Ban Hilde

[RiBu]

But Soulcalibur IV isn't in arcades. It's a console game, with online play, not a fucking arcade game. It comes with button binds already set, and it allows you to customize them. The game is used on consoles that come with pads, not arcade sticks. Nobody fucking cares about you and fucking ability to flawlessly press multiple buttons at the same time, because I've repeatedly been told that a fucking toddler can simultaneously press buttons on an arcade stick. Unless you want to buy me an arcade stick, I suggest you get with the times and forget your arcade bullshit.

Everyone knows the best MvC2 players are toddlers. . .

 

[The_Realyst]

Mailboxarson - That is a pretty dumb arguement to make. 2D games don't come with sticks and have online play. Sticks sold seperatly aside from bundles which cost extra. Should they not use sticks either? Really what you're basically saying is that everyone should use pad so they will be able to compete and if you want to use stick, there's something wrong with you and you need to get with the times. Hey, I guess if you can't button map with sticks, you shouldn't use them right? Or better yet, don't use Hilde? Seriously??? Try to think a little more broader then that dude. Though I personally don't think you should be allowed to map anything at all, I do recognize that its in the game as a default setting so that says something. Again, my problem is having multiple buttons mapped for the same single input (also A+K and B+K because that would fix anything). When stick players hold a button to charge, they don't get to still use that button which is the case on pad with this sort of mapping. Again..., I use pad... (4 buttons only, no shoulders... holla!!!) lmao

 

[Runis]

0:13 - C2BB, C2AA combo. Did not ring out.
0:22 - C3B, 44K, C2BB combo. Ceirnian delays the C2BB too late and whiffs. Would have rung out.
0:34 - C2BB, C2AA combo. Successful ring out.
Note the life Aris was on though before this happens.
1:11 - C3B combo. Ceirnian did not attempt any followups. Likely too off-axis to ring out.
Off axis
1:14 - Missed doom combo opportunity. 1A blocked rather than jumped into C3A, C2BB, C2AA. Would not have rung out.
1A can be jumped into a C3B Combo from my findings.
1:17 - C3A combo. Unable to ringout because Ceirnian had a C3B rather than a C2B ready. Would have rung out.
Dropping charges mid fight is not easy to do because you have to think 7 moves ahead to plan it.
1:38 - C3B, 44K combo. Did not ringout. C3B, B+K, C2BB, C2AA would have rung out backwards.
From what I can see, it was off axis, and quite often, off axis B+K will whiff.
1:57 - C3B, 44K combo. Did not ringout, as Ceirnian did not finish the combo. Whole combo would have rung out.
whole combo would have wall splatted, but true, he didn't pull it off.
2:04 - C3B, 44K combo. Did not ringout, as Ceirnian mistakenly did C1B rather than C2B. Would have rung out.
2:07 - C3A, C2BB, C2AA combo. Successful ring out.
Again, look at how much damage was done BEFORE RO.
2:21 - C3A. Unable to complete combo because Ceirnian had a C3B rather than C2B. Would not have rung out.
2:29 - C3B, 44K combo. Did not ringout, C3A whiffed. Cassandra is one of the harder characters to land the C3A on. Would have rung out.
The C3A whiffed because of STAR WARS WALLS!
2:37 - C3A. Did not complete combo, would not have rung out.
again, the combo would have splatted on a wall, not RO.
2:56 - C3A combo. Successful ring out.
Only some of the poor RO game characters would not have an option that could RO on CH from this distance.
3:59 - C3A, C22B, C2AA. Ring out.
4:19 - C3B, 44K combo. Successful ring out.
4:52 - C3A combo. No ring out.
6:07 - FC C2B, 44K combo. Successful ring out.
6:22 - C3A, C2BB, C2AA combo. Successful ring out.

