Raph confirmed as SCV Nightmare :D

I was sorta thinking the same thing. What I think what happened was, the reason Tira didn't reappear again with Pattycakes and Pyrrha whas because she had gone to retrieve Nightmare's body. It could be Raphael at this point, but I think not. Then, Tira dragged him aaaall the way back to Ortheinsburg (no idea whatsoever how to spell that lol) and that is why Raph wakes up in a ratty dungeon and such. At least, that's what I think.

Interesting. It's a possibility but I'm unsure as to why Tira would want to lug that 'faker's' body thousand of miles back to Ostrheinsburg (idk how to spell it either lol).

This is for Raph fans. Badass vampire Raph is still around. Don't worry so much whether he is NM. The NM in SC6 will not be him and he will be just Raph again.

About being top prisoner: It's not like people knew Raph's true face. He wore a mask as Graf Dumas and wore different clothes. If they knew he was actually Raphael, I could only imagine how people would react to seeing the former head of the Sorel family (I've heard the Sorel family was arrrested).

This are just a random thoughts. Maybe NM/Graf Dumas was thrown into the abyss by Zwei and didn't die from the fall right away. Raph might have woke up and crawled out of the broken azure armor (reminiscent of his encounter with NM seventeen years ago where he has to drag his wounded back back home) but died when his strength left him. Since he was separated from the armor, people would not have identified him as Dumas and just casually put in a cell, assuming he was one of Dumas's servants.

I guess it's possible that people don't recognize him as Dumas if he ditched the armor and mask. (He left that place nekked? (>*_*)? Lol, jk. He wears dark brown undershirt and pants underneath it.)

Anyway, assuming that if Raph's story took place AFTER that battle. It meant the story continued onward after SC and SE was destroyed by the greek siblings. This is shocking and different from all the other SC games since SC and SE face off and one or another or both is destroyed at the end. If SCV continued the story after the two blades, then that is very very strange.

I'm not very interested in the Raph=Dumas argument anymore. All the points have been listed from both sides and there's really not much more to say. What I'm interested is the another theory related to the Raph=Dumas theory. (Yes, it's a theory based on a theory... theory).

Addressed to those who believes that Raph is Dumas. What are your opinions on Raph and Dumas existing as separate consciousness? It's not something crazy like Voldomort existing in several forms inside his horcruxes, but there's something similar I'm leaning towards. So any opinions is appreciated before I talk more about this idea of mine.
 
Interesting. It's a possibility but I'm unsure as to why Tira would want to lug that 'faker's' body thousand of miles back to Ostrheinsburg (idk how to spell it either lol).
Idk maybe she was bored lol. Or I guess maybe he woke up in a prison cell, but that doesn't explain why it wasn't high security.

OH! Something just came to me! Maybe Raphael didn't wake up in Ostrheinsburg Castle...... but Denever Castle! It would make sense! Maybe Tira dragged him in there for some hidden reason or something. Or, maybe when Zwei saw him he dragged him and put him in jail. Or something lol
 
Another point to consider: I checked the wiki and we can confirm that Raph does come into conflict with Voldo in SCV. That's why he has the victory line "Now guardian, be gone!" This could hint at the Raph-Dumas connection but it could also simply refer to the fact that Voldo guards the money pit.
 
Another point to consider: I checked the wiki and we can confirm that Raph does come into conflict with Voldo in SCV. That's why he has the victory line "Now guardian, be gone!" This could hint at the Raph-Dumas connection but it could also simply refer to the fact that Voldo guards the money pit.

Voldo is no more at Money Pit
Voldo was at MP when he was serving Verrci, now that he's serving Night he's probably with him in his castle
And what is Voldo job? Guardian
Maybe the guardian of a cell. Wait, effectively Voldo's stage in SCV is a cell
And where wake up Raph? In a cell

So probably Voldo was Raph's guardian, and SCV stage cell was where Raph was prisoned :D
 
What are your opinions on Raph and Dumas existing as separate consciousness?

In SCV we have

Pyrrah ---> OmegaPyrrah. Wich is Pyrrah with red glowing eyes, monster SE right arm and mutated voice (same actor)
Raphael ---> Nightmare. Wich is Raphael with red glowing eyes, monster SE right arm and mutated voice (same actor)

Only difference is that "Nightmare" have that lil mask wich is ClarkKent-level camouflage (with mod videos showing Raph behind it)

That's the thing

From here i don't want try to predict wich story they will invent to explain it on detail, i can wait SC6 :D
 
Another point to consider: I checked the wiki and we can confirm that Raph does come into conflict with Voldo in SCV. That's why he has the victory line "Now guardian, be gone!" This could hint at the Raph-Dumas connection but it could also simply refer to the fact that Voldo guards the money pit.

