Asta Match-up List

[Chickenwing]

I noticed this wasn't on the forum so i thought we should create a thread.

Couple of things first:
1. This is not a tier thread, so do not indicate tiers or how asta should be placed.
2. this is only a discussion, i'll update the 1st post until any of the Mods create a sticky guide to go by.
3. Stay on topic
4. if you're giving a ratio, please indicate why, just don't be that guy and say Asta vs Pyrrah 8:2 because i said so.
5. Any and all anti-character suggestions are welcomed, that way whichever mod creates the sticky, they'll give an anti-strat summary on why the ratio is as what it is.



List: (asta will always be listed 1st)

Viola: Uncertain so far it's best 5.5:4.5
Cervantes - 5:5
Seigfried - 6:4


I'll update as soon as i gather more info. Thanks!

 

[Vinco]

without giving numbers, Pyrrha, PyrrhaQ and aPat are probably asta's worst matchups (all for the same reasons as Pyrrha). Sieg and nightmare are probably next (better mid-range game).

 

[Dr. Hates]

I actually think Astaroth matches up quite favorably with the Greeks... aPat is a different story, of course.

 

[Xeph]

without giving numbers, Pyrrha, PyrrhaQ and aPat are probably asta's worst matchups (all for the same reasons as Pyrrha). Sieg and nightmare are probably next (better mid-range game).

I feel Siegfried and Nightmare, the match ups, are in Astaroth's favor. Their mid range game is not as good as Astaroth's, or at least not better than. Nightmare can hurt you if you whiff. So, just try to keep a conscious mind about that, and if you don't whiff, you don't eat a lot of damage that nightmare needs. Also, bullrush hurts NM still in this game. As for Siegfried, simply space, space, space.

 

[Rikuto]

All players whiff.

The question comes down to who can punish them harder, and astaroth cant.

That's kind of a problem for a lot of matchups.

And no, bullrush is not effective punishment, and using 66b is worse than doing nothing against most characters since it does crap damage and leaves you at neutral right in their face.

 

[hardwire]

what do yall think the numbers are against natsue

i can handle every other memeber of the cast sept her she is just to damn fast and has great mix ups.

if im missing somthing please let me know.

 

[Xeph]

All players whiff.

The question comes down to who can punish them harder, and astaroth cant.

That's kind of a problem for a lot of matchups.

And no, bullrush is not effective punishment, and using 66b is worse than doing nothing against most characters since it does crap damage and leaves you at neutral right in their face.

Astaroth's whiff game is not the greatest, but it's not bad. Punishing a whiff (or anything else) with a grab attempt is, and has always been, a staple "punishment" for Astaroth. Using 66B isn't worst than doing nothing. Using 66B as a punisher, is guaranteed damage. It leaves you at neutral on NH, yes, but standing there and missing guranteed damage, leaves you at neutral as well.
As for whiff punishing, I've whiffed punished multiple players with 44A. It's not that difficult, especially when you're spacing correctly. I also whiffed punished with 44B, by using the 44B (cancels) as a spacing tool. Astaroth's punishment game is probably his worst aspect in his overall playstyle. However, not punishing shouldn't be an option.

As for bullrush, if that was directed to my comment about using bullrush VS Nightmare, I wasn't referring to use it as a punishment. You can use bullrush as an interrupt against Nightmare; and in prediction, for ag:a (which is one of Nightmare's best tools) Also, landing bullrush is effective. Bullrush on NH leaves you at +10 (if I recall correctly) which is a significant amount of advantage.

 

[Rikuto]

I completely disagree on the 66b thing. The kind of damage it gives you is inconsequential to most of his attacks, and astaroth can't afford to put himself in situations where he is at not at advantage in point blank range with a lot of characters. Hell I'd rather do something that wasn't guaranteed like b6b and create a situation where im baiting a counterhit that will take away half my opponents lifebar. Or use that pressure to do a command throw into the 4b conditioning loop, ending the fight right there if they guess wrong.


That sounds way better than getting 32 damage and then getting walked on for the rest of the round because I willingly created a situation that allowed for it to happen.

