if you have meter you do 22B BE and go into the same wall shenanigans
Asta Match-up List
- Thread starter Chickenwing
- Start date
if you have meter you do 22B BE and go into the same wall shenanigans
- Admin
- #22
Xeph
#TRYHARD
I'm not wanting to be an ass, and didn't want to say anything at first, but you use a lot of words as "sentence enhancers."
Anyways, you're either completely misunderstanding me, or your choosing to not to be proven wrong. It's a fact that bullrush is a great tool against Nightmare. It kills all of nightmare's options in stance. It also kills his GS Shenanigans, as Jargen mentioned. I'm not saying throw out bullrush and hope it lands- I said use bullrush wisely. And using bullrush wisely VS Nightmare would mean kill the NM's GS shenanigans, and his stance options with bullrush.
Well, I've played great players. A lot of them. Some who happen to use Nightmare. If/when said player steps bullrush, adapting will be my answer from my "wise nature." However, that's not the point. Implementing bullrush against NM wisely (refer to above comments) was, and has been, my point. You can test it in training, if you don't want to believe me still.
So, please clarify where the "lack of" 22_88B is from. Why would there be a "lack of"
Well, Let's see...
80+free damage, and spacing your opponent out. Which is perfect for Astaroth.
Or 60+ damage, with only a potential damage follow up; and a definite risk/reward factor.
Personally, I would go for the 80+guaranteed damage, which leaves the opponent in farther range. You mentioned landing 4B would get you an extra 20dmg. 60+20=80. And that's only potential 20 extra damage. Also, the risk/reward factor like I stated. If you're mixing up with a command grab, those can be broken. They can also be ducked, and punished. The safer route would be to get your 80+damage, and put the opponent in a range more comfortable (or, at least it should be) with Astaroth's playstyle.
I'm not saying going for 4b on Oki with a grab game mix up is a bad idea. I do it myself. I'm just pointing out the better option, here.
Wait... since when was using 66b as a punisher (meaning it will hit, for 32+free damage) and leaving you at grab range after the hit, and at neutral, ever a disadvantage for Astaroth? How does this not set up for a grab/mid range mix up? Or anything else, for that matter?
Getting 50dmg off of a blocked bullrush is no way trash.
Rikuto
[10] Knight
All a part of my grand scheme to make my sentences appear more enhanced than everybody else's.
28b+g. I thought I explained this pretty well already, unless you're still in disbelief that it can connect.
I know what bullrush can do. I also know that payoff you get for it landing is not equal to the risk you take in using it at neutral. What exactly do you think you're stopping with it besides some goofy SNS tactics?
In most situations you're still going to get bullrush stuffed by nightmares K or A coming out of GS (A will auto GI in many cases). If you wanna do that you're playing rock paper scissors, and there is nothing "wise" about dumbing your game down to that. That leaves its sole guaranteed use relegated to combating SNS, which nightmare shouldn't even be using against astaroth to begin with.
You're slower than most of the cast. Even at neutral you're effectively at a disadvantage unless you're relying super hard on 6a, which has the range of a sneeze. And if you were anywhere but right in the face of your opponent when you did 66b, 6a isn't going to reach them to make itself an effective mixup. On the other hand, you're still very much in the short-range grasp of people like natsu, pyrrah, apat, mitsurugi, cervantes, etc. You're at the perfect distance for characters with backswaying attacks to take advantage of you too.
If you really wanted to push the mixup you could, but that's even worse than the nightmare GS scenario because now you're playing rock paper scissors and you're only allowed to pick rock.
Something tells me your better option isn't going to win a lot of tournaments, but use whatever you're comfortable with. The game is young and someone may yet prove me wrong. They won't, but I mean, yea. Go for it.
if it came down to the wire i'd sure like to have that option. Even so, I could think of better uses for that meter the majority of the fight. The threat that kind of damage represents certainly isn't going to dissuade me from doing anything.
Oboro
Namunamunamuna...
Or you can just catch and throw them at the wall after the command grab to start the shenanigans with no meter.
- Admin
- #26
Xeph
#TRYHARD
What I should have said is that you use words incorrectly :/.
Still am. You'll have to show me via footage.
As I stated, several times before, I'm not saying throw bullrush out there and hope it lands. Using it to interrupt GS shenanigans, and NM stancing wouldn't be throwing it out at neutral. You seem to read over this part, quite a bit.
also, you're at +10 on NH when bullrush lands. Or KND on CH, and even FC 3K will KND on NH.