I believe the wiki assumes that based on their dialogue of that line, not because of any story reason. I, personally, will take that with a grain of salt.

--Forgon
 
I take all this speculation with a grain of salt. I don't see any convincing argument here other than Raphs head is under NMs helmet. I think it's every bit as likely that it was just a placeholder until they could model the real Graf Dumas' head, then Namco came in and said we want whatever you got, NOW, and they just shipped it that way.
 
I take all this speculation with a grain of salt. I don't see any convincing argument here other than Raphs head is under NMs helmet. I think it's every bit as likely that it was just a placeholder until they could model the real Graf Dumas' head, then Namco came in and said we want whatever you got, NOW, and they just shipped it that way.
So why would it be Raph's head and model and not a CAS's head and model, especially since the parts are CAS parts aren't they?
 
For the same reason it's not Ivy's head, or Pat's, or Mitsurugi's. PS just went eenie, meenie, miney, moe, and their finger landed on Raph. That's my spec, and I think it's just as likely as any of these complicated theories.
 
For the same reason it's not Ivy's head, or Pat's, or Mitsurugi's. PS just went eenie, meenie, miney, moe, and their finger landed on Raph. That's my spec, and I think it's just as likely as any of these complicated theories.

Aside that

Ivy was'nt infected by SE
Pat was'nt infected by SE
Mitsu was'nt infected by SE

Raphael was
Raphael was infected by SE (SC2) in a way very similar to how Sieg (aka the previous Nightmare body) was
 
XDDDDDDDDDDD im die with this...is very obvius, but we have people who cant see it XDDD

Those damn camouflage glasses

Lois (who pass every fucking entire day with Clark) "Thank you Suppaman!"
*Superman put glasses*
Lois "zomg where is end up Suppaman? Clark,did you see him?"
Clark "No"
trollface.jpg



If SCV Night 2p was with a "Hey guys, i'm Raph!" signboard on the chest...

...people of 8wr will still say "ehhh, not valid argument. The signboard say Raph, not Raphael" :D
 
For the same reason it's not Ivy's head, or Pat's, or Mitsurugi's. PS just went eenie, meenie, miney, moe, and their finger landed on Raph. That's my spec, and I think it's just as likely as any of these complicated theories.

My issue is that it is not just that, its a lot of factors including that. There comes a point when the little hints and coincidences start to become an apparent purpose.

For instance, why does Raphael have an interaction with Voldo, Nightmare's guardian, then also has an interaction with Viola, who looks strongly similar to Amy, who then also shares an interaction with Nightmare despite the fact neither Viola nor Amy show any past interaction with Nightmare who then shares many similarities with Raphael including height, hair, and (according to game models) face.

A theory, in scientific terms, is a rationalization formed from a hypothesis that is backed by a strong amount of evidence but cannot be proven, no matter how obvious (as a result, much of science is theory but is acted on and assumed as fact by the general population). Nothing about our theory is "complicated" in my opinion: Raphael=Nightmare.

Now, our speculation based on the above theory does range from simple to complicated: How Raphael became Nightmare. There are a lot of different ideas and hypotheses on how Raphael=Nightmare occurred, and a lot of them are complicated (including mine). However, its far more realistic and likely given the amount of evidence for the earlier, Raphael=Nightmare theory than that they got lazy. You could argue that if that was the only coincidence and that all other evidence was based on that one coincidence, but its a lot more that the game either directly or indirectly gives us.

--Forgon
 
In SCV we have

Pyrrah ---> OmegaPyrrah. Wich is Pyrrah with red glowing eyes, monster SE right arm and mutated voice (same actor)
Raphael ---> Nightmare. Wich is Raphael with red glowing eyes, monster SE right arm and mutated voice (same actor)

Only difference is that "Nightmare" have that lil mask wich is ClarkKent-level camouflage (with mod videos showing Raph behind it)

That's the thing

From here i don't want try to predict wich story they will invent to explain it on detail, i can wait SC6 :D
I have my reasons for believing that Raphael and Nightmare exists as two different entities instead of being similar to Alpha pat and Omega Pyrrha lol. Course, it's all speculations and what not but the points do keep me entertained and speculating something different.

