SkatanMilla
[08] Mercenary
Judge Jackson deems infinites meaningless in a tierlist
1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)
- Thread starter RTD
- Start date
- Status
Judge Jackson deems infinites meaningless in a tierlist
Hmm, well my reasoning here is Talim has basically got what the old Mitsurugi used to have, which is two fast combo stuns, one high and one low, in addition to the standard assortment. Since the old Mitsurugi was considered top tier I'm considering his amalgam in this game, Talim, to be Tier 1. In addition I played a mean level 100 talim so...props to that dude for showing me ground control Talim and oh yeah a 7-hit-combo is generally considered the ill-nasty when at the end your opponent's at your feet and you have advantage again. I won't even go into the fact that a turnaround is the initiate to that combo...she benefits from getting turned around.
Nightmare's leap is now insane, apparently people haven't been breaking A+B against you or you would instantly consider Nightmare top tier. Unblockable...even though you can perfect parry it what are your chances when THAT is your defensive strategy?
Kilik and Seung Mina received a significant buff in that their poke actually hits every hit, and as combo-friendly characters with super-amazing dodges and parry-counterhits with consistent execution of Just Frames they are easily top tier. If not using their Just Frames you're really not playing against those characters...might as well be a computer... One other nicety is that swords go through their legs, around them, can magically penetrate their chest and not hurt them, they are truly "magical" characters because swords don't effect them. THAT would be the true reason they get to be top tier.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Amy beats the sisters... yoshi probably does too... anyone that puts Lizzy, Asta, and Kilik in front of Yoshimitsu is insane.... or they haven't played a good yosh :)
Nuez
[09] Warrior
praying this is true...
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
How many tourneys have the sisters won so far?? I know Amy has won three.... soo yea your prayers might not be needed...
Ravariel
[08] Mercenary
Well, how long did it take Ivy to start taking tourneys in SC2? I remember when it was "X or go home, noone else can win". Sure, Amy seems awesome now, while she's new and she has some weapons, I'd hesitate to put her ahead of known commodities like the Sisters.
pixel09
[09] Warrior
I really don't see Amy holding top spot for long. Her weak range coupled with her weak tracking is hurting her a lot more than I thought. It could be my weaknesses as a player, but I've fought with these weaknesses before and it never felt this hard to overcome.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
well really you could use that phrase both ways... if shes awesome now think what they will find out with her later... sure anything is changeable but Amy is dirty... just as dirty as the sisters yet people always put them before her... Cass isnt even with them this time around i dont think, but i have yet to play a really good Cass in SC4 so this could be why i think that... I've played lots of good sophs lots of good amys and amys consistently piss me off more than sophys but hey might just be what i prefer in a fight... that could be why i dont think shes top tier....
Windstar
[13] Hero
We're moving back into blanket statements regarding tiers. Let's try to discuss in detail why such and such is good or not.
Since we seem to be stuck on Amy. Let's try to detail why she is?
First off, all her decent pokes are safe. 33B is a launch and it's safe. 3BA is a mid-low natural combo. Most people seem to have trouble catching the low. Indeed a lot of Amy's lows don't telegraph well, making it hard to catch. Though the strength of her lows is questionable. I can see 1A and 2A+B being useful options, and they seem safe. But 1A the only real issue. Her 2A is a weird little spin, but seems punishable.
There's also her stances, which need to animate fully before anything further can be done. It's interesting that you can 236 into her spin from each stance, but you can 236 into any of the stances. This means she telegraphs pretty much exactly what she's going to do. While she does have aGIs on two of her stances (and the third simply hops), it doesn't appear the aGIs last the entire length of the animation. So looking at it, there are several options. If Amy enters stance, she could be punished during the length of the animation (making it really risky). If guessed wrong, she'll 236 into options such as throw, BBBBB, and others. Her stances into 236 don't seem too deadly. But I guess it could be argued that what she gets out of her stances tend to be her longest reaching moves. So against short-ranged characters she could stance relatively safely and then move into an attack that could reach her opponent.
