1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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WareEaglesDare said:
Tiers just seems like a redundant conversation. Any character can win IN THE RIGHT HANDS. The idea of tiers looks like it should be a list of people that are easier to win with without knowing what you're doing.

You could easily take two expert players one Rock and one Sophi, and watch Rock simply impact every stupid move Sophi does, break the grabs, and punish accordingly. This is all theory of course because that scenario is highly unlikely and this SC is fairly well balanced.

Obviously since my play has been limited to scouring XBL for good connections while trying to find decent offline comp, anyone here can easily write this post off as uninformed or lacking experience.

Change topic: As an Ivy player since 2 (skipping 3 for obvious reasons) I have only encountered (so far) a small number of Ivy's worth playing (nofacekiller - XBL) so Link, if you're paying attention, and have XBL, add me!
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LoL trust me Link would wipe the floor with you.... No offense ;) and I doubt he plays online.... and impacting doesnt add into tier discussions really... Sophy would beat rock just on punishment alone...
 
Mina's crap. I still consider her my main, and been playing her since this game has come out, and she's crap.

Upclose, she's got crap tools that range from either unsafe, unreliable, and generally unimpressive. At mid-to-long range, you'd expect her to shine, but she's still amazingly outclassed by other much better characters like the sisters and Ivy. And her Achilles heel is that she can't control space from those good characters (or any characters really), especially when the players are familiar with the few decent spacing tools she has and the fact that she has three moves that effective cover step/run to her right.

Actually, she has TWO second Achilles heels. The other one is the tiprange garbage that does nothing but make her damage inconsistent. Her combo potential is already handicapped, but add moves/juggles that are complete crap upclose (2A does 10 damage), and she becomes too specialized for the return you get. I know, this is all theory fighter and a perfect Mina player will tell when someone's in tiprange at all times, but I can't ignore reality in this case. And even in that case, her tiprange damage is merely good (or "what it should be", as I see it). If all her moves had tiprange properties at any range, she still would be mid at best.

FC game is not that good. FC 1KK can be blocked on reaction and unsafe. WS K is unsafe. WS A is slow and merely decent. WS B only grants knockdown, plus linear and slow (the range at which it actually launches negates all her other WS options). There's nothing really scary about it. The one time the opp reacts right is all he needs to not only kill her momentum but do damage too.

Yeah, she's got good stuff. 9_8B tech trap does close to half damage. CH 4KB can lead to 80+. She can destroy a soul gauge pretty well (albeit not in a safe manner; Lizzy still reigns as the king, to me). And her throw damage is good (I keep forgetting this). But all her good things all have obvious shortcomings.


I'm not familiar with Kilik, but if the consensus is that he's mid, then he's better than Mina.
 
RedDjinn said:
LoL trust me Link would wipe the floor with you.... No offense ;) and I doubt he plays online.... and impacting doesnt add into tier discussions really... Sophy would beat rock just on punishment alone...
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I don't play online by choice, and I never claimed to be better than Link. Would just like to play him. "You can only get smarter by playing a smarter opponent." -Can't remember who said that, a chess master of some sort. The second part reinforces my initial statement that tiers is merely a conversation piece and is very limited in it's uses.
 
Nori said:
Kilik and Mina are not top tier. Not even close.
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Agreed.

Although Kilik >>> Mina

Angrel-San said:
Mina not good? LOL! You mustn't have a great Mina in your area.

Kilik, not good?

Nori, if I lost my mind, you're just plain in Kindergarden.

Kilik not good...ROFLMAO.
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See above statement


arstal said:
I rate Mina and Kilik about the same, each better at different things. Neither is any better then mid tier. You can win with them, but hard against some chars like Scrubitia and Ivy (who just rapes Mina for free- it's her worst matchup)
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See above statement about above statement
 
So howsabout my man Voldo? There seems to be a split in this thread among players who consider him top tier and players who consider him upper mid (though it seems from comments that even most of the people who put him in upper mid put him near the top of upper mid).

Since the whole tiering system is based on the concept of near perfect players meeting at near perfect skills (which pretty much can't happen, though I understand the need to assume this in order to establish tiers in the first place), and since his tools seem to put him very close to the top even if not at top tier, when you mix in tricks, mindgames and his ability to mixup combined with the natural evasiveness of a large number of his moves and wouldn't he have to be considered a top contender in the...well I don't know what to call it, so I'll just say in the "tier of practicality"?
 
The best Voldo I've seen in years (post SC2) only used a small amount of Voldo's extensive options (very effectively non-the-less.) Since I have never been to a tournament this is a very scew observation. My friend Joel was ranked pretty high on the East Coast in 2 and multiple Tekken installments; and he was sick with everyone. I would say if someone were to fully utilize Voldo in all his glory he would be right up there with Setsuka and Ivy (in my book).

On a side note:
Each week I'll be taking a preliminary look at a different character. Going through the different move-sets / combo lists, and tweaking them to fit my play style. I'm thinking of posting a thread in each soul arena with my findings / questions as an outsider look at each character. If this is interesting to anyone let me know and we can each work on the same character and combine data. Just seems like a nice project to learn all characters from a perspective other than fighting them. I'll probably post an official "base article" in general discussion this weekend. I've been doing Lizardman this week but gave up after a few days as he initially comes off as effective, but clunky.
 
Angrel-San said:
You're missing low throws, an excellent FC game, a nasty wakeup and oki game with her jumps of doom, great damage and safety at tip range and one of the best (if not the best) CF games.
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She has no low throws. Cassandra, Xianghua, Asta, and Rock have low throws.

Excellent FC game? She has a better FC game than, say, Apprentice. but no one really cares about FC game, WS moves are just as good, and hers are average.

Nasty Oki? No. That'd be Siegfried or Mitsurugi or Nightmare.