And yea, Bullrush is king against nightmare... right up until he learns that he has the ability to quickstep around it and kill you instantly if he can so much as see a wall from where he's standing. Then it becomes a horrifying liability unless you want to play rock-paper-scissors with him and throw out the safe logic game. Which, honestly, I often end up doing since he seems to have the midfield advantage and I prefer to force the issue.

more and more however I'm finding it difficult to accept the advantage bullrush gives me on NH as a decent payoff for guessing right vs the instant death he can give me in return if he calls me out on it.

 

[Xeph]

I completely disagree on the 66b thing. The kind of damage it gives you is inconsequential to most of his attacks, and astaroth can't afford to put himself in situations where he is at not at advantage in point blank range with a lot of characters. Hell I'd rather do something that wasn't guaranteed like b6b and create a situation where im baiting a counterhit that will take away half my opponents lifebar. Or use that pressure to do a command throw into the 4b conditioning loop, ending the fight right there if they guess wrong.

66B is a good punisher. It's a mid range tool. If used as a punisher, you get 32 free damage. It has clean hit properties, so you have the chance to get 40 free damage. If you punish with 66b at "point blank" range, you end up at "a BB's." range. If you use 66B as a punisher, punishing a move that left your opponent at mid range, you push them into Astaroth's grab range, if not, further. The only time you're actually at "point blank" range, after a move is successfully punished with 66B, is if their back was touching the wall/edge in the first place. This is a good punisher.

However, for the second part I can understand going for, to an extent. Grabs in substitution for a 66B (free 32dmg) can be worth the risk/reward factor, in some cases. I like to do this as well. You get the B command grab off, that's 90+ potential damage, and in certain situations, possible ring out. You get the A command grab off, that's 64+ potential damage, also ring out potential. There's still the risk of getting absolutely nothing, or worse, though.

You also mentioned "baiting a counterhit." If someone whiffs, I don't see how you "bait" a counterhit, after. The only possible way to get a counterhit after someone whiffs on you, is if your opponent is either pressing or mashing moves, right after he had whiffed and you land an attack. Or, they try to step afterwards, and you land a "step killer."

Also, I have never heard of a "4B conditioning loop." I can't really comment.

And yea, Bullrush is king against nightmare... right up until he learns that he has the ability to quickstep around it and kill you instantly if he can so much as see a wall from where he's standing. Then it becomes a horrifying liability unless you want to play rock-paper-scissors with him and throw out the safe logic game. Which, honestly, I often end up doing since he seems to have the midfield advantage and I prefer to force the issue.

I should have been more clear. Astaroth can kill a Nightmare's mid range game, and stance game, with bullrush implemented wisely.

more and more however I'm finding it difficult to accept the advantage bullrush gives me on NH as a decent payoff for guessing right vs the instant death he can give me in return if he calls me out on it.

In theory fighting, Astaroth can kill you in 2.5 grabs. The point I'm trying to make is getting bullrush to land on NH gives you 10frames of advantage. That's a lot. It's 28damage, and it's an i18 mid/long range mid. That has some tracking. It's also a TC, and safe VS everyone except aPat and Natsu. This move should be landing.

 

[Vinco]

up until he learns that he has the ability to quickstep around it and kill you instantly if he can so much as see a wall from where he's standing. Then it becomes a horrifying liability unless you want to play rock-paper-scissors with him and throw out the safe logic game. Which, honestly, I often end up doing since he seems to have the midfield advantage and I prefer to force the issue.

this is where i'm at in the NM/sieg matchup. sure, bullrush looks good on paper, but it's easily dodged and the punishes hurt. I'm of the opinion that NM/sieg completely beat asta at mid range, and there's not really much he can do about it. granted the game is still new, and some people even think the exact opposite, so we'll figure it out in the future.

 

[Rikuto]

You also mentioned "baiting a counterhit." If someone whiffs, I don't see how you "bait" a counterhit, after. The only possible way to get a counterhit after someone whiffs on you, is if your opponent is either pressing or mashing moves, right after he had whiffed and you land an attack. Or, they try to step afterwards, and you land a "step killer."

You run up and use b6b which has +2 frame advantage on block. You let it get blocked and see how they react. There is no visual effect to this attack so if the person is ignorant to the frame advantage you can bait out a counter-hit very easily. If you're near a wall, I'm sure you can see how this is more appealing option then taking the 32 damage from 66b. If you're not, it's still more appealing.

