Apprentice Match-up Discussion

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
Who do you guys think are the hardest matchups for the Apprentice?

Right now I'm leaning towards Taki. I only had one short session Vs a very good Taki and it proved to be very difficult fending her off compared to when I use my other characters.

When you break her throws with A+B she can beat anything you do with her AA. So you're forced to GI or guard. Also, since Apprentice has such a crappy 2A it's difficult to interrupt her when she's up in your face doing all her moves. And since the Apprentice is best played as an interrupter it can be difficult to play him like that against Taki, since she's so fast.

I'm starting to think that vs. a good Taki it might be best to play with a very defensive interrupting style by getting away from her strings with 2_8_4_6A+K.

Hopefully I can get some more sessions in with good Taki players so that I can figure out what the best strategy to fight her would be.
 

KoshTheKoala

[09] Warrior
I played against MoTempest/Link yesterday, using my Apprentice vs his Taki. It helps that I play Taki as my main and such I know in general what's coming up, but I agree that Taki is a problem.

Not only on A+B throw breaks, but A+B force pull as well, Taki benefits more from the reset or even +1 frame advantage, as her i10 A wins. I haven't tested, but 2A, 2K and maybe even 3B should be able to tech duck under Taki's A.

Talim is also a hard matchup.
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
You're right, 2K, 2A, 3B, and 44K all go under Taki's AA after the A+B throw break.

3B is just the only one that won't duck her AA after the force pull.
 

KoshTheKoala

[09] Warrior
You're right, 2K, 2A, 3B, and 44K all go under Taki's AA after the A+B throw break.

3B is just the only one that won't duck her AA after the force pull.

That's strange, seeing as the forcepull gives frame advantage, you'd think 3B would definitely duck under Taki's A if it does on the throw break.
 

HumanJerky

[08] Mercenary
I was playing with a friend earlier and I was having a ton of trouble with Raph. It doesn't help that I don't have all of his moves down, but he pretty much chewed me up and spit me out.
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
If you're having trouble against Raph then you should probably be step more, since alot of Raph's moves can be stepped to your left. After the patch it's even easier to step him now because you don't have to worry about BB tracking.
 

HumanJerky

[08] Mercenary
If you're having trouble against Raph then you should probably be step more, since alot of Raph's moves can be stepped to your left. After the patch it's even easier to step him now because you don't have to worry about BB tracking.

Awesome. I knew BB tracked and it's one of his favorite moves, I'll try that as I was blocking BB and he was taking full advantage of all of his nifty lows.
 

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
First off I'm sorry to all starkiller palyers for stupid comment about the appr. But anyway I'm just going to put this out anyway is Ivy a bad match for the appr also?
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
I don't find Ivy to be a bad match for Appy, especially since Appy is a good stepper.

Here's a list of characters that I feel are good, fair, and bad matchups for Appy, from my experience:

Good
Astaroth - Appy can lock him down with good use of BB's and other pokes to interrupt, and can stop all throw attempts which will really hurt Asta's game.
Lizardman- Appy doesn't have to deal with crawl mixups like most other characters. When Lizzy gets into crawl Appy can just 4A+K away to safety and might even have time to shoot a 236B at Liz.
Talim- I haven't tested this against a Talim player but I'm sure Appy's A+B can knock Talim out of any Wind Leap and Wind Sault mixup attempts.
Raphael- Raph is weak against step and Appy has really good step. So step that shit!
Rock- See Astaroth.
Yoda- Yoda has NOTHING on Appy. Any Yoda I fight, I just play keep away. Yoda runs VERY slow, so you can just keep using your 2_4_6_8A+K jumps to keep away and just throw 236B's at Yoda to chip away at his life. And then just keep jumping away until time is up.

