1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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I usually don't think much about tier lists since I don't feel they matter much, but anyways here's how I've viewed character placings for a while now..

Top (in order):

Amy
Kilik
Voldo
Darth Vader
Hilde

Upper Mid (no order):

Algol/Astaroth/Cassandra/Cervantes/Ivy/Setsuka/Yoshimitsu

Mid:

Lizardman/Mitsurugi/Sophitia/Siegfried/The Apprentice/Xianghua

Lower Mid:

Maxi/Nightmare/Seong Mi-Na/Taki/Yun-seong/Zasalamel

Low:

Raphael/Rock/Talim/Tira/Yoda


I don't believe my list is 100% correct, it's just my current opinion. And I know people will say my list is retarded for not having Hilde and Algol at the top, but I really don't view them as that big of a threat. One of the main factors that I look into are the matchups. SoulCalibur 4 seems to be a very matchup based game. Almost every character has really good and bad matchups. The only reason I put Hilde and Algol lower than most people do is because they have bad matchups that will bring them down. Algol has a load of bad matchups, and Hilde has ones that bring the fight to 5:5 or much worse (vs Yoda).

The top 5 characters on my list are very good characters and have little to no bad matchups. Amy for example doesn't seem to have any matchups against her. Her worst ones seem to be 5:5 (Kilik/Apprentice), and she is all around a solid character with great tools. Thats why I view her as the best in the game.

If someone enters a tournament and wants to win at all costs, and aren't stubborn or have some sort of pride about only using one character, then they can learn a counter for Algol or Hilde and put the fight in their favor. But with someone like Amy, I don't see that happening, you just can't make the playing field in your favor by learning a specific character.
 
Nobli said:
one thing id like to see is a hilde player who takes advantages of her normals and not just trying to set up her doom combo. idk i would have to look into it personally (im not some godly player) and play a couple rounds without using the doom combo
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Than all of a sudden she goes from top tier to low tier lol. Her normals are pretty crappy. I think another thing about her is that she is so ridiculously difficult to play, you need perfect timing for her combos including doom, that there are not a lot of ways a player can practice against Hilde and learn how to counter her at high level play since so few people can use her affectively( would a high level computer Hilde help for training?)

Players that can consistently land her ridiculous combos like RTD and Ceirnian deserve the success they have. It may seem cheap but it is very hard to do
 
Scaliburfan7, from that post I can tell that you've never bothered learning Hilde. From my experience, Hilde is BY FAR the easiest character to learn and use effectively out of the entire Soul Calibur SERIES. Her doom combo is stupid easy and only requires skill to pull off against certain characters (such as Amy) where strict timing is required. To someone that hasn't learned her, the style of holding buttons might seem intimidating and complex, but once you actually take some time to learn it you'll realize how easy it really is.

Keep in mind I'm talking about pad Hilde with button binds. Arcade stick Hilde is a different story.
 
OOFMATIC said:
Scaliburfan7, from that post I can tell that you've never bothered learning Hilde. From my experience, Hilde is BY FAR the easiest character to learn and use effectively out of the entire Soul Calibur SERIES. Her doom combo is stupid easy and only requires skill to pull off against certain characters (such as Amy) where strict timing is required. To someone that hasn't learned her, the style of holding buttons might seem intimidating and complex, but once you actually take some time to learn it you'll realize how easy it really is.

Keep in mind I'm talking about pad Hilde with button binds. Arcade stick Hilde is a different story.
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I've tried in training mode, and it is very hard to get right. when the character hits the ground after the C3, 44K, my C2BB that supposed to follow misses or comes out wrong( like a regular B attack, because I release than press B again, but released too early) I really struggled to get the timing I cannot seem to get it. Now if im having that much trouble against a dummy, that would be a bitch in a live match. "Hilde by FAR easiest character to learn and use effectively" and "her doom combo is stupid easy". If that were true than how come there are so few Hildes, Top tier character with a stupid easy doom combo, the tournaments and online play should be flooded with them than lol. I'll have to check the Hilde soul arena for tips on the combo but I'm certain your exaggerating the facility of its execution
 