I think another point of contention with Amy looks to be her linearity. At longer ranges, she can't track too well. But at close range, her optimal, this seems to be a non-issue. Amy's BBB doesn't seem exceptional compared to Raph's BB, and doesn't look quite as useful for punishing like Cass' BB. I also suspect that Amy would have trouble against characters with strong 8-way-runs and Yun-Seong and his CR as it can evade Bs the moment Yun shifts into stance.
Since we seem to be stuck on Amy. Let's try to detail why she is?
First off, all her decent pokes are safe. 33B is a launch and it's safe. 3BA is a mid-low natural combo. Most people seem to have trouble catching the low. Indeed a lot of Amy's lows don't telegraph well, making it hard to catch. Though the strength of her lows is questionable. I can see 1A and 2A+B being useful options, and they seem safe. But 1A the only real issue. Her 2A is a weird little spin, but seems punishable.
There's also her stances, which need to animate fully before anything further can be done. It's interesting that you can 236 into her spin from each stance, but you can 236 into any of the stances. This means she telegraphs pretty much exactly what she's going to do. While she does have aGIs on two of her stances (and the third simply hops), it doesn't appear the aGIs last the entire length of the animation. So looking at it, there are several options. If Amy enters stance, she could be punished during the length of the animation (making it really risky). If guessed wrong, she'll 236 into options such as throw, BBBBB, and others. Her stances into 236 don't seem too deadly. But I guess it could be argued that what she gets out of her stances tend to be her longest reaching moves. So against short-ranged characters she could stance relatively safely and then move into an attack that could reach her opponent.
I think another point of contention with Amy looks to be her linearity. At longer ranges, she can't track too well. But at close range, her optimal, this seems to be a non-issue. Amy's BBB doesn't seem exceptional compared to Raph's BB, and doesn't look quite as useful for punishing like Cass' BB. I also suspect that Amy would have trouble against characters with strong 8-way-runs and Yun-Seong and his CR as it can evade Bs the moment Yun shifts into stance.
Ravariel
[08] Mercenary
Well, there's also the situation with Cervy in 2... was considered Amazing Tier for a while, before people learned to deal with 3A (or was it 2A?), then fell. It's true that anything could happen, and that Amy is an annoying little ho-err... but don't underestimate the sisters. I, too have yet to play many Cassies, and none of them have been good. Until we have some more study on all of their frame data, as well as a better idea of setups and mixups, this is all a little premature, anyway. :P
pixel09
[09] Warrior
1A is -21 on block, 2A+B is safe, but easy to block as i28 frames is easily within grandpa reaction times to block. 2A is S-low and safe.
All her 236 options are unsafe except for 236K:A.
At long range she is weak to 8WR right and close range she is weak to 8WR left.
6BB - 8wr left or 1p 7_8_9
3B - 8wr right or 1p 7_8_9 (The follow up low does track, so be careful)
8WRA+B - 8wr right or 1p 1_2_3
66A - 8wr right or 1p 1_2_3
33B - 8wr left or 1p 7_8_9
The only good trustworthy anti-step move I've found for her is 3A which is short range even for her.
Please check her frame data and Amy vs which has fairly general Anti-Amy strats that any player can take something from it.
Sadrabbit
Team Serious
pixel09
[09] Warrior
3B just barely tracks 8WR left. It only tracks if the opponent is already walking, it's easily stepable in both directions. Should have noted that, my bad.
Cirex
[09] Warrior
It doesn't matter if 3b doesn't track, since it's safe, 'a' tracks lots, etc.
I think it's such a nice move overall.
Talim doesn't have the damage potential Mitsu had. I feel she lacks some more "punch", to say so.
Nightmare's A+B has very, very low range.
About Kilik, I haven't faced a single Kilik yet, so can't really tell. I don't know much about Seong-Mina neither.
I think it's such a nice move overall.
Talim doesn't have the damage potential Mitsu had. I feel she lacks some more "punch", to say so.
Nightmare's A+B has very, very low range.
About Kilik, I haven't faced a single Kilik yet, so can't really tell. I don't know much about Seong-Mina neither.
schabit
[09] Warrior
Well I play both Cassie and Sophie. I would have to say that without question, that not only is Sophie top tier, but she is better than Cassie. She can do everything Cassie can do, only better. Great punishment? Check. Great, safe pokes? Check. High damaging combos? Check. Great throw game? Check. Great Soul Gauge crushing? Check. Good mixups? Check? Useable unblockables? Check.