Wait, what? GS A is a high. If you bullrush correctly, it should be TCing. And I believe, in most cases, bullrush stuffs GS K setups.
No you're not... At mid/grab range, on neutral, Astaroth isn't at disadvantage. Being at Mid/grab range, on neutral, is ten folds better than being in close range, at -8. Also... you do have the options to backstep/sidestep/ or block.
Well, I haven't entered a tournament, yes; but I played in NorCal against, last weekend, against the best of the best, and did very well (not losing a single Money Match) I guess this proves you wrong.
If you know how aPat works, you know he doesn't need his BE's as much as other characters. Using CE to puinish bullrush is very effective.
Oboro
Namunamunamuna...
Thanks I'll check it out!
Inori DWF
[10] Knight
On the contrary, you won't be winning any tournaments because you refuse to see where you can improve your game. You've been proven which option is better and still try to prove Xeph wrong? Sounds to me like you're butt hurt. You are wrong. There is not much more to it. If you can win a tourney via using your set-ups then go ahead and show us. Or are you not confident in your own skills to even try?
Rikuto
[10] Knight
GS A is an auto-gi that will reflect the bullrush when setup after certain attacks (nightmares "unsafe" shoulder, for example).
Although bullrush would normally go under a high, because the auto-GI is in effect before the attack portion of the move it will put astaroth in a state where he can be hit. This works more often when the move transitioning into GS happens to put nightmare at heavy disadvantage.
On the same ticket, when he uses safer moves he is more likely to stuff your bullrush with GS K. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. The "safest" option against GS is to try to Just Guard one of his attacks coming out of it and punish him, only.... you're astaroth. So what are you gonna punish with?
Seriously? I don't own a capture card, which means I gota bug someone else just to prove a point that you should be able to prove to yourself by taking a couple minutes out of your day and going into training mode. That's kinda dumb.
First of all, you only need to get them in the habit of blocking 4b. You don't need to put yourself at -8 every single time or it'd defeat the purpose.
Secondly, you're having a false sense of superiority after punishing with 66B.
All you've set up is a game of rock-paper-scissors where your throws are not a valid option as most everything will beat them out, and your potentially damaging moves like 6b will be slower than anything your opponent does as well. Your opponent does not suffer the same constraints as you do and can take advantage of the situation far better. Why would you set up such a poor situation for only 32 damage? The only thing you can safely do here is block.
Yea and I came in second at a tournament with the best buffalo and toronto had to offer. That doesn't prove anything in relation to what I said either though. You played some mysterious players who you have not named which you believe are the best, and won an undisclosed number of money matches during week 2 of a new fighting game.
Start winning regionals when the game is more than a few months in and people have both knowledge of your character, and the practice necessary to fight him. That would actually prove your gameplan is solid.
I'm sure if he abused it enough that tickle might eventually turn into a bee sting. Too bad it consumes a full bar of meter.
Talking mess I see. You're calling me out to go to tournaments that I'm already going to. Good job with the smack talk, you really showed me.
MichaelJackson
[14] Master
So 28B+G lands after 634B+Gs, however it's like an exception to Astaroth's throw recovery animation or something. I had some trouble figuring out that you need to do the 28B+G BEFORE you assume he's recovered from his throwing animation and can now get it consistently.
On a related note if you input the 28B+G exceptionally fast (like the frame they leave Astaroth's hand) you'll grab them and turn around mid air.
This does bring up an interesting topic about SCV Astaroth though, do you want the opponent near you or farther away?
In previous incarnations of the series the B Command grab had two main follow ups.
Followup #1 was the good 'ol 22_88B. Has more damage and knocks the person away, but leaves Astaroth with little to no actual follow up.
Followup #2 was 4[ B]. This was comparable damage (much like our new 28G+B follow up [also don't do this in SCV as the 4 knocks the opponent out of "2nd headbutt" range and it's only 60 damage now]) and lead to a possible additional headbutt for extra damage if they laid there or another throw if they woke up into it.
This all breaks down to, though, if you want your opponent near you or not and, quite frankly, I do NOT. I find myself almost scared to have faster (and much more annoying) characters in my face as Astaroth doesn't really have that many reliable options to catch people that are all up in your business and his long range game is still fantastic.