0:31 - C3A combo. No ring out.
0:48 - C3B, 44K combo. No ring out.
1:06 - FC C2B, 44K combo. No ring out.
1:28 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Blocked 1A rather than jumping into a C2BB, C3A, C2BB, C2AA combo. Would not have rung out.
1:33 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Would not have rung out however.
1:54 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
2:13 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
2:22 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Would not have rung out.
2:34 - C3A combo. Would not have rung out.
3:15 - C3A combo. Rung out.
3:35 - C3A combo. Rung out.
3:52 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
4:14 - C3B combo. Did not ring out.
4:38 - C3A combo. Rung out.
Look at HP. 2 more hits would have killed anyway.
4:53 - C3B combo. Rung out.
5:13 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Should have done C3A rather than C3B. Would not have rung out.
Jumping negates C3B, C3A would have pushed out further but not combo-able considering the charges carried.
5:24 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
5:52 - C2BB, C2AA combo. Did not ring out.
6:04 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
6:43 - C3B, 44K combo. Rung out.
At that distance, almost any character has RO potential

0:46 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
0:58 - C3B, 44K combo. Rung out.
At that distance, almost any character has RO potential
1:19 - C2BB, C3A combo. Rung out.
At that distance, almost any character has RO potential.
1:31 - FC C2B, 44K combo. Rung out.
1:57 - C3A combo. Did not ring out.
2:40 - C3B combo. Would have rung out, Ceirnian missed the entire combo.
2:52 - C3B combo. Would not have rung out.
3:23 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Aris whiffed. C3B, B+K, C2BB, C2AA would have rung out.
3:28 - CH FC C3AKB, 44K combo. Did not ring out. CH FC C3AKB, B+K, C2BB, C2AA would have rung out.
Actually, if he had not kicked Aris again, aris would have been glitched into the stage for Cedric to charge up C3B and RO him like that. But that's a stage glitch.
3:33 - CH FC C3AKB, 44K combo. Did not ring out, as Ceirnian missed part of the combo. Would have rung out.
CH FC C3AKB 44K Combo is one of the hardest combo's to time and land.
3:57 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Should have done C3A instead. Would not have rung out.
4:10 - Missed doom combo opportunity. Could have jumped into a C3A. Would not have rung out.
4:30 - FC C2B, 44K combo. Rung out.
5:01 - Possible missed doom combo opportunity. CH FC C3AKB would have rung out, FC C2B might have been an option. Not sure what level of charge Ceirnian had at this point.
CH FC C3AKB does NOT tech crouch from what I can tell. landing the CH means you've interrupted because of frame advantage, not because you're ducking...
5:26 - C2BB combo. Did not ring out.
6:14 - C2BB combo. Rung out.
6:33 - C3B combo. Did not ring out.
7:00 - C2BB combo. Did not ring out.
7:19 - C2BB combo. Rung out.

Now take a look at all of those, and consider how many of those were player error that would have resulted in a ring out. Then take a look at those, and consider how many of them would have rung out on Wolfkrone Monument, or the Raft, or the Garden, or numerous other stages. The stages those were played on were actually very friendly to Aris, as the moving walls on SW stage often stops Hilde combos, and the other stage is very large and has pillar support.

I agree though, quite a few of the "Did not RO", was due to the stages either being large or obnoxious.
Just pointing out a few other factors you didn't note. other people can theorycraft some responses if you want. this is after all, just theory fighter here.

 

[Ceirnian]

Realyst, I can use A+B and if done correctly I can use that to do both B and A charges, depending on which charge takes priority in it's weird little way.

Just because you use 4 buttons only, no shoulders doesn't mean much at all. People play with what they prefer and you are not manly because you use that type of setting to play. Also stick users can and do button map / bind so it's not like pad is the only way to do this.

Also with that stage glitch, if I was not under pressure and reacting so fast I would have not thrown out that 2k. I think my mind assumed the pillar stopped him from going out, and right when I pressed 2k I mentally kicked myself. Instead I should have just backed away and let the time run out while I was taunting. The opponent in that state is stuck on the ground and unable to move until I hit them. It's a glitch that happens rarely, but sometimes it does and can lead to some laughter.

 

[Hayate]

Banning button binding is like nothing compare to the unbalance of her combos.

The major problem is those combo and relaunch, i can't imagine that Namco actually created Hilde to do such RO combos. The better proof of that, is that she have a special one move created for her combo : B+K, too bad it's miss a lots ...

 

[ShadowFox]

It's a glitch that happens rarely, but sometimes it does and can lead to some laughter.

This was done to me this past weekend. I'm sure KDZ can confirm this.

 

[Organous]

Banning binding will make it more difficult for some people to play their characters at 100%, but it doesn't mean it won't be done. Let it mature long enough, and people will develop the muscle memory and other habits they need to play just like they did pre-binding. If there is a pre-programmed method of doing something in a game, somebody is going care enough to find a way to do it consistently.