Really the only thing she doesn't have is a good low game and yet even that is better than Cassandra's. The only thing that Cassie has that's better imo is auto GI moves.
DarkWalker
[08] Mercenary
I would like to see more people giving their opinions on tiers as well as including their reasons, instead of just saying, "Here is who I like best." But then again, what are tiers but one's personal preferance?
ChaCha
[10] Knight
Tiers are a culmination of damage/safety/pressure/effectiveness, overall match ups, risk/reward- in comparison to the other characters. However, they are usually terribly skewed by bias, blind hatred for a certain style and lack of credible competition to test things on. As well as limited character representation in the local and regional community around them.
Tiers are presented to offer a scale of comparison between characters in an EVEN KEEL competative format, not representative of player skill/preferences with them.
I agree, tiers on a message board are an overall joke because of the bias and idiocy listed above. (Not saying I am even exempt from that comment)
my $0.02
cha cha
Tiers are presented to offer a scale of comparison between characters in an EVEN KEEL competative format, not representative of player skill/preferences with them.
I agree, tiers on a message board are an overall joke because of the bias and idiocy listed above. (Not saying I am even exempt from that comment)
my $0.02
cha cha
Cirex
[09] Warrior
Well, I think you need to play against good players in order to start seeing tiers. I'm afraid I can just speak about Mitsurugi, Hilde, Cervantes and Sophitia. I could talk about Maxi and Yun-Seoung, but I have no clue where to set them.
I really feel Cervantes and Sophitia are vastly better than Hilde. My own performance is an example of it. Cervantes is brutal, a bit unsafe, but he has many ways to play agressive, mixing up attacks from standing position or 8WR, very damaging juggles, enough launchers, strong punishers and many, many options from Dread Charge, including instant teleports and of course, the almighty iGDR.
Sophitia has very strong pokes, fast character overall, with very simple juggles, yet damaging (3b, 3a+b is like 61 damage, just some less points than a Hilde juggle that takes 7 seconds of charging, timing and a rival that is not sidestepping/WRing) and of course, punishers. Her mix-up game is great aswell, and I'm surprised at the damage caused by 1k. She also has 4b+k for soul crushing and a nice array of throws.
I really feel Cervantes and Sophitia are vastly better than Hilde. My own performance is an example of it. Cervantes is brutal, a bit unsafe, but he has many ways to play agressive, mixing up attacks from standing position or 8WR, very damaging juggles, enough launchers, strong punishers and many, many options from Dread Charge, including instant teleports and of course, the almighty iGDR.
Sophitia has very strong pokes, fast character overall, with very simple juggles, yet damaging (3b, 3a+b is like 61 damage, just some less points than a Hilde juggle that takes 7 seconds of charging, timing and a rival that is not sidestepping/WRing) and of course, punishers. Her mix-up game is great aswell, and I'm surprised at the damage caused by 1k. She also has 4b+k for soul crushing and a nice array of throws.
Ravariel
[08] Mercenary
Aside from these I have absolutely no argument about Sophie's tools... and even these I can't argue per se, I'm just wondering what makes for a "good" throw game and Useable unblockables. Sure, her safety and ability to get people guarding sets up the throws well (and actually puts her in range to get them off, unlike Killik for example), but are there some wakeup advantages I'm not seeing? Does A+G set up something I haven't seen yet? Usually people will come out of that blocking high, and eat 1A,A, but I don't expect people to fall for that forever...
And useable unblockables? WR[A+B] and 11_77A,[A] are the only two I can think of being actually useful, and both aren't for the unblockable property, rather their delayability. If this is what you meant then I completely agree... if not could you elaborate?
ChaCha
[10] Knight
that's 2 more useful unblockables than every other character (arguably). Her throw game is great because 66A+G is a hard break and easy to buffer out of her safe crap, and it opens up the game for B+G which leaves her at nice mid range dash in mix ups on wake. Her throw game isn't the best, but it's above average.
cha cha
cha cha
- Status