Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
Will we get entry music? I want Cochise by Audioslave
Attention Cervantes players
- Thread starter HouseofMC
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Eli123s
when it rains, it pours
Oh the hypocrisy here...
Why do you think Cery 3B is fine the way it is. Other character's 3B, e.g Pat, Pyrrha(although the push back need to go), Omega, Mistu etc are stab punishable. And Cery's 3B operate very similarly to these character, leading to very good damage combo on normal hit and can CE combo too. So I don't understand why you think Cery 3B should be exempt and only be AA punishable.
There just odd things with this character like CH 33B Clean Hit, 3B doing 100 damage.
Or 22K a move that tracks and beat verticals/horizontals/body attacks, and its safe, +on hit, KND on CH/ GI.
In the end it doesn't really matter. It's in the game and we have to deal with it unless Namco wants to change it.
But on the the more prudent issue which is all Cery players have serious temper tantrum. No really, everyone reading this just take a moment and look at who uses Cery as their main. All of them have anger issue. I can contest to this after playing rageman franman. And we all know Americans + Cery = Complete Disaster, no need to name names here. Plus I am sure this is Docvizzo's reaction when reading Cery nerfs.
Anyway carry on with your discussion. This entertainment only rivals that of the Lexia forums
Why do you think Cery 3B is fine the way it is. Other character's 3B, e.g Pat, Pyrrha(although the push back need to go), Omega, Mistu etc are stab punishable. And Cery's 3B operate very similarly to these character, leading to very good damage combo on normal hit and can CE combo too. So I don't understand why you think Cery 3B should be exempt and only be AA punishable.
There just odd things with this character like CH 33B Clean Hit, 3B doing 100 damage.
Or 22K a move that tracks and beat verticals/horizontals/body attacks, and its safe, +on hit, KND on CH/ GI.
In the end it doesn't really matter. It's in the game and we have to deal with it unless Namco wants to change it.
But on the the more prudent issue which is all Cery players have serious temper tantrum. No really, everyone reading this just take a moment and look at who uses Cery as their main. All of them have anger issue. I can contest to this after playing rageman franman. And we all know Americans + Cery = Complete Disaster, no need to name names here. Plus I am sure this is Docvizzo's reaction when reading Cery nerfs.
Anyway carry on with your discussion. This entertainment only rivals that of the Lexia forums
Heisenberg
[08] Mercenary
To get somewhat back on topic, as other people have said it is the range of 1AB that is its weakness. That isn't to say that its not a great move, because it is. I can see why Maxou, for example, gets really upset by Cerv's 1AB as well if he plays aPat, I imagine he is very often trying to get in range where 1AB is effective.
Please try not to let it get to you too much though, because that is when emotion takes over and silly things like the -15 3B get suggested without them really being thought through, in the context of the character that owns the move, the way he plays and what it would mean for the rest of his matches. I still say leave the game alone for a good while - but if we really want to make the game a more positive experience, we'll have to do better than suggestions like that 3B change!
Please try not to let it get to you too much though, because that is when emotion takes over and silly things like the -15 3B get suggested without them really being thought through, in the context of the character that owns the move, the way he plays and what it would mean for the rest of his matches. I still say leave the game alone for a good while - but if we really want to make the game a more positive experience, we'll have to do better than suggestions like that 3B change!
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
docvizzo
[14] Master
It needs to be safe because 80% of his other moves are stab punishable. Isnt that somehow something to be considered? Do you think Cervantes should get stabbed for ANY offensive move that isnt super slow?
lobo
Luminario
all i want is for iGDR to count as tech jump. i swear if i get grabbed out of it one more time...
eli, "safe" 3b is good for him. he has no other safe tools to launch or close forward distance. he has no step kill that isn't terribly slow and/or unsafe. the damage that he gets off 3b (requiring JF inputs that, if missed, are often instant suicide) is not even that great, and is comparable to what many characters get far more easily. most characters can get near the same damage without risking a self RO or sacrificing their oki game completely. hell, ivy can get almost the same damage with zero risk of flying away, and still maintain her oki game.
he has a decent punisher in aB, but for what damage? the risk of throwing out unsafe launchers against him is largely trivial, when 3/4 of the cast can get upwards of 100 dmg and he can only punish them for around 40.
i've been hearing, since day one, that cervy is SS/top/A/broken tier. that is so much bullshit. he can't get in throw range safely. he can't kill step safely. he has zero decent safe lows. his movement is mediocre at best. most importantly, he can't control space and force guesses/reads (whatever you want to call them) as well as the majority of the cast of characters. has ANY cervy won a single notable event? top 3? on paper, he may be good, but in practice he struggles very hard against the "guessguessguessguess" nature of SC5 because of his lack of safety.