All personal preference though, I don't see a right way or a wrong way to follow up 634G+Bs out of these two options, so let's all shake hands, share a pitcher of beer, and just use whichever one fits your playstyle.
SOMEONE GIVE ME A COOKIE. I AM A FAT GUY AND NEED IMMEDIATE REWARDS.
On a related note if you input the 28B+G exceptionally fast (like the frame they leave Astaroth's hand) you'll grab them and turn around mid air.
This does bring up an interesting topic about SCV Astaroth though, do you want the opponent near you or farther away?
In previous incarnations of the series the B Command grab had two main follow ups.
Followup #1 was the good 'ol 22_88B. Has more damage and knocks the person away, but leaves Astaroth with little to no actual follow up.
Followup #2 was 4[ B]. This was comparable damage (much like our new 28G+B follow up [also don't do this in SCV as the 4 knocks the opponent out of "2nd headbutt" range and it's only 60 damage now]) and lead to a possible additional headbutt for extra damage if they laid there or another throw if they woke up into it.
This all breaks down to, though, if you want your opponent near you or not and, quite frankly, I do NOT. I find myself almost scared to have faster (and much more annoying) characters in my face as Astaroth doesn't really have that many reliable options to catch people that are all up in your business and his long range game is still fantastic.
All personal preference though, I don't see a right way or a wrong way to follow up 634G+Bs out of these two options, so let's all shake hands, share a pitcher of beer, and just use whichever one fits your playstyle.
SOMEONE GIVE ME A COOKIE. I AM A FAT GUY AND NEED IMMEDIATE REWARDS.
Rikuto
[10] Knight
Ding ding ding, we've got a winner.
Before anyone gets any ideas though, no. You are not going to get ringouts using this method. Not consistently, at least.
- Admin
- #33
Xeph
#TRYHARD
Well, I'm in training mode. I just had Nightmare do 66K (the unsafe shoulder you mentioned) in GS A. I punished bullrush in three different "reaction times". The first time I used bullrush after nightmare's 66K GS A, was fast. It landed a CH. The second time, I delayed my input of bullrush, and still managed to get CH. The third time, was a whole lot slower, and I got a NH punish with bullrush after Nightmare's 66K6 (GS) A.
As for GS K (We'll say after NM's 66K) can stuff bullrush. However, with fast reaction time, for after NM 66K6 k, you can still interrupt with bullrush. Though, this is why Astaroth has 6K. Of course, this is theory fighting.
Nah, not too serious. But thanks, Vinco. Two people assures me. I apologize, my timing for it must be horrible. And thanks for the info, rikuto, vinco.
Okay, before we continue, let's recap on what the main discussion is at hand. Here's a quote of your first post in this thread...
As I proved in previous posts... 66B, when used as a punisher, pushes the opponent far enough to be in MID range/grab range. With 32+ damage, on hit. Also, leaving you at o on HIT. You are Astaroth, and being at MID and/or grab range is where you want to be. I really don't want to drag on into theory fighting anymore... but, I wouldn't describe a 66B punish as a "poor situation for only 32 damage."
I agree, though. Blocking is a good options afterwards. :)
Well, I'm not trying to throws 1week old credentials or anything... I was kind of just making a point with my last statement towards this. Anyways, I don't need to name people I've beaten to be right about what strategies will work offline, in a tournament, in a money match, or in casuals. Facts remain...
110+ potential damage in the last round fight VS aPat, if he lands a 2A on NH or CH, or he punishes bullrush, or... if he punishes... well, everything. It's rough.
EDIT:
Also, I may just agree to disagree from this point. I don't want to fuel theory fighting anymore than I already have. MichaelJackson's post says it all. Both are viable options.
ShinJin
[09] Warrior
66k, will TC every high in the game with ease from frame 2 or 3, 66k~BE however does not TC at all and will be hit by all highs.
Salizburg
[08] Mercenary
Also felt like doing a bit of testing on Bullrush vs. NSS/GS stuff
From a blocked WR [ B] from Nightmare, Bullrush beats NSS K and NSS A+B clean, punishes them if they cancel the stance with guard, and also punishes WR B without the stance transition.