Wakeup? No, not at all. All her moves are too slow really.

Great damage? Decent damage. Nothing compared to Sophi or Cass or basically half the cast.

One of the best CF games? Hardly.
 
WareEaglesDare said:
Change topic: As an Ivy player since 2 (skipping 3 for obvious reasons) I have only encountered (so far) a small number of Ivy's worth playing (nofacekiller - XBL) so Link, if you're paying attention, and have XBL, add me!
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Link said last week that he hasn't played Ivy since the patch, since it made her so bad.
 
Gah, I meant please explain why Mina and KILIK are so good.

I know why Mitsu is good.

And I can see Kilik's tools, though I don't think they amount to much more than a mid (MAYBE upper mid) tier character's tools. Mina however just has so many disadvantages and really no solid answer to up close rushdown which is bad because all the top characters are GREAT at up close rushdown.
 
Mina's answer to up close rushdown is to never get in that position. She does have the tools to do that. That's why I say she's a balanced Mid. I do think she's a little better then Kilik, but I realize that's a minority opinion and I might be wrong.

Mina vs Taki is a FUN matchup since their strengths are direct opposites.
 
arstal said:
Mina's answer to up close rushdown is to never get in that position. She does have the tools to do that. That's why I say she's a balanced Mid. I do think she's a little better then Kilik, but I realize that's a minority opinion and I might be wrong.
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A respectable opinion. I do feel that Mina is probably ranked a bit lower than she should be, but that's most likely due to her being underplayed. I feel she's kind of in the same boat as Tira. They're both pretty difficult to play as and unfriendly to people new to the character.

Much like you feel about Mina, I think Tira is a solid mid. I know she's got the tools to win, unfortunately they're not quite as good as some. I wouldn't dare put her in top just because I win a lot with her, though.
 
Wait a minute, why is this thread still going if the game has been out for like 2 months already?
 
KoshTheKoala said:
She has no low throws. Cassandra, Xianghua, Asta, and Rock have low throws.
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Probably talking about 1_3A+B. Which are nice except for the fact that they're unsafe.

Excellent FC game? She has a better FC game than, say, Apprentice. but no one really cares about FC game, WS moves are just as good, and hers are average.
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Fast low with massive pushout? Launching mid with pushout on block? Decent ranged low with good step killing properties? Horizontal mid with ability to mixup? A good chunk of her game actually revolves around her crouching state.

Nasty Oki? No. That'd be Siegfried or Mitsurugi or Nightmare.

Wakeup? No, not at all. All her moves are too slow really.
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It's pretty decent actually. 9B+K and 66_44A+B are both good damage. 2A+B will catch anyone trying to roll, and even though it's slow and blockable on reaction, she can cancel. And at that point you're at the mercy of her FC game.

Great damage? Decent damage. Nothing compared to Sophi or Cass or basically half the cast.
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It's definitely nothing special in general.

One of the best CF games? Hardly.
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I would think the ability to CF you in 6 blocks is pretty beefy.

All that said though, she's low-mid. :P

Too many problematic matchups. Not even counting the amount of work you have to put in to play her well. Lol.
 
ShenYu said:
Probably talking about 1_3A+B. Which are nice except for the fact that they're unsafe.
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Yeah I know what he was talking about.

Fast low with massive pushout? Launching mid with pushout on block? Decent ranged low with good step killing properties? Horizontal mid with ability to mixup? A good chunk of her game actually revolves around her crouching state.
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Ok I'll give you that, but the point I was unsuccessfully trying to make is that I'd rather have an excellent standing game than a FC game. The only reason having good FC moves is important is if you're up close and 2Ging fast horizontals or if you're up close and they just force crouched you. Or I guess if you have a lot of moves that put you into FC... and none of those situations are really ideal.

It's pretty decent actually. 9B+K and 66_44A+B are both good damage. 2A+B will catch anyone trying to roll, and even though it's slow and blockable on reaction, she can cancel. And at that point you're at the mercy of her FC game.
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Decent. Nothing to write home about, which is the point.

I would think the ability to CF you in 6 blocks is pretty beefy.
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But are the moves safe? Long range? :p

Too many problematic matchups. Not even counting the amount of work you have to put in to play her well. Lol.
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It's not that much work to play her well... but it's more than sophi. Not as much as Taki or Sets though.
 
The CF moves are fairly safe and long-ranged, though linear. In that regard she's a slightly better Yunsung (who is considered to have the easiest time CF). Mina has horizontals that do decent guard damage as well, like A+B.

I rate Mina as dead mid. That said she has some huge adv and disadv matchups. (Mina vs Ivy pre-patch was 9-1 Ivy, now it's 8-2)

I think the amount of work needed to go into Mina is the same as Taki honestly. Just in different areas. It's like your classic outfighter vs infighter matchup.
 
arstal said:
The CF moves are fairly safe and long-ranged, though linear. In that regard she's a slightly better Yunsung (who is considered to have the easiest time CF). Mina has horizontals that do decent guard damage as well, like A+B.

I rate Mina as dead mid. That said she has some huge adv and disadv matchups. (Mina vs Ivy pre-patch was 9-1 Ivy, now it's 8-2)

I think the amount of work needed to go into Mina is the same as Taki honestly. Just in different areas. It's like your classic outfighter vs infighter matchup.
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You forgot to add that theyre sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
A+B doesnt do shit for soul gauge post patch. Neither does 66A. 8A+B is heavily unsafe. So there are no horizontal SG options for her anymore.
Also, Yun isnt even close to the top of SG damage once the opponent learns to deal with his 6B bs. His SG damage is still decent all around but he can not rack it up as fast and safely nor set it up as easily as say Sieg, Liz or Sophie.
 
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