Also, I have never heard of a "4B conditioning loop." I can't really comment.

Prepare for easy wins, then.

Ways to enter the loop.

63214a+g (brave edge version can be used)
63214b+g to 28b+g (cancel frames from first throw to execute properly or miss every time)
22b(be) 28b+g

Ways to continue the loop


63214a+g (brave edge version can be used)
63214b+g to 28b+g (cancel frames from first throw to execute properly or miss every time)

Upon landing use 4b on your opponent who is laying on the floor. If he blocks right away, great. He's already trained. This gives you a deep +6 advantage when it hits and they will feel it right away. If he is still on the ground, stomp him again and again. As many times as necessary for him to stand up and block. He has NO OTHER OPTIONS. People don't like that shit and they WILL learn not to lay on the floor or crouch guard while waking up.

Next time you enter the "loop" they will be trying to stand up as fast as possible so they don't get shit stomped into oblivion again. When this happens you simply go into one of the continuation methods listed above as they will stand up lovingly into one of your throws. They will probably do this a bunch of times before they realize whats happening, but by the time thats happened you've already killed them twice over.

Fun thing is, the realization of what is happening to them does not really improve their odds of survival in this loop. They will have to do a ton of defensive guessing to survive it, and there are no visual indicators to help them out.

Every time you throw them and end it with one of those methods you will set them down at your feet, in a perfect position to either stomp or throw. As long as you keep them properly "conditioned" to respond one way, you can abuse them with the other. It's a very aggressive, very painful thing to do to a person, especially at the start of the match when you don't have a lot of meter to spend.

And with all the free stomping you'll be getting out of this, it more then makes up for the lack of 22b off of the b+g command throw.

 

[Dr. Hates]

For the sake of clarity, Nightmare gives Astaroth more 100% free bullrushes than any character in the game. It's ridiculous. It really penalizes him for trying to run his standard BS on Astaroth.

 

[Rikuto]

And astaroth gives a good nightmare player 100% more free rounds when he just steps one of them...

I'm not trying to say the bullrush can't momentarily stop the normal routine, but all it takes is one stepped bullrush and the round is over. I cannot caution enough against it. The risk-reward just does not work in our favor here. This isn't SC4 and that move does not track.

We need to be finding better strategies than this.

And before anyone asks, no I really don't have one. I'm looking every day, though.

 

[Xeph]

You run up and use b6b which has +2 frame advantage on block. You let it get blocked and see how they react. There is no visual effect to this attack so if the person is ignorant to the frame advantage you can bait out a counter-hit very easily. If you're near a wall, I'm sure you can see how this is more appealing option then taking the 32 damage from 66b. If you're not, it's still more appealing.

I believe you mean "BB6." Yes, BB6 gives you +2 frames on block. However, I fail to see how going for potential damage in a situation where you're able to get guaranteed damage, is more effective. When you land 66B, you're still at mid/grab range. Being at mid/grab range with Astaroth is where you want to be. The only way you're at close range after you land 66B is if your opponent's back was touching the edge/wall. I explained this in my previous post, and you can test yourself, via training. Also, BB6 is step-able to Astaroth's left. So, if you're playing a competent player, and you use BB6 in hopes they block it, he/she could step, and punish hard.

So let's compare...

32+ Guaranteed damage/pushes opponent in mid/grab range/neutral on hit (using 66B as a punisher)
or
Baiting a CH with BB6/potential damage/ being at+2 on block/BB6 is step-able to Astaroth's left (using BB6 after someone has whiffed, no punish)

It's obvious what the best choice is. The main factor is the guaranteed damage. Why sacrifice 32+free damage, for a move that puts Astaroth at a slight advantage, on block? Also, this move being step-able makes it a risk to throw out there. I'd rather take the guaranteed 32+damage punish, that also pushes my opponent in mid/grab range after it hits.

Prepare for easy wins, then.

Ways to enter the loop.

63214a+g (brave edge version can be used)
63214b+g to 28b+g (cancel frames from first throw to execute properly or miss every time)
22b(be) 28b+g

In Soul Calibur V, 41236B+G doesn't combo with 28B+G.