Execution of button commands isn't going to solve any problem. The core of the issue has to be resolved within Hilde herself. Ban, patch, or ignore. Those are really the only usable options.

 

[BlackDragon37]

The basic mechanics of the character are broken. If you whiff once, you either eat 100+ damage if your back is facing a wall, or you eat a ring out. Guaranteed. What other fighting game has something like this? Even in Tekken, getting punished means a large percentage of your life, but you can still come right back. With Hilde, however, one AND ONLY ONE mistake is all that is required for you to LOSE THE WHOLE ROUND.

If she is allowed to stay while unpatched, she will be the death knell to competitive play. She engenders a negative gameplay experience, especially for the one playing against her but even so for those just watching. Who would want to play this game after seeing something that they and even tournament pros would consider "bullshit"?


With the power of YouTube, word about Hilde will spread fast and far, so that's why I made this topic. As a community we have to come together on a consensus to nip this in the bud, lest it become SCIV's Variable Cancel. Everything else about the game is fun.

Except Hilde.

Ban Hilde.

The only thing that needs patching is the C2 A. Or is it C3 A? The one which aGI's mids and gives +3 on block. That's about it.

 

[Ooofmatic]

Also with that stage glitch, if I was not under pressure and reacting so fast I would have not thrown out that 2k. I think my mind assumed the pillar stopped him from going out, and right when I pressed 2k I mentally kicked myself. Instead I should have just backed away and let the time run out while I was taunting. The opponent in that state is stuck on the ground and unable to move until I hit them. It's a glitch that happens rarely, but sometimes it does and can lead to some laughter.

That glitch is awesome. When it happens you can actually move them around anywhere you want on the stage by running into them.

 

[kittianinja]

lol the tags r awesome.

 

[A_Bad_Idea]

Out of curiosity Ceirnian, do you play pad or stick? This whole argument seems to have stemmed from your matches, so I'm just curious as to which is your preference. This would also shed some light on the "ban button binding" nonsense that refuses to die.

 

[Valei]

In effort to save my favorite character and to help the community I’ve spent some time brainstorming on a possible solution to the Hilde Doom Combo Crisis.

First of I would like to say Shen Yuan’s post about binding vs. non binding Hilde is 100 percent TRUTH! I play Hilde with no binds and I can tell you right now throws are a serious threat especially coming from Astaroth. To put this in effect we need to agree on a Binding Clause. Simply note that the Binding Clause is in effect under the rules of any tournament and have a description.

Ex: Binding Clause: All participants using Hilde are allowed ONLY 4 face buttons.

Secondly I believe that we can PROPERLY ban 44K from the doom combo. Why 44K? 44K shortens the range of the combo considerably and removes the ability for C2BB to re-launch. Also removing 44K does not compromise the Hilde players charging. When you remove 44K the best combo coming of C3B is C3A, C2BB, C2AA. Yes it still rings out, and yes it’s still pretty strong but the distance covered is almost halved! Naturally removing 44K will also remove the doom combo from WRC2B.

Ex: 44K Clause: The use of 44K within any of Hilde’s air combos will result in a round loss for the user.

An Alternate solution would be to only allow ONE REPETITION of each charge move in a combo. So C3B, 44K, C2BB, C3A, if you use another C2BB here you LOSE THE ROUND! Only one repetition of the move is allowed.

Ex: Charge Repetition Clause: Multiple repetitions of same level charge moves in a single combo will result in a round loss for the user.

Personally I think it’s much easier to regulate the 44K Clause but we could put all 3 of them in effect just to be safe.

This is what I believe to be the best solution to the Doom Combo Crisis. These rules are can be implemented rather easily and I sure the best Hilde players would agree to these rules before seeing there character banned for good! It’s a small adjustment that should hold us off until the next patch.

What do you all think of that? Hilde players input would be greatly appreciated! Hilde Haters input would also be appreciated!

Please don’t Ban Hilde!

 

[Runis]

Cedric, when that glitch happens, not only can you back away and laugh, you can listen to the infinite number of glitchy beating noises as the stage crushes all their armor off.

 

[LunarAura]

Valei, that's fair if every Hilde player gets that memo. Now it's too late to be fair. I know that if I had certain combos down to muscle memory, I'd be right pissed if it was suddenly banned.

