1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Nerf him all you like.... Yoshi is still top tier.... Just has to be in the right hands to truly show what hes capable of.... Mitsu is definitely not top tier... easy spam moves defintely dont make you top tier in high level as most people will eat/GI it up for breakfast... Amy, Ivy, Yoshi, Sophy.... those are your top tiers, with Taki moving up faster and faster each version. Cant believe anyone hasnt mentioned taki much after 1.03 shes defintely dirty now... and one of the stronger characters in the game...
 
SuicideBubbles said:
Raph simply because i think as other characters slowly get weakened he will stay very similar after this first patch. Also its not like he wasn't already almost A tier.
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Wow. Are you living under a rock or something?

The ONLY reason he was ever thought of as close to A tier was because of his uber-tracking B,B, which he no longer has.

I find it amazing that the rest of your top-tier list can sound so reasonable and then you throw Raph up there when there's ZERO chance that he belongs there. Try and argue it if you like. I'm sure we could all use a laugh.
 
I am way too much of a noob to contribute to tier discussion, so instead I'm going to ask a question.

Why is it that Yun Seong ranks so low for everybody? I had a decent run on Live earlier (going 54 and 7) only to log on a couple hours ago and have a considerably less impressive showing (going 28 and 23). Anyhow, I fought Yun Seong three times today, and lost to Yun Seong three times. And they were *ass* whoopings. 10+ hit combo juggles that hit me for insane damage that by and large I couldn't stop once they were initiated.

Don't get me wrong, if you guys say he ranks low then I'm assuming there's a good reason, I'm just curious as to what it is.
 
Sporko said:
I am way too much of a noob to contribute to tier discussion, so instead I'm going to ask a question.

Why is it that Yun Seong ranks so low for everybody? I had a decent run on Live earlier (going 54 and 7) only to log on a couple hours ago and have a considerably less impressive showing (going 28 and 23). Anyhow, I fought Yun Seong three times today, and lost to Yun Seong three times. And they were *ass* whoopings. 10+ hit combo juggles that hit me for insane damage that by and large I couldn't stop once they were initiated.

Don't get me wrong, if you guys say he ranks low then I'm assuming there's a good reason, I'm just curious as to what it is.
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Well, you can't base tiers offline, first of all. It doesn't matter what record you have online, offline is the way to go. Find some friends in your local Regional Matchfinder and meet up offline. Yun Sung is good and anybody who tells you he's "low" tier has no idea what he's talking about. Yunsung is great at damage, and Critical Finish. Has a decent throw game also. Yun Sung's only problem is that he's linear. If you can find moves to keep people in front of you, you can have a field day.
 
Nori said:
Cervy = Top Tier. Pick me to argue! Pick me!
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Overall top tier?? Dont see this happening... LoL just cause you almost win a tourney with Cervy doesnt make him top tier Nori ;) remember you did get beat by a who?? a Yoshi thats right ;) lol
 
Nori said:
Well, you can't base tiers offline, first of all. It doesn't matter what record you have online, offline is the way to go. Find some friends in your local Regional Matchfinder and meet up offline. Yun Sung is good and anybody who tells you he's "low" tier has no idea what he's talking about. Yunsung is great at damage, and Critical Finish. Has a decent throw game also. Yun Sung's only problem is that he's linear. If you can find moves to keep people in front of you, you can have a field day.
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I wasn't meaning to use my record as an indicator, because trust me on this I'm just not that good, frankly. I think I was just oddly proud and wanted to awkwardly insert that into a post somewhere, haha.

It's just that linear or not, if he has the capability to punish like that (and surely a yun seong player is bound to have at least one or two oppurtunities if the player is good), does it even matter when he can initiate a 10+hit combo for over 50% of your life bar?


Edit: Oh, and I'm also curious about the comment about the online doesn't matter. I'm not trying to say online players are the equal of pro level tournament players, but as long as you're playing 5 bar games with 0 lag or input delay, how is it any different than meeting random people and playing offline?
 
So it's pretty well understood about who is tops, now who's on the bottom? I vote Tira, Talim and Rock as the bottom three.
 
Sporko said:
Edit: Oh, and I'm also curious about the comment about the online doesn't matter. I'm not trying to say online players are the equal of pro level tournament players, but as long as you're playing 5 bar games with 0 lag or input delay, how is it any different than meeting random people and playing offline?
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Because even at 5 bars it is FAR from having "0 lag or input delay."

The BEST connection you're likely to encounter online will net about 4~5 frames of lag online. It's not a lot but it pretty much skews the effects of almost EVERY move in the game.

Basically, your opponent's lows come out about 4~5 frames faster and normally punishable moves have 4~5 frames less recovery time (though the latter can be accounted for somewhat).

Again, this is assuming you're on an amazingly fast connection. 5 bars is annoying sometimes but still playable, but 4 or lower in my oppinion is practically unplayable.
 
So basically there's a difference, but one indistinguishable to the human eye yet still prevalent enough to have a significant impact on play?
 
wouldn't 4 frames be one fifteenth of a second?