Ways to continue the loop


63214a+g (brave edge version can be used)
63214b+g to 28b+g (cancel frames from first throw to execute properly or miss every time)

Upon landing use 4b on your opponent who is laying on the floor. If he blocks right away, great. He's already trained. This gives you a deep +6 advantage when it hits and they will feel it right away. If he is still on the ground, stomp him again and again. As many times as necessary for him to stand up and block. He has NO OTHER OPTIONS. People don't like that shit and they WILL learn not to lay on the floor or crouch guard while waking up.

Next time you enter the "loop" they will be trying to stand up as fast as possible so they don't get shit stomped into oblivion again. When this happens you simply go into one of the continuation methods listed above as they will stand up lovingly into one of your throws. They will probably do this a bunch of times before they realize whats happening, but by the time thats happened you've already killed them twice over.

Fun thing is, the realization of what is happening to them does not really improve their odds of survival in this loop. They will have to do a ton of defensive guessing to survive it, and there are no visual indicators to help them out.

Every time you throw them and end it with one of those methods you will set them down at your feet, in a perfect position to either stomp or throw. As long as you keep them properly "conditioned" to respond one way, you can abuse them with the other. It's a very aggressive, very painful thing to do to a person, especially at the start of the match when you don't have a lot of meter to spend.

This "4B Conditioning loop" you're talking about is called "using 4b on oki." Using 4B can be pretty smart, in some cases. As you said, on hit it leaves you at +6. However, on block, you're at -8 and in "point blank" range. Though, personally, I'm not worried about being in "point blank" range with Astaroth. You've made it clear that you don't like to be at "point blank" range whilst using Astaroth. Really, 4b on oki is good... but I don't think it's as dangerous, or as scary as you imply. Just block it when he does it, and leave the Astaroth user at -8 frames. In fact, aPat gets a free CE if he blocks this.

In a lot of cases, there's a lot of better oki options you can use besides 4B. I would personally only do 4B, if you are in close range from the start, and you think the opponent may wake up and attack. Otherwise, you have more damaging moves that will kill roll/and push the opponent farther away. Or, if you predict they'll block, go for a move that break guard?

And with all the free stomping you'll be getting out of this, it more then makes up for the lack of 22b off of the b+g command throw.

Lack of? Why would you have a lack of 22_88B after the B+G command throw? That's 80+ damage you missed out on. Are you saying you sacrifice an 80+ damage combo to use 4b on oki after getting his B+G command grab?

 

[Xeph]

And astaroth gives a good nightmare player 100% more free rounds when he just steps one of them...

I'm not trying to say the bullrush can't momentarily stop the normal routine, but all it takes is one stepped bullrush and the round is over. I cannot caution enough against it. The risk-reward just does not work in our favor here. This isn't SC4 and that move does not track.

This is why I said earlier, "Using bullrush wisely." You're missing the point, Astaroth's bullrush can be implemented on NM, and as Hates said, penalize him hard. Bullrush kills every option NM has in Night Stance (NS). All those NM shenanigans that can work on a lot of characters, get stuffed by bullrush. We're not saying just blindly throw bullrush out there, and NM will die. We're saying implement bullrush better VS Nightmare, and you'll understand how bad it kills a lot of Nightmare's options.

Oh, and yes, Bullrush has some tracking to it still; especially if the person isn't quick stepping.

 

[Dr. Hates]

And astaroth gives a good nightmare player 100% more free rounds when he just steps one of them...

I'm not trying to say the bullrush can't momentarily stop the normal routine, but all it takes is one stepped bullrush and the round is over. I cannot caution enough against it. The risk-reward just does not work in our favor here. This isn't SC4 and that move does not track.

Stepping against Astaroth is definitely key, but Nightmare's not a very good character. The matchup is highly in Astaroth's favor.

Oh, and yes, Bullrush has some tracking to it still; especially if the person isn't quick stepping.

One concept people need to adjust to is the way in which step and quick step work in SCV. Specifically, you can cancel movement into moves near-instantly. What this means (and I catch myself doing this all the damn time) is that you can begin stepping, see a vert like bullrush, then try to punish too early, thus moving yourself back into its path. Deeply frustrating, but I think as people get more disciplined about not pressing buttons too early bullrush will lose a lot of its "semi-tracking."