From a blocked 66K6 from Nightmare, a slightly charged Bullrush can beat both GS A and GS K with what feels like the same charge time (don't know if that's helpful, but worth testing some more I suppose), though Nightmare can guard after the stance transition. I was also able to beat GS K with FC 3K here, it's pretty tight though.
Nightmare's 33B6 is actually a stronger stance transition on block than 66K6 though. Bullrush beats GS A but loses to GS K. Messed around some and found that Asta's 6K beats GS A with a counterhit and trades with GS K, and punishes the move with or without the stance transition. You can also get a counterhit 6A,A on both GS A and K here, but Nightmare can just crouch after the stance to avoid the highs.
From a blocked WR [ B] from Nightmare, Bullrush beats NSS K and NSS A+B clean, punishes them if they cancel the stance with guard, and also punishes WR B without the stance transition.
From a blocked 66K6 from Nightmare, a slightly charged Bullrush can beat both GS A and GS K with what feels like the same charge time (don't know if that's helpful, but worth testing some more I suppose), though Nightmare can guard after the stance transition. I was also able to beat GS K with FC 3K here, it's pretty tight though.
Nightmare's 33B6 is actually a stronger stance transition on block than 66K6 though. Bullrush beats GS A but loses to GS K. Messed around some and found that Asta's 6K beats GS A with a counterhit and trades with GS K, and punishes the move with or without the stance transition. You can also get a counterhit 6A,A on both GS A and K here, but Nightmare can just crouch after the stance to avoid the highs.
CyanST
[08] Mercenary
If you do the 28B+G too fast after the command B+G throw, you will go under the oponent missing it totally heh. if you do it at some early point, you will jump up and forward, pick the oponent and fly back to your initial position hehe, i tried doing RO with it but i cant get close enough for it to work, got some side wallsplats tho.
As for Bullrush going under GS A, you will get Auto GIed if you dont charge it a bit (if you know its comming).
Ive been using BT B+K to deal with oponents who SS my Bullrush since SC4, and it stills works pretty well, leading to a crouch throw if you get him with the BT B+K CH. NM 22_88 B is a diferent story, kinda similar to 66B from Sieg.
As for Bullrush going under GS A, you will get Auto GIed if you dont charge it a bit (if you know its comming).
Ive been using BT B+K to deal with oponents who SS my Bullrush since SC4, and it stills works pretty well, leading to a crouch throw if you get him with the BT B+K CH. NM 22_88 B is a diferent story, kinda similar to 66B from Sieg.
- Admin
- #37
Xeph
#TRYHARD
After getting BT B+K, I'd recommend following up with 22_88K 22_88B , leading to heavy damage. This way, you get guaranteed damage, and more damage than using the crouch throw in this situation.
KDZaster
[09] Warrior
I THINK RIKUTO IS RIGHT ALSO XEPH IS RIGHT. Because playstyles can diverge, while both yielding similar results. Ah, the wonders of a 1v1 competition!
Xeph is playing a more methodical style ala Mayweather. Get all the guaranteed damage you can, let nothing go, space correctly, make them block things they don't want to. It allows for bad guesses and mistakes to be less costly.
Rikuto is playing a chancy risk/reward game, which can yield extreme highs and staggering lows. This style favors a player who can make death defying reads more, and the reward is a quick handshake. Much more akin to Pacquiao.
Being wrong or right in a situation that sets up a strong 50-50 vs guaranteed damage will forever be the competitors argument. "That was a free jab, but he took the chance on the big right."
Also, Norcal the best of the best? Refer to my avatar.
Xeph is playing a more methodical style ala Mayweather. Get all the guaranteed damage you can, let nothing go, space correctly, make them block things they don't want to. It allows for bad guesses and mistakes to be less costly.
Rikuto is playing a chancy risk/reward game, which can yield extreme highs and staggering lows. This style favors a player who can make death defying reads more, and the reward is a quick handshake. Much more akin to Pacquiao.
Being wrong or right in a situation that sets up a strong 50-50 vs guaranteed damage will forever be the competitors argument. "That was a free jab, but he took the chance on the big right."
Also, Norcal the best of the best? Refer to my avatar.
- Admin
- #39
Xeph
#TRYHARD
I should have said, "Norcal's best of the best."
I haven't played anyone on the EC/Central for SCV, yet. Can't judge.
KDZaster
[09] Warrior
<3 you, you seem ever humble. I'm told you drive 3 hours for casuals, kudos.