Edit: Not trying to come off as petulant, in a fighting game of this nature I can see 4 or 5 frames having a definite statistical impact on how a fight plays out, but saying a 4 frame delay is "very obvious" to vets seems like more of an ego feeding thing. Nothing that takes place in less than a tenth of a second is very obvious to anybody. Not to say it couldn't be noticed or made apparent after long periods of objective observation.
 
Sporko said:
wouldn't 4 frames be one fifteenth of a second?

Edit: Not trying to come off as petulant, in a fighting game of this nature I can see 4 or 5 frames having a definite statistical impact on how a fight plays out, but saying a 4 frame delay is "very obvious" to vets seems like more of an ego feeding thing. Nothing that takes place in less than a tenth of a second is very obvious to anybody. Not to say it couldn't be noticed or made apparent after long periods of objective observation.
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The reason 4 frames of lag is important/noticeable is the offset it puts on our inputs. Take Mitsurugi's 1A for example: This move is i26, meaning it takes 26 frames for it to hit you. That's about 25 frames you have to read it, understand what it is, and input a low block. Now subtract 4-5 (likely more) frames off of that because of your latency: when you input guard it's going to take that extra 4-5 frames of lag to go into effect. That makes mitsus 1A a 20-frame read: not easy.

It's not that we can see 4 frame moves (even though we can truthfully feel our inputs are a little off), it's the fact that it fucks with the threshhold of moves we can easily read offline. 26 frames is a pretty readable area, 21 is a hard fucking read, impossible for most.
 
Rico said:
Wow. Are you living under a rock or something?

The ONLY reason he was ever thought of as close to A tier was because of his uber-tracking B,B, which he no longer has.

I find it amazing that the rest of your top-tier list can sound so reasonable and then you throw Raph up there when there's ZERO chance that he belongs there. Try and argue it if you like. I'm sure we could all use a laugh.
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Could be my personal opinion as i find him very hard to fight. But my main thing is that after the BB nerf he won't be changed again. Or he shouldn't at least. That said i feel that they may slowly drain down the current A tiers until Raph (I still believe he is solid B at the moment) will be close enough to lumped in with them.

Also purely out of curiosity why was Voldo nerfed so bad? I've never seen anyone complain about him or considered him above B tier at most.
 
RedDjinn said:
Overall top tier?? Dont see this happening... LoL just cause you almost win a tourney with Cervy doesnt make him top tier Nori ;) remember you did get beat by a who?? a Yoshi thats right ;) lol
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I sure did! Show me a cervy that punishes everything w/WS K instead of iGDR (I had not played Cervy before that match in SC4 seriously) and not even USING iGDR, places high in a tourney and I will bow to them.

Cervy isn't tops because I did good at a tourney w/him, I wish that were the case. You can see all of Yoshi's best lows on reaction. I'm starting to think (and the guy who beat me, Agustin agrees) that Yoshi isn't tops.

I know most of the sheep here who are told Yoshi is top will throw a fit, but let me clear this up so I can save sending tissues on FedEX:

---There is NO established Top 5 yet. EVERYTHING I say is an opinion. If I think Cervantes is top tier, just prove me wrong, or prove that you're right in a debate. Don't go getting an ulcer over it. Yoshi can beat ANYBODY. Even though multiple people agree he is dirt easy to use, he's still a very good char (still not as good as his SC2 version but anyway)---

I think top chars are as follows (in order)

Cervantes, Ivy, Voldo, Mitsurugi, Taki. (If I didn't include your char in top 5, again, don't start a drinking habit because of it, it's just my opinion. This game has a HUGE range of chars who I feel can win a major)
 
LoL everything anyone says is an opinion... its too early... and I doubt anyone even plays Yoshi correctly yet... He has quite the learning curve to truly be effective with him... His life gaining moves alone put him in the top 5 especially if anyone could hit 8A+K,K:K everytime... He can ring you out with the best of them, yea you might be able to see his lows but I'm pretty sure you can see cervys too ;) yoshi has the advantage of mixing up his stances with his lows so you never truly know what hes going to do unless hes just being predictable... He can come out of any stance and throw you for more throw damage then almost anyone in the game... If his lows actually do hit you its at least 70dmg... with wakes... He has more effective just frames then anyone in the game... his iMCF is i9 and interrupts almost everything after he hits you with anything, I.E ( 6A,A,AA,B,BB,K)... he has more usable unblockables then over half the characters... he has three types of teleport one if it hits is half your life gone and half his life back, he has auto GI's also one if it hits is half your life gone, His stances evade&punish lows... highs... mids and sometimes everything... He has awesome combo/wall damage... his pressure game is off the charts... His only weakness is his range game and that can be canceled out pretty much by doing 33B, B+K which is safe and gets you inside everytime..... As long as you dont play Stupid with him hes relatively safe.... I'm sure Agustin didnt even play him to his full ability as he is probably still perfecting him as well... Nothing is in stone but anyone with these skills/qualifications deserves to be in the top 5... i'd say thats a pretty good arguement... eh?
 
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