 

[Rikuto]

This is why I said earlier, "Using bullrush wisely." You're missing the point, Astaroth's bullrush can be implemented on NM, and as Hates said, penalize him hard.

I hate when people do this... you assume if you stick the words "use wisely" next to something it automatically becomes a good move or tactic. Look I'm wisely using Demented Moon, suddenly it's a good!

When a good player starts to PASSIVELY disarm your bullrush and kill you instantly every time it gets stepped, your wise nature will have absolutely no answer as to what to do next. You'll be cursing yourself for even having that crutch in your movelist.

In Soul Calibur V, 41236B+G doesn't combo with 28B+G.

Yes it does, but only if you cancel recovery frames of the first throw. Try using 28B+G just after Astaroth is tossing the victim into the air, and before his arm goes back down and you'll see it come out early. Do it too late and it won't come out until all the recovery animation is complete, you'll miss it every time.

The ability to mix up both command throws and put the person right back into the same starting point creates the loop. That's the difference between just randomly stomping clowns with 4b.

Lack of? Why would you have a lack of 22_88B after the B+G command throw? That's 80+ damage you missed out on. Are you saying you sacrifice an 80+ damage combo to use 4b on oki after getting his B+G command grab?

ROFL no. If there is a wall it changes things, but in open space? Yea right.

63214b+g 22b(be) 66b combo does around 84-97 damage depending on clean hit, and puts the opponent back at a distance where they are effectively safe from further attack.

63214b+g 28b+g can do from 67-84 damage (also depending on clean hit), and puts the person in a position for 4b (which does another 20 if it lands) or another throw which will double the damage you just did (and give ya some pringles if its broken).

Take a guess which option is better?

You've made it clear that you don't like to be at "point blank" range whilst using Astaroth. Really, 4b on oki is good... but I don't think it's as dangerous, or as scary as you imply. Just block it when he does it, and leave the Astaroth user at -8 frames. In fact, aPat gets a free CE if he blocks this.

If I'm at point blank range and accomplishing something, great. I just don't approve of going there at disadvantage when you're not even setting anything up. That's just asking to get abused, he isn't exactly a super fast guy and the fast stuff he does have isn't really great for the space generation you'll need to get the hell out once you're in.

Apat's CE comes out in 8 frames? I'd say that's broken, but his CE also does trash damage and leaves him with basically no wakeup potential so whatever. If that's the best way he can spend a full meter then god bless him, I guess.

 

[Inori DWF]

It seems to me that Rikuto is playing Astaroth SCIV style. The way Astaroth was programmed to deal with situations now is more in favor at mid-long range, not point blank. Therefore the 4B oki cycle has been severely nerfed unless you are on point with it. His grabs are still strong yes, but from what I have played he strongly benefits from using the throws to space them back out of range, and not to create oki situations.

As for the NM match-up, NM is at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to Astaroth. Bullrush pretty much eliminates all of NM faux pressure with GS if used properly and doesn't really give him a chance to mount an offense. A good NM will start to turtle while waiting for Astaroth to whiff moves and punish accordingly. Sidestepping bullrush with NM is key I agree since his movement is very good in this game, but trying to step an i18 mid with some tracking takes some pretty good reaction time. This means NM has a harder time gaining advantage when Astaroth simply has to bait out step from NM and do something simple like 4A CH into low grab.

As for the APat thing. Being punished for something that is -8 for like 40-60 dmg or something is extremely scary for an Astaroth player..especially when you are almost dead. On paper this means that you are not allowed to whiff and do anything less safe than -7. Imo that is complete BS, but JG may become a factor for this match-up so that Asta can mount an offense VS Apat near the end of a fight.

 

[Oboro]

If you're at the wall you definitely don't wanna follow up his B command grab with 22B. I'll take the 50% + damage wall shenanigans combo there. But in the open, I think you'd be crazy to give up the guaranteed damage for a 50/50. Even if the opponent is further away, you have decent options for reward with 44B cancel mix ups or 66[K] and 44[A] to pound away at their guard meter. There's still some viable options with benefits and along the side the guaranteed damage of the 22B follow up which make it the better option for my play style.

 

[Rikuto]

If I was playing the game SCIV style I'd be bullrushing.

I'm trying to eliminate that from my movelist more than anything.