. The string heavy nature of Talim makes it almost impossible not get hit by it, even throws get GIed from those supers (horror bad design). Even when you bait it, its still safe on block. If you try to bait it hard, the opponent can just backdash and use ranged options to poke you for free knowing you can't commit to anything.
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I do think she could use ONE aGI from BT. (Like her BT B+K from SC2, the other isn't needed, imo), She does have an aGI in Wind Fury stance (B+K) if you don't press anything. (It aGIs Horizontal Highs and Mids I believe), But that aGI is kind of iffy vs strings since she does a twirl away animation instead of the normal GI deflect.

The rest of what you wrote has nothing to do with Talim at all. It's more to do with the current design of the CEs in general. I personally hate that many CEs aren't more unsafe on block, but that is a separate discussion. If you're Talim, though, the counter-offense is about dodging as opposed to powering through stuff. The RE cancels are also very big in this sense, and I really believe when we get to lab this stuff that feature will make a lot of things more clear.


thinkingofaname said:
What is the reward you are talking about? High risk high reward require good mix ups. Good mix up are things like launcher / unbreakable tracking throw (aka what Ivy has). Even though both options are unsafe if blocked/ducked, they do massive damage + knockdown if they hit, and its a true 50/50 with no option select. Its even better when Ivy is near the edge, because she can RO you with a mid, so you pretty much has to eat the throw.

What mix up does Talim have? All her wind stance can be back-dash blocked, and punished if blocked. Those lows have no follow up anymore, just 25ish damage with +frame. I feel you are not playing real opponents who know how to play SC. Against online randoms, you can "pressure" with her strings+ stances. Against people who knows how to play SC and no lag, every one of those strings will get punished or put you in a extremely unfavorable position. Talim is absolutely not a viable pressure character, outside of lag + newbie. Her greatest tools in real tourney is just literally AA/BB/11KA/Throw, plus CH fishing. Occasionally 6B+K B/A mix up if you know your opponent is staying still. Compare to the amount of tools other character gained and universal changes to back-dash, I feel Talim is gonna get worse and worse as all the gimmick stuff get exposed.

If they want Talim to be viable while keeping the current "Style", then EVERYTHING she has need to be safe, like EVERYTHING. NONE of her moves give you advantage/special property/damage/mixup to justify being unsafe. Things like Stab/iGDR are unsafe because they are combination of fastest mids with the highest range and damage potential. Things like Kilik's Asura dance is unsafe because its a tech jump + mid GI + damage, the best move there is. Talim's moves do not have anywhere even close to 50% of their power, yet she is unsafe? WHY? Even if she is safe on everything she is still mid tier because range alone will kill her chance of being top, and she lack high damage lows/throws ... but as she stands now I see no future as a tournament character.
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Once again, I agree with some of your points, then you go into tangents that don't really relate.

I agree she should get some more followups off her lows in stance. I think they played it a bit too safe with the reward for her stance lows, because her wind cannon is BIG damage. But yes, her WF A low doesn't really grant too much on NH. It's designed that way on purpose I believe. It DOES combo into FC 3BB on step counter though.

Windsault A is great on grounded hit, but standing hit doesn't give much advantage either. Still have to test what she gets off CH Windsault A. Online mode isn't the best place for that kind of thing. And I already mentioned in my earlier post that she's still a bit unsafe on things that she really needs, like her BT B and her 3B for instance.

We don't know ALL the frame data for her on block or transitions though. So that fact alone means we DON'T know how viable her pressure is.
We don't know how fast her empty WC or Windsault stances are.
We don't know how good her Guard damage is.
We don't know what setups she can use to counter opponent's strings. Maybe there's places to stick the B+K aGI and hit them with wind cannon.
Her anti Reversal Edge/GI game is silly.
Her RE cancels are powerful yet HIGHLY untested.
Her mobility can create whiffs better now than ever before. And I've been playing her for years.

I'm just saying, try to give some of this stuff more of a chance, especially her RE stuff, before you abandon ship.
 
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Yeah Talim's gonna be the RE queen. Can cancel out of her own, and seems to eat opponents who try to RE for breakfast. I'm hoping WC out of any of her evasive moves will be able to cleanly dodge the RE strike. Happens with 22A against RE in this vid
edit: also it looks like wind sault A+B out of an RE'd 66A stuffs the RE strike, seen here
 
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tkainfinite said:
I've mained Talim since Soul Calibur IV, and I was only able to play the demo for a little while. Not sure how I feel about her. A lot of the tools that I used, either don't exist anymore or that I wasn't able to figure it out. He RO game though is... : (

I was using her CE as an evasive movement option as it puts her in the air, it's helped be dodge some really powerful low attacks. Not only that but to cover some distance and get closer to the opponent. I've noticed that once they see it coming, the initial reaction is to guard. And the final hit sometimes gets them if they're too impatient.

Her SCIV 7A 8A 9A, does that still exist?
4A, A where its a mid and then a low?
Her Wind Charmer grab feels like it has less range.
The Wind Sault Special K where you like go over them and kick them, that's gone too?
Does she have anything similar to her SCIV 1B?
I can't remember if the SCIV 4 Wind Sault A, was previously a guaranteed stun. But in 6, it's only during counter hit?

And by far I think the most difficult match up I had was with IVY, it's a given obviously. There were a few times where I had no other option other than Wind Sault K and fall on my back just to get close. Especially facing a very experienced Ivy, you can't stay still.
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- SC4 Jump A no longer exists. It's now her SC2 "While Landing" A.
- 4A doesn't have a low ender anymore. Only the mid.
- Wind Charmer grab range is kinda the same, but the speed is slower I think. It's also unbreakable if you land it.
- If you mean her SC4 Windsault A+K it's still there. The new input is Windsault (K) hold.
- Her old 1B is gone. BUT her new 1B is a good low.
- Windsault A or Windleap A? Your last question confused me.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
- SC4 Jump A no longer exists. It's now her SC2 "While Landing" A.
- 4A doesn't have a low ender anymore. Only the mid.
- Wind Charmer grab range is kinda the same, but the speed is slower I think. It's also unbreakable if you land it.
- If you mean her SC4 Windsault A+K it's still there. The new input is Windsault (K) hold.
- Her old 1B is gone. BUT her new 1B is a good low.
- Windsault A or Windleap A? Your last question confused me.
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Thanks for the reply. I'll have to check it out once the game comes out.

Ahh, hold K now. Got it. Have you run into any videos with that (I have yet to see it in gameplay)? And has it's usage changed or can it sill be used in a combo?

Yes, sorry I'm rusty with the terms. Windleap A which is the one where you jump back?

Almost forgot to ask about her unblockable. I know that you can do the 214B if I recall correctly in VI. Is the fire punch now locked into having to do a Windleap? I used to use it as a movement option where I would initiate the attack then cancel it.
 
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