Fair
- These are characters that I've fought that don't really seem to have the upper hand on Appy, nor have apparent weaknesses that Appy can exploit using his moves.
Algol
Ivy
Mitsurugi
Seong Mina
Xianghua
Tira
Yoshimitsu
Yun Seong
Zasalamel


Bad
Amy - Very fast, can out interrupt Appy. You gotta be very careful fighting her, as her auto Gi's can screw up any BB whoring attempts.
Cassandra - I only put her here because 3B whiffs on her if she crouch guards. Otherwise she's not that bad of a matchup.
Cervantes - I only put him here because Appy's throws whiff on him 99.99% of the time if he holds guard.
Nightmare - See Cervantes
Siegfried - See Cervantes
Sophitia - See Cassandra
Taki - Her speed can be a pain to deal with, especially post throw break and force pull. Also Appy's 2A sucks so it's difficult to interrupt her at times.
 

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
I don't find Ivy to be a bad match for Appy, especially since Appy is a good stepper.

Here's a list of characters that I feel are good, fair, and bad matchups for Appy, from my experience:

Good
Astaroth - Appy can lock him down with good use of BB's and other pokes to interrupt, and can stop all throw attempts which will really hurt Asta's game.
Lizardman- Appy doesn't have to deal with crawl mixups like most other characters. When Lizzy gets into crawl Appy can just 4A+K away to safety and might even have time to shoot a 236B at Liz.
Talim- I haven't tested this against a Talim player but I'm sure Appy's A+B can knock Talim out of any Wind Leap and Wind Sault mixup attempts.
Raphael- Raph is weak against step and Appy has really good step. So step that shit!
Rock- See Astaroth.
Yoda- Yoda has NOTHING on Appy. Any Yoda I fight, I just play keep away. Yoda runs VERY slow, so you can just keep using your 2_4_6_8A+K jumps to keep away and just throw 236B's at Yoda to chip away at his life. And then just keep jumping away until time is up.

Fair
- These are characters that I've fought that don't really seem to have the upper hand on Appy, nor have apparent weaknesses that Appy can exploit using his moves.
Algol
Ivy
Mitsurugi
Seong Mina
Xianghua
Tira
Yoshimitsu
Yun Seong
Zasalamel


Bad
Amy - Very fast, can out interrupt Appy. You gotta be very careful fighting her, as her auto Gi's can screw up any BB whoring attempts.
Cassandra - I only put her here because 3B whiffs on her if she crouch guards. Otherwise she's not that bad of a matchup.
Cervantes - I only put him here because Appy's throws whiff on him 99.99% of the time if he holds guard.
Nightmare - See Cervantes
Siegfried - See Cervantes
Sophitia - See Cassandra
Taki - Her speed can be a pain to deal with, especially post throw break and force pull. Also Appy's 2A sucks so it's difficult to interrupt her at times.

Hlide might be a good match up for him to. or it could be bad with Hldie great range. But her lack of moves and pressure can give the appr what he need for BB's.

I forogt to say if I can add to your soild list matic.
 

HumanJerky

[08] Mercenary
If you're having trouble against Raph then you should probably be step more, since alot of Raph's moves can be stepped to your left. After the patch it's even easier to step him now because you don't have to worry about BB tracking.

Worked like a charm. We played each other for a couple of hours yesterday. We basically ended up breaking even. Raph is kinda cheap, because he sorta forces you to step and if he throws one of his horz(not sure which one)while you are in mid-step he can follow up into a volly of verts, which isn't bad because once you get enough room to block, but then the process starts over again. Or at least that's how my friend plays it.
 

RiBu

Mitsu-Fucking-Rugi
I'm not so sure on NM being a bad match-up. I haven't noticed throw whiffing too much, even on edgemaster AI, but that could just be stupid luck.

Since SK can just take out GS at long range with 236B, or flip away at mid to close range.
Mid range he can just seem to use 22_88A to go past highs.
And A+B pull seem to work better on NM since he lacks a i12 or i13 mid to beat anything out.

What does NM have going for him in this match-up other than the SK whiffing?
 

KoshTheKoala

[09] Warrior
Here's my ever-changing matchup list...