3b is the only tool he has to offset that.
eli, "safe" 3b is good for him. he has no other safe tools to launch or close forward distance. he has no step kill that isn't terribly slow and/or unsafe. the damage that he gets off 3b (requiring JF inputs that, if missed, are often instant suicide) is not even that great, and is comparable to what many characters get far more easily. most characters can get near the same damage without risking a self RO or sacrificing their oki game completely. hell, ivy can get almost the same damage with zero risk of flying away, and still maintain her oki game.
he has a decent punisher in aB, but for what damage? the risk of throwing out unsafe launchers against him is largely trivial, when 3/4 of the cast can get upwards of 100 dmg and he can only punish them for around 40.
i've been hearing, since day one, that cervy is SS/top/A/broken tier. that is so much bullshit. he can't get in throw range safely. he can't kill step safely. he has zero decent safe lows. his movement is mediocre at best. most importantly, he can't control space and force guesses/reads (whatever you want to call them) as well as the majority of the cast of characters. has ANY cervy won a single notable event? top 3? on paper, he may be good, but in practice he struggles very hard against the "guessguessguessguess" nature of SC5 because of his lack of safety.
3b is the only tool he has to offset that.
J
JustinAkatsuki
Guest
I never did felt cervy was top tier anyway...maybe a good high tier yeah. And 3B should be left alone..wish people would leave his 3b alone.
crow_winters
[11] Champion
That's the way everyone else in the game plays. You act like he's the only one in the game that gets stabbed by Greeks, lol.
What's so special about Cervy again that justifies the best 3b/low in the game?
Which, to my next point...
Girls, GIRLS, YOU'RE BOTH PRETTY.
by which i mean, both your characters are stupid.
lobo
Luminario
they are indeed beautiful, aren't they?
on topic; he has the best low in the game? that is news to me. when i think "best low in the game", i think of mitsu 2k. i think of algol bubble trap 11a. i think of that fucked up aeon low that looks so bizarre. i think of leix and all her low string trickery. i think of damp and his bullshitbullshitbullshit. i think of natsu bombs. i think of greekwhore 1k. i think of NM "crazy wtf range" 1k or 2k or whatever it is. i think of that tira BE move that rapes me. i think of viola's 2k into throw bullshitbullshitbullshit. i think of pat and his 1k/66b garbage. i think of asty getting 2a as a tech trap with 22b mixup options. i think of devil jin and his "why the fuck is this in this game?" hellsweep. i think of oprah's tech jumping, stunning 1k. i think of yoshi and his bullshit tech crouching, side stepping 214a and his DF mixups. i think of aPat and his 1aaa riffraff. i think of kilik and elisium and how stupid they are as wasted character space. i think of sc2/3 hwang and 3a and what a truly good low is.
i think of many things. what i never consider, though, is a mediocre range tap that is -24 and gets completely raped on block by the entire cast.
still, they are beautiful.
on topic; he has the best low in the game? that is news to me. when i think "best low in the game", i think of mitsu 2k. i think of algol bubble trap 11a. i think of that fucked up aeon low that looks so bizarre. i think of leix and all her low string trickery. i think of damp and his bullshitbullshitbullshit. i think of natsu bombs. i think of greekwhore 1k. i think of NM "crazy wtf range" 1k or 2k or whatever it is. i think of that tira BE move that rapes me. i think of viola's 2k into throw bullshitbullshitbullshit. i think of pat and his 1k/66b garbage. i think of asty getting 2a as a tech trap with 22b mixup options. i think of devil jin and his "why the fuck is this in this game?" hellsweep. i think of oprah's tech jumping, stunning 1k. i think of yoshi and his bullshit tech crouching, side stepping 214a and his DF mixups. i think of aPat and his 1aaa riffraff. i think of kilik and elisium and how stupid they are as wasted character space. i think of sc2/3 hwang and 3a and what a truly good low is.
i think of many things. what i never consider, though, is a mediocre range tap that is -24 and gets completely raped on block by the entire cast.
still, they are beautiful.