 

[Ceirnian]

Binding: no, it would have to be a 100% across the board thing. Not just an anti-hilde thing.

Partial combo stuff: Maybe if this was unblockable and unavoidable I could see this, but by that point a real character ban would be more reasonable. Her C2bb relaunch isn't infinite, at most you get 2 reps and maybe more if your opponent keeps teching. It would extremely hard to implement, what if I want to throw out a c2bb tech trap and I miss time it and accidently relaunch?

Can someone tell me why this thread is still around? Seriously guys, who else is playing Hilde and winning besides a few of us? DFG can you please come in here and say something? This ban happy community is getting real old real fast. Learn how to deal with this stuff and maybe a few months down the line (or even a year who knows) people will play against her much better. Cable did not break MVC2 and now he's not even the best. This is just a thread full of whiners who are use to getting their way from the start, with Algol getting chopped down for absolutely no good reason.

If the game is so bad that Hilde dominates the entire tournament scene then that's the time to start talking about a ban. Wait it out till a patch, who knows maybe she'll be so nerfed that she will end up being near useless then.

Or hey, since she's so easy to use and so ridiculously powerful all you people can pick her up and then win tournaments.

 

[Runis]

Valei one problem with your solution of banning the 44K is that 44K alters the combo% modifier.
Ever notice how C3A C2BB C2AA does LESS damage than 44K C2BB C2AA? and by less I mean, CONSIDERABLY less. each hit of the C2BB and C2AA is subject to 10% modifier, which means each hit only does 1 damage, where as the 44K combo has a different modifier which does more than 1 damage per hit. removing 44K not only changes how far it rings out but also SUBSTANTIALLY reduces the damage.

Just putting it out there.

 

[The_Realyst]

Realyst, I can use A+B and if done correctly I can use that to do both B and A charges, depending on which charge takes priority in it's weird little way.

Just because you use 4 buttons only, no shoulders doesn't mean much at all. People play with what they prefer and you are not manly because you use that type of setting to play. Also stick users can and do button map / bind so it's not like pad is the only way to do this.

Again, for the third time I will say that even though I personally don't think you should be allowed to map anything at all, I do recognize that its in the game as a default setting. So if this is your preference, then fine. Though I don't agree, I believe it is overall, a fair concept. Again, for the third time, my problem is having multiple buttons mapped for the same single input or whatever input or inputs that allows people to hold a button down, then break throws with that same button or do regular attacks with that same button because they have it mapped twice. I didn't say I was manly for not using shoulders, it was a joke. Hence the "lmao" after saying holla. I know this is your character we are talking about, but relax. Also, I would love to see a stick Hilde player map buttons and be as effective as a Hilde pad player. I'd also like to see that players hands while he or she is doing this. I'm sorry but I just don't see how a stick player can be AS effective with Hilde.

I use to uses shoulder buttons as well when I first entered the competitive gaming scene. But then I realize that most tournaments did not allow shoulder button mapping so I learned to play with out them. (I'm originally a Tekken player) So I've been on both sides of the fence at one point or another.

I say play Hilde, play her on whatever stage you want, keep the so called "DOOM" combo. Just don't allow Hilde players to use multiple inputs for the same button. I don't see how this is NOT a fair thing. And again, any changes that are made should be made after nationals.

Peace out.

 

[Organous]

Maybe I feel particularly good against Hilde because I'm an Astaroth main. :p I hear Astaroth's her biggest threat. I suppose that makes my opinion less valid on her, but even if making a single mistake is going to cost me the game and I don't have that handicap, I would still play regardless. Astaroth vs. Hilde may not be the most exciting thing to watch, but the tension between us is plenty entertaining by itself.

 

[tribaL]

thank god this topic got so much discussion. how could i possibly change my avatar if people didn't think something wasn't broken?

i miss the good old days when 236b was broken. that avatar was sweet!

 

[Orionics]

Valei, that's fair if every Hilde player gets that memo. Now it's too late to be fair. I know that if I had certain combos down to muscle memory, I'd be right pissed if it was suddenly banned.

if a new combo came out that did more damage gave better wakes or rung out further, would you learn it? if you lost a round for using a move, would you stop using it? answer yes. just retrain your muscles.

it's not like its sudden either you'd have until nationals ends to retrain.