Kilik vs. Algol = 6/4
Kilik vs. Hilde = 5/5
Kilik vs. Nightmare = 5/5
Kilik vs. Sophitia = 6/4
Kilik vs. Xianghua = 5/5
Kilik vs. Amy = 5/5
Kilik vs. Ivy = 5/5
Kilik vs. Raphael = 6/4
Kilik vs. Taki = 7/3
Kilik vs. Yoda = 8/2
Kilik vs. Astaroth = 5/5
Kilik vs. Rock = 7/3
Kilik vs. Talim = 7/3
Kilik vs. Yoshimitsu = 5/5
Kilik vs. Cassandra = 6/4
Kilik vs. Lizardman = 5/5
Kilik vs. Seong Mi-Na = 6/4
Kilik vs. The Apprentice = 6/4
Kilik vs. Yun-Seong = 5/5
Kilik vs. Cervantes = 6/4
Kilik vs. Maxi = 7/3
Kilik vs. Setsuka = 5/5
Kilik vs. Tira = 6/4
Kilik vs. Zasalamel = 6/4
Kilik vs. Darth Vader = 5/5
Kilik vs. Mitsurugi = 5/5
Kilik vs. Siegfried = 6/4
Kilik vs. Voldo = 6/4

http://www.8wayrun.com/f30/kilik-matchup-thread-finalized-t4194/

I just wanted to throw Kilik's 100% finished matchup chart in here. Nothing on this list is theoretical except for Setsuka and Tira. I have played the top 3 or almost top of each character and their respective player. I have also changed things based on others opionions and results that occur or occured. Ex. Ivy was believed to be Kilik's only bad matchup but results and opinions prove otherwise. That thread is easily the most in depth matchup thread on this website with rational explanations for those who needed them. Also i'm gonna be finally cleaning up the first post daily to give on sight explanations for each character. If you read the thread u can see when and why changes were made to the list. There are videos in some cases to compliment things.

The point is everything was taken into consideration here. Tools, theoretical, opinions, and results.

For example Kilik vs. Voldo was recently changed from 5/5 to 6/4 in favor of Kilik. I'm sure most would think huh!

For reference these are top notch Voldo's that I have played now and suprisingly they all play Voldo differently. Manta, Esom, AlphaMale, Bibulous and three out of the four I have edged out by noticeable margins in this matchup which imo makes me think Kilik has an advantage. In the past some Voldo players used to say Asura was a major problem for Voldo but I didn't think so. However it really is among other things and thats considering his 1K.

Another Example Kilik vs. Ivy I originally thought was 3/7 then 4/6 for Ivy but in reality me vs. Malek proved differently and he makes this matchup hell but I was still able to edge him out. Linkrkc and Woahhzz think its even and the little bit that I played Linkrkc at Nats it was even once again. This is just an example of how results actually play out.

Kilik vs. Yoda I would almost put a 9/1. He has no answer for Asura JF more than anything. It can literally be abused to nonstop. Kilik's lows make the match even harder and WSK beats out all his options that place u in FC while Asura cleans up everything that doesn't put u in FC. This matchup is really bad. 2B/BB Mixup destroys his SG which is already bad to begin with. Last but not least there are two characters who's throws can be stepped to ur left/the opponents right consistently over and over again. Those two characters are Yoda which doesn't help this matchup for him and suprise, suprise Hilde. This matchup is based on the king Yoda himself Oofmatic.

Because of this list and the research to be accurate he is the best only to be challenged by Hilde and that may even be the case. It's possible she can still edge him out because of more 6/4's or 7/3's and less 5/5's definitely. She also has two official bad matchups which are Yoda and Vader.

I'm not gonna get to much into Amy but what I can tell u and Thugish will agree with me here is that Astaroth is a bad matchup for Amy as well as Mitsu single handedly revealed by Belial the Mitsu player. She is good but she also is not a dominant character making alot of 6/4 matchups. Its just hard to deal with her Mixup thats all. In fact the Amy who continously beats my ass can even tell u there is a way to exploit Amy that I was showing him over the course of both events. Amy is pathetically weak to Step G. I mean really bad. In the NVGA tournament it became even more apparent to Thugish as I executed on it alot better than I did in Nats.

Finally look out for Astaroth as he seems to be a rational character for moving up the list. He seems to be anti all the top characters in the game making matches even or edging out. Just saying.

If I had to make a tier list:

S+ ~ Kilik, Hilde, Setsuka (In order)
S ~ Voldo, Ivy, Amy, Algol (Possible Yoshimitsu) (In no order)
A ~ Astaroth
B ~ Everyone else
C ~ Everyone else
D ~ Everyone else

I have Astaroth in a tier by himself because he either counters all the top or neutralizes things to be even and his tools are respectable enough to edge everyone else out.

One final thing is I think Yoshimitsu is a sleeper hit as well. After seeing Lolo and HajimeOwari play some games I think he could be in S tier as well but I don't know much about his matchups, etc.
 
Um um I know only pros are supposed to be posting here, but can I ask a question?

How come there is such little discussion of the southern end of the tier list?

Edit: Oh ok, thanks Something-Unique. But also what happened to Siggy? I thought he was beast with his +8 low and a:g:as and whatnot.
 