+ means favorable matchup
++ means very favorable matchup
- means unfavorable matchup
-- means very unfavorable matchup
= means about even

Apprentice vs...
» Algol: =
» Amy: -
» Astaroth: +
» Cassandra: -
» Cervantes: -
» Darth Vader: =
» Hilde: +
» Ivy: =
» Kilik: -
» Lizardman: =
» Maxi: -
» Mitsurugi: =
» Nightmare: +
» Raphael: +
» Rock: ++
» Seong Mi-Na: +
» Setsuka: =
» Siegfried: +
» Sophitia: --
» Taki: --
» Talim: +
» The Apprentice: =
» Tira: +
» Voldo: =
» Xianghua: -
» Yoda: ++
» Yoshimitsu: -
» Yun-seong: =
» Zasalamel: +

Net: 0 (not including vader, yoda or algol), thus imo he's a strong candidate for mid tier based on an equal distribution of character choices.
 

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
Nice list, I agree with everything except for the + on Sieg/Nightmare. The fact that my throws whiff on them 99% of the time is very annoying and a huge handicap.
 

KoshTheKoala

[09] Warrior
Nice list, I agree with everything except for the + on Sieg/Nightmare. The fact that my throws whiff on them 99% of the time is very annoying and a huge handicap.

Well I found that they only whiff if you're both neutral and you try and throw. If you're off axis or you tap 6 then throw, you'll be in range. What happens is their large hitbox pushes you out of throw range, but you can easily run in throw range.

Also, vs Sieg, 3(B) is punishable with 3K, and if he tries to 3(B) ~ SCH A_K_B_kB_A+B_anything, 3K will CH and you'll get a 3B launcher. vs WR , same thing. vs WR AA, free 3B launcher. If he tries to stand in a stance besides SBH, you can just A+B pull him out of the stance.

Vs Nightmare, much of the same, but maybe an = is more appropriate. But neither Sieg nor Nightmare have anything decent after a forcepull, thus are forced to turtle just at -1 disadvantage to them. And both of their games are heavily throw dependent in order to land mids - their lows are few and far-between. Thus, holding G and quickly tapping A+B will mean you have a nearly perfect defense against both characters.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
I'm not so sure on NM being a bad match-up. I haven't noticed throw whiffing too much, even on edgemaster AI, but that could just be stupid luck.

What does NM have going for him in this match-up other than the SK whiffing?

It's very possible that you were landing throws because nightmare was not blocking. Keep in mind the throw whiffing problem only happens if NM is guarding. If he is guarding you will literally need to be running into him to throw him.

It is true that NM/Sieg are very reliant on throws and that apprentice can use A+B to deal with this. However, he cannot A+B break their FC grabs so they are not totally shit outta luck like say, Astaroth. Also, sieg and nm have better lows than Astaroth does (or apprentice for that matter).
 

kPc

[09] Warrior
WR (B) ~ SCH K will interrupt 3K, I recommend just a simple AA to beat that out if you feel you must.

The only move I feel apprentice will have a hard time with is sieg's agA/JagA. Covers alot of ground. and since grabs hardly work when in neutral, I recommend 9B to take down the SG alot.
 

WhiteRob

[08] Mercenary
WR (B) ~ SCH K will interrupt 3K, I recommend just a simple AA to beat that out if you feel you must.

Uh... Apprentice's A,A and 3K are the same speed (i14). I'm not sure how fast an attack needs to be to interrupt Seig's ws, SCH K string, but force pull (i12) is his fastest option out of standing guard. If the attack only needs to be i13 to interrupt, CH B+K,B,B,6B,3B into juggle would net the most damage.
 

BelovedChild

[09] Warrior
The only decent Apprentice I've played is SamEJIV...so trying to think of any advice to give you guys vs the few people having problems with Raphael.....

If you sidestep whore, and Good Raphael IS ACCUSTOMED TO THIS, and will retaliate with more VE and less Prep rushdowns. 22AA is another good step killer for Raph, but it's high and not the fastest move out there. We also like to SG crush guys who know Raphael and like to block all his tricks.

A+B force grab mixups are a pain to deal with, along with Appy's throw-proof status, shuts down Raphael's throw game, which he has a good throw game. RAPHAEL PLAYERS REALLY HATE THIS.

Appy's 44K...I swear this move only has a chance if you're online, because I can see this coming a mile away off.....-_-...I hate getting hit with this online.

Know your TCing moves, I already play Raphael in a style that doesn't push out too many highs simply because too many of my opponents LOOOOVE TCing...Cervy's WS A is one of my biggest complaints.

Ruiner