1)Raphael died. Hisaharu Tago stated that happened during the events of SCIV. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-20-raphael-confirmed-for-soulcalibur-5
2)His art render shows smoke coming from his feet. That is either just a neat way of portraying his teleport ability or else it makes one thinks that he's more spiritlike. (OR.... he has athletes foot.)
3)Most believe that Nightmare becomes Raph after he was defeated by Zwei. But this is a very shaky prediction, even if it makes sense. After Nightmare's defeat, Pat and Pyrrha destroyed SE and SC. That signifies the end. You can't continue the story about the soul swords if they're gone.
4)Based on the description in his profile, I speculate he may have awaken in Ostrheinsburg. There's a strong possibly he might have made it there in SCIV and based on the tower thing with Amy, he could have even made it to Algol's tower before he died.

I theorized that when he died in SCIV, his body was then used as Soul Edge's next vessel. Soul Edge was able to use the dead body but this time was different. Previous hosts were used alive and SE controlled them like some kind of parasite until they went insane. Dumas may have lasted this long since SE adapted to the remnants left behind such as personality, memories and manners while his real soul has left the body so there's no conflict between one's soul and the sword's soul.

And perhaps that's why Soul Edge relied on its previous host's fighting style since Raphael's unique style is gone along with his soul. Raphael may have come back since he's bound to his love for Amy so he didn't move on. Strange that of all the malfested, only his age was revealed. Even Ivy's is no longer revealed. This to me, seems to imply that time stopped when he died seventeen years ago and it has finally resumed now that he's back. It's also coincidental he returned when Viola's memories started to come back to her. (Ghosts are scary).

As to how a ghost/spirit/soul can obtain a physical body, I don't know. The SC universe is crazy. Powers of malfestation or the will? Materialization? Like Hisaharu Tago said, "How is he back? Why is he back? That will be a mystery for fans to solve."

So I don't think it's as simple as Nighty becoming Raph again once he was defeated. I'm still trying to form a more conclusive theory in the meantime. Which is driving me crazy since 3/4 of the story is out there and it's taunting me (>P____P) DLC, where are you...

Edit: The mystery is the past. We don't know how he died and where he died. If we knew, it'd be a very solid point of evidence with this theory of mine.
 

Wow, great post. Very logical explanation. Actually, Cervantes is also a malfested who's age is revealed and was resurrected from the soul edge shards in his body. In SCV, he obtained a new body but lost all of his memories. Raphael, on the other hand, has his soul and body separated and therefore does not have his mind completely possessed by soul edge. Thus he remembers Amy and his past when he awakens. Raphael has at least one shard (stolen from Cassandra) and with the cursed energy in his body, he could have been resurrected in a similar manner (he still needs to bite people to absorb essence and can sense their link to the two swords).

P.S. You're awesome. Mwah :)
 
In that case we are not of two different opinion :D

Only point i make is simple: actual Night/Graf Dumas IS Raph (alive, dead, crazy, gay, emo, happy, sad,ghost...but is him)

From this point we can made 764 theories about WHY and HOW (lol,mine even include Zasalamel)

I just laugh at ones that with all these evidences that show straight Raph being the new Night, still are on the "eh, not valid argument. imho Graf Dumas it's Li Long and Bangoo son and my theory is good as yours!" boat


Another thing at some point they even said that originally Raph (rapier version) was supposed to not be in, but he was added being a fan fav/very requested style (lol they killed yet enough unique styles in this fucking cast)

Example in SC1 there is Sieg
As story Sieg in SC1 should not even be in,but is there (happy, SC1 Sieg as chara design was probably the best Sieg ever)
They just wanted him to be there and they not even given an explanation

THis time i suppose they have in mind some story to justify it, but the thing is... it's not that important, it's just a fight game :D
 
Yeah they might have put him in just for his move list and didn't actually finalize the storyline yet. LOL nice job working hard namco. No wonder why they said they almost duplicated the Raph from SC4. He could have been so much better if they put in more effort (cough cough).
 
Lol true true Gatsu. I agree with the theory that Raph=Nighty and it just bores me since it's so obvious. Now, I'm turning my attention to the hows and whys. They could have added Raph in just for the style but didn't PS say that the whole story would include every single character? I'll have to re-find the link but it's due to time constraint, that the 1/4 only showed a few people from the cast so I believe that they have a story in mind for Raph.

I agree with you Fendante. Can't believe they didn't put more time into such a great style for Raphael. Makes me so sad (>T_T)
Oh, and I think Cervy Beard's age was revealed since he got a new body while Raph kept his old one. Not sure though lol.
 
It's hax. Just about every smartass, loudmouthed scrub on XBL that has some vague comprehension of how to play has SCIV Nightmare & Siegfried as well as fiery Cervantes. Wiping the floor with that kind of player is one of the rare times a one-sided match feels gratifying, I think. I still have one or two leave lobbies as soon as they see me even as bad as I am >:D
 
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