To be honest I think that's because those are tough to determine who fits where exactly so they are just placed where they are respectable in that particular tier.
 
SU: SU I can agree w/99% of what you said in your post. I honestly feel we need more matchup posts like that, instead of "this char is better because", so great job on that. However, I have almost zero respect for Yoshimitsu. The best Yoshi at Nats, I never got to play. I think he has to work damn hard w/what he has. He has zero WS game. If you block his best lows, he takes it up the ass. I think a guy like Hajime did decent at Nats because he's a smart player, I don't think it's cause Yoshi is anywhere near S. I'm only commenting because out of everybody in the cast, my most experience personally is against Yoshimitsu. He's good, but I would only put him as far as upper-mid.

So far, I don't know about the exact "order", but I think from Nats and seeing the best of each char, Oof's list is pretty damn good.
 
Nori said:
There is absolutely no way Mitsurugi is better than Cervantes. I can MAYBE agree w/Hilde/Kilik/Ivy/Voldo/Amy/Setsuka being better. Siegfried/Mitsu are certainly not. This should have been proven to you by now
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Ok...well until I see a Cervantes start winning, then I'll be convinced. Mitsu in IMO is better than Cervy, hands down. He gives Mitsu too many chances for his 50/50s. YOU should know this by now.
 
AGUSTIN said:
Ok...well until I see a Cervantes start winning, then I'll be convinced. Mitsu in IMO is better than Cervy, hands down. He gives Mitsu too many chances for his 50/50s. YOU should know this by now.
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That's not how tiers work. It's not just Mitsu vs Cervantes. It's about look at Mitsu vs the cast, tally all his bad matchups, now do it w/Cervantes. Cervantes for sure has less bad matchups than Mitsu. Otherwise, in your logic, if Asta does good against Hilde, he should be the best, but he's clearly not.
 
Nori fair enough as i'm not sure about Yoshimitsu myself.

What I say 100% though is that

S+

Kilik-Setsuka-Hilde

Are above the rest due to matchups and even though she has 2 bad matchups I imagine most of the rest for her are 6/4's or 7/3's with like 3 5/5's. Its not hard to realize either that all of them having damaging tools that hurt and can be used almost virtually safe and still be effective. There are just to many positives for the above characters and they have the matchups to compliment their placings. Setsuka may be difficult to use but her tools are there once someone can utilize her the right way. In fighting games there is always someone who can use even the hardest character so she is beast.

Clarification: Three different charts all close minus some possible errors. The Setsuka one looks accurate but suspect in some places to me though but posting it just because.

Kilik Matchup Chart: Something-Unique's/Kilik Forums Chart

Kilik vs. Algol = 6/4
Kilik vs. Hilde = 5/5
Kilik vs. Nightmare = 5/5
Kilik vs. Sophitia = 6/4
Kilik vs. Xianghua = 5/5
Kilik vs. Amy = 5/5
Kilik vs. Ivy = 5/5
Kilik vs. Raphael = 6/4
Kilik vs. Taki = 7/3
Kilik vs. Yoda = 8/2
Kilik vs. Astaroth = 5/5
Kilik vs. Rock = 7/3
Kilik vs. Talim = 7/3
Kilik vs. Yoshimitsu = 5/5
Kilik vs. Cassandra = 6/4
Kilik vs. Lizardman = 5/5
Kilik vs. Seong Mi-Na = 6/4
Kilik vs. The Apprentice = 6/4
Kilik vs. Yun-Seong = 5/5
Kilik vs. Cervantes = 6/4
Kilik vs. Maxi = 7/3
Kilik vs. Setsuka = 5/5
Kilik vs. Tira = 6/4
Kilik vs. Zasalamel = 6/4
Kilik vs. Darth Vader = 5/5
Kilik vs. Mitsurugi = 5/5
Kilik vs. Siegfried = 6/4
Kilik vs. Voldo = 6/4

Setsuka Matchup Chart: Maxou's (I don't think Kilik vs. Setsuka is in her favor but just re-writing what he has)

Setsuka vs. Algol = ?
Setsuka vs. Kilik = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Nightmare = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Sophitia = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Xianghua = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Amy = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Ivy = 5/5
Setsuka vs. Raphael = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Taki = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Yoda = ?
Setsuka vs. Astaroth = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Rock = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Talim = 7/3
Setsuka vs. Yoshimitsu = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Cassandra = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Lizardman = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Seong Mi-Na = 7/3
Setsuka vs. The Apprentice = ?
Setsuka vs. Yun-Seong = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Cervantes = 5/5
Setsuka vs. Maxi = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Tira = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Zasalamel = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Darth Vader = ?
Setsuka vs. Mitsurugi = 5/5
Setsuka vs. Siegfried = 6/4
Setsuka vs. Voldo = 5/5