Also, its one of the very few 3Bs that doesn't punish -18.
Also Doc, ignore Eli, if Ivy's 214B was a + on block 100 dmg KND, he'd say it was legit, lol.
crow_winters
[11] Champion
Mitsu 2K v. Cervy 1AB - Both are unseeable and unsafe low range, both beat step, Mitsu is unsafe on hit without meter but gets high damage with meter, cervy is safe on hit and gets high damage with ch.
algol- no, honey, no. you can make a argument for 1k kind of since it's +0 on hit and safer, but that's about it.
aeon- i don't know what move you mean, as a aeon player. then again, i don't think you do either.
damp- uh.
NM- 1k. it's generic frame data/damage, he just has a pointy shoe.
natsu bombs- seeable. still really good obviousily, but not comparable in a mixup sense.
tira- seeable, although i didn't believe this for a while.
viola- well... okay with orb setups maybe i can't argue this, lol.
pat- it's up there, but it dosen't make your lifebar dissappear on it's own like ch 1ab does. that's 66b's job.
asty- no.
dj- he's not real! he's in our heads!
oprah and pyrha- weaker, lower damage versions of 1ab. oprah's is cuter.
yoshi- seeable. you can make a better argument for iFC 3K
aPat- 1a is seeable.
k/e- well.
hwang- FREE MONEYMUFFINS
i'm bored at work leave me alone :(
algol- no, honey, no. you can make a argument for 1k kind of since it's +0 on hit and safer, but that's about it.
aeon- i don't know what move you mean, as a aeon player. then again, i don't think you do either.
damp- uh.
NM- 1k. it's generic frame data/damage, he just has a pointy shoe.
natsu bombs- seeable. still really good obviousily, but not comparable in a mixup sense.
tira- seeable, although i didn't believe this for a while.
viola- well... okay with orb setups maybe i can't argue this, lol.
pat- it's up there, but it dosen't make your lifebar dissappear on it's own like ch 1ab does. that's 66b's job.
asty- no.
dj- he's not real! he's in our heads!
oprah and pyrha- weaker, lower damage versions of 1ab. oprah's is cuter.
yoshi- seeable. you can make a better argument for iFC 3K
aPat- 1a is seeable.
k/e- well.
hwang- FREE MONEYMUFFINS
i'm bored at work leave me alone :(
- Thread starter
- #93
If Cervantes is so safe and overpowered, then why isn't everyone using him? Why haven't all the top players forsaken the rest of the cast? He is top tier, but he is not alone. The game is full of viable characters with tools as good if not better then his. But saying that is pointless. No matter how much reason we pump into this thread, it just gets glossed over in favor of "nerf 33B and 22K"! WTF? Let's just take away all of his moves. If you hit a button, any button Cervantes shoots himself. But they will want that nerfed too.
ShenChan
[11] Champion
Maxou: Doc has mentioned some of the stuff. I have no issues playing a very safe Cervy you see, but is it worth it ? Against Alpha to say, Cervy has limited moves to use. It's really tough for him because his mixup is really weak, and all you have to do is to STAND there and wait for me to commit a mistake. 2K? Just twister the heck out of me. I have no lows that i can do to you (Ok maybe 1A, B but what?). You do not even need to take the initiative to be honest.. Because Alpha pat punishes everything really badly. Of course i can switch to a guard break strat using 33B, 4A etc. but that's the other side of the story. I'm not saying it's impossible, but in tournaments first to 2 sets anything can happen. It doesn't only happen with Alpha, any character with i14 CE and below gives Cervy alot of trouble.
SilentJoel: Yea so far those 2 forces you to play a totally different game plan. As for playing against characters that can punish really well, you have another set of strat.
SilentJoel: Yea so far those 2 forces you to play a totally different game plan. As for playing against characters that can punish really well, you have another set of strat.
Maxou
[11] Champion
His mix up might be really weak, but his throws are really strong. No need for more. Oh well, I'll try playing Cervantes later. To prove you wrong. I know it's wrong I already played against a good Cervy like that actually.
ShenChan
[11] Champion
crow_winters
[11] Champion
He is by far the most used tournament character in our scene here.