Hilde Matchup Chart: (Since their is no chart this is one attempting to be accurate from me)

Hilde vs. Algol = 6/4
Hilde vs. Kilik = 5/5
Hilde vs. Nightmare = 6/4
Hilde vs. Sophitia = 6/4
Hilde vs. Xianghua = 6/4
Hilde vs. Amy = 6/4
Hilde vs. Ivy = 5/5
Hilde vs. Raphael = 6/4
Hilde vs. Taki = 7/3
Hilde vs. Yoda = 3/7
Hilde vs. Astaroth = 5/5
Hilde vs. Rock = 6/4
Hilde vs. Talim = 7/3
Hilde vs. Yoshimitsu = 6/4
Hilde vs. Cassandra = 6/4
Hilde vs. Lizardman = 6/4
Hilde vs. Seong Mi-Na = 7/3
Hilde vs. The Apprentice = 6/4
Hilde vs. Yun-Seong = 6/4
Hilde vs. Cervantes = 5/5
Hilde vs. Maxi = 6/4
Hilde vs. Setsuka = 6/4
Hilde vs. Tira = 6/4
Hilde vs. Zasalamel = 6/4
Hilde vs. Darth Vader = 4/6
Hilde vs. Mitsurugi = 7/3
Hilde vs. Siegfried = 6/4
Hilde vs. Voldo = 6/4

People's opinions please as these charts provide proof!
 
Scaliburfan7 said:
Than all of a sudden she goes from top tier to low tier lol. Her normals are pretty crappy. I think another thing about her is that she is so ridiculously difficult to play, you need perfect timing for her combos including doom, that there are not a lot of ways a player can practice against Hilde and learn how to counter her at high level play since so few people can use her affectively( would a high level computer Hilde help for training?)

Players that can consistently land her ridiculous combos like RTD and Ceirnian deserve the success they have. It may seem cheap but it is very hard to do
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nah you not understanding what im getting at. im saying if a player could win with just her normals and not have to rely on the doom combo, then things would get scary. because the general hilde strat right now is this

Hilde: use 7k 2k 1k pokes and step g to set up c3b, proceed to doom combo.
opponent: pressure and step g to her left to avoid c3b, be weary of c3a but as it is, not too much damage from c3a, c3b combo.

think about it and tell me thats not what every match plays out to be.
now imagine someone was to find a way to combo into c3b off a normal? or hit you for 40% damage after hitting you with c3a? i think she has more potential than what we see at the moment.

now how would you combat someone who has the ability to RO you from a tiny mistake ala a doom combo AND be able to KO you the traditional way ala the above paragraph. i just think the next big thing to come will be the player who takes advantages of c3a and her regular combos.
 
Nobli said:
think about it and tell me thats not what every match plays out to be.
now imagine someone was to find a way to combo into c3b off a normal? or hit you for 40% damage after hitting you with c3a? i think she has more potential than what we see at the moment.

now how would you combat someone who has the ability to RO you from a tiny mistake ala a doom combo AND be able to KO you the traditional way ala the above paragraph. i just think the next big thing to come will be the player who takes advantages of c3a and her regular combos.
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Her normals don't link into her charges that way, not even a little bit. The only way to combo c3b from a normal is a shakeable stun like 33k or wr a+B, and that causes scaling... and it's shakeable so whatever. Don't presume to think that Hilde players have been only looking at charges. I have personally gone through her entire movelist on multiple occassions trying to find uses for every single move she has, as have others. Simply put, her non charge movelist is ok but not great by a long shot. I could probably win some matches with just her normals but I personally don't see the point of limiting myself to her lesser moves. I admit I need to work on incorporating them into my instinctive gameplay so that in high pressure situations I don't forget about certain things though.
 
nah see im not trying to say play a chargeless hilde, but in general every hilde plays basically the same no? basically it turns into a "turtle" (maybe wrong word, imagine a heavyweight with one hit KO power) and the fight turns into a defensive match looking to hit the doom combo. would i be wrong in stating that most hilde players (tourny level players) end up being one dimensional? not necessarily referring to you or a hilde not winning nats or evo, but i guarantee that if you would have added a brand new never before seen set up that not everyone and their mom is used to seeing i.e. Doom combo, to your already good hilde; you would have won more matches. Note: im not referring to you personally, but someone with your skills. and if their isnt that certain thing that makes hilde fresh or unpredictable, she will soon fall from top tier.
 
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