Eli123s
when it rains, it pours
That just the way we people are. Its just like always point the finger on someone else and not looking at our own faults. We are all guilty of that. People don't want to talk about their own character because people hate to losing something, we all get upset when we had something and then it taken away. Just look at the balancing vote/discussion threads. Although nothing is confirmed and there is no assurance anything will happening people are still very upset. And it not because of the threat of losing something but just the notion.
You missed the point it a standard 3B like the other character I have mention above. If cervantues is supposedly "high risk"/ high reward then I don't see the logic in him having 'safe' tool that can lead to big damage
So the argument Cery player present is "All Cery stuff is are unsafe, therefore 3B should be safe as a way to make things fair" This is a weak argument. The biggest problem is if 3B is "safe" all the other unsafe move become irrlevent. I mean why would you use them if you can use 3B instead and still get 95+ damage combo. This essentially doesn't make him "high risk"/high reward, but low risk/high reward.
@lobo
The thing about self RO/sacrifice oki, well that the risk involved with the move.
Ivy does not get big damage unless on CH or using meter to punish 1bBE/CE. Ivy does not have enough mete the most she can do is punish with 6B8 for 40 damage or 3B and apply oki.
This argument of Cervy has not won this major tournament(or any character for that matter) as a reason to not call him top/overpowered is a fallacy. What did we do to Hilde or Algol in SC4?. The problem with this mentality is it ignores all testing/all discussions/all practise session and treats them as irrelevant. Making only tournaments as the means of proving something is overpowered can make things look skewed. I mean do we say Nightmare is completely broken because he won some major events. If you consider both tourney/ non-tourney stuff you get a more accurate picture of where a character stands with one another.
You should note the game is not about low/mid mix up, but mid/throw mix up. Everyone good lows got nerfed, are very punishable and the damage from them is low(for the most part). Although some character have quick low pokes that are moderately unsafe, but on hit they serve as setting up mind games as they either have small advantage or disadvantage.
I don't understand why you think Cery movement is bad. Cervantes has one of the best back dashes in the game(similar to Nightmare), I guess namco thought process on that was to make his whiff punish more effective. And QS is universal.
Ivy does not get big damage unless on CH or using meter to punish 1bBE/CE. Ivy does not have enough mete the most she can do is punish with 6B8 for 40 damage or 3B and apply oki.
This argument of Cervy has not won this major tournament(or any character for that matter) as a reason to not call him top/overpowered is a fallacy. What did we do to Hilde or Algol in SC4?. The problem with this mentality is it ignores all testing/all discussions/all practise session and treats them as irrelevant. Making only tournaments as the means of proving something is overpowered can make things look skewed. I mean do we say Nightmare is completely broken because he won some major events. If you consider both tourney/ non-tourney stuff you get a more accurate picture of where a character stands with one another.
You should note the game is not about low/mid mix up, but mid/throw mix up. Everyone good lows got nerfed, are very punishable and the damage from them is low(for the most part). Although some character have quick low pokes that are moderately unsafe, but on hit they serve as setting up mind games as they either have small advantage or disadvantage.
I don't understand why you think Cery movement is bad. Cervantes has one of the best back dashes in the game(similar to Nightmare), I guess namco thought process on that was to make his whiff punish more effective. And QS is universal.
Synrail, for someone who trolls or tries to troll that was pretty lame. I don't know may be it just a UK thing and you guys aren't good at conveying jokes.
I just find it remarkably ironic that you would call anyone here a hypocrite when your take on SCV seems to be:
nerf everyone, buff ivy.
Eli123s
when it rains, it pours
Yea you got me. Nerf everyone so that they're rendered useless, and buff Ivy so I need to press one button to win.
The rhetoric is strong in this one.
Anywho, I am in agreement with the general conscience of nerfs to Mistu, Cery, Alpha, Viola etc to be more inline with other characters. As for other character's buff/nerfs I am indifferent really. As for Ivy there were a few thing I wanted buff, but the semantics can be argued in Ivy SA or PM.
The rhetoric is strong in this one.
Anywho, I am in agreement with the general conscience of nerfs to Mistu, Cery, Alpha, Viola etc to be more inline with other characters. As for other character's buff/nerfs I am indifferent really. As for Ivy there were a few thing I wanted buff, but the semantics can be argued in Ivy SA or PM.
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