Balance Patch Discussion

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2. Critical Gauge
b) Only character first to lose 2 rounds gain bonus meter

Am I right in thinking this means that only one character gets the bonus meter and should the other character lose 2 rounds as well he wont get the bonus meter?
 
I think this exercise is rather informative actually. It can be viewed as some sort of public satisfaction survey where you can gather information regarding where players commonly think problems are from. However, discussing a poll about anything more specific than "buff their overall damage, or nerf their combo damage" may require a specific poll-of-the-week, because determining overall community consensus on specific moves requires a lot of deliberation.

Week 1: System and broad/general poll
Week 2: Alpha pat specific moves
Week 2: Cerventes specific moves
.. etc.

Its odd that some peoeple feel insulted or upset about their opinions not being accepted, but the one helming this project will have a hard time weeding out the troll/unpopular votes without being seen as negatively. I do think you're doing the right thing, but some people misinterpret your efforts as "final 8wayrun.com tournament player's say" which may bother them unjustly.

I would like to see how the results boil down after a week though, and will have contingent factors to consider that there are some troll posts.
 
Belial said:
The problem is Im fightin against the tide here. Most top players dont want to discuss stuff with "scrubs". I am alone and I will be overwhelmed eventually. Only as a single community we can overcome this and this involves top players to participate in discussions with scrubs even if its pointless/boring/frustrating. We need to unite and find a compromise. Some stuff left untouched, some patched.
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Belial said:
I fear if I start deleting those posts now I will be named an antichrist. I dont think I ever felt so much repulsion and hate as is now. I often question if Im doing the right thing at all.
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I think what upset some people is the implication that if you arent a long time / top player you are a scrub. I understand that it is important to try and keep things as civil and clean as possible but the wording used made it sound a little offensive to others. It was basically like rules for children, saying they cant argue against what their superiors say based on some kind of exclusive club membership. Having...experienced this a little myself i understand where they are coming from, a lot of other players here share the sentiment that unless you're Keev or Omega your opinion is void.

Not saying that's what you think, this whole undertaking was very good at trying to include everyone. I think some of this animosity you're receiving isnt totally justified, you're just trying to run this as smoothly as possible and some people will get offended as a result.

Kind of like how Bamco must feel cause they cant please everyone, they just have to try and find a happy medium.
 
Belial said:
what frustrates me is that game had prior to launch testing by many top players.
What they did? the run tournaments and wrote Future Press Guide.
Game out, I , Aris and many other players INSTANTLY find RETARDED GLITCHES. (remember fuzzy guard? step~G?)
I fear Namco really did the best they could. I wont blame them if no patch is coming anymore.
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To my information they had no say in balance at all plus Namco was changing the game multiple times throughout their testing. They also told Namco about Fuzzy guard etc, this was known well before the game came out. So i wouldnt blame them for this :)

I think people are forgetting Namcos super random changes. Alpha BUFF? No problem. Cervantes BUFF? SURE WHY NOT. Then when a patch comes people will whine like crazy again about WTF changes. Same shit as usual. History should have told us that Namco needs input in this matters, but now people come out and say lets leave it to Namco? WTF? Like SC4 or SC3 were balanced.
 
That whole "stand together" bit is funny when a long term member of the community offered to help and you told him it "would be best to leave the discussion to actual tourney players".

---Edit--
Where's the "can we be the next MK style patch fest" option?
 
However since this is a balance thread and not a touchy feely rage / woe is me thread i will put in my 2 cents.

Making it seem like Viola should be top priority to be nerfed is a bit extreme. She's not even widely considered to be the best in the game yet people are treating her as such, she is among the best but she's still rivaled by the likes of mitsu, cervix, and A Pat who are also really good. As well as others, but lets not go there for a moment less i get my head bitten off. The way people are acting they make it sound like she has meter-less death combos (backgrab infinite not included) and instant win buttons. She has a few problems that can be relatively easily alleviated.

For example nerfing her backgrab by only giving her 18-19 frames of advantage instead of her current +20. It would prevent her from getting 44A BE into her back grab and get rid of her back grab infinite.

Secondly i believe her high damage can be solved with simple scaling increases on several of her moves. There is no need to gimp her combo ability if the damage she's doing is severely lowered as a result of the extension. This can be adjusted with small damage nerfs to individual moves. Such as 66B, and 44A BE which could do with a small damage nerf.
 
Belial said:
Some of her tools in GS are obviously too good.
Take 3A(BE) hitconfirmable on CH, kills step, 90 dmg. ridiculously strong. I think its the best interrupt in the game. Even worse its a ridiculous punisher
Buff on her 666B(BE) is also.. debatable. Since 95 damage + good wakeup of a single BE makes her 3B by far the best in the game (fast, TC possible to input as 3B AND 33_99B).
I wont even start on how powerful 666B(BE) buff made 4K. With this and 3A GS Tira JG game is also the best in the game.
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i get what you're saying but compare her few good (only GS) moves as to a whole moveset from another character. look at mitsu. a lot of his verticals track, he still has that god awful (personal opinion) 2KB, and let's not forget he can take down 50% with 2-3 decent hits. Tira still has to have the luck to be in GS which i said project soul makes it very hard to be in. i'll have a whole round where i'll finally get into GS and get hit once right afterwards and get knocked right back out. and not to mention that if you change from a series of quick hits then you could miss that you changed stances. that's happened to me twice yesterday and both times resulted in a loss for me on that round. GS tira has to have a least some good moves in GS to offset the horrible JS. i think tira deserves at least that much. oh and not to mention dropped combos because the 66B(BE) doesn't guarantee stance change anymore.
 
0VincentRayne0 said:
i get what you're saying but compare her few good (only GS) moves as to a whole moveset from another character. look at mitsu. a lot of his verticals track, he still has that god awful (personal opinion) 2KB, and let's not forget he can take down 50% with 2-3 decent hits. Tira still has to have the luck to be in GS which i said project soul makes it very hard to be in. i'll have a whole round where i'll finally get into GS and get hit once right afterwards and get knocked right back out. and not to mention that if you change from a series of quick hits then you could miss that you changed stances. that's happened to me twice yesterday and both times resulted in a loss for me on that round. GS tira has to have a least some good moves in GS to offset the horrible JS. i think tira deserves at least that much. oh and not to mention dropped combos because the 66B(BE) doesn't guarantee stance change anymore.
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I think what Tira would benefit most from is by lowering the difference in power between Jolly and Gloomy. Rather than make Gloomy absurdly powerful and Jolly incredibly bad. Gloomy could lose a bit of damage and still be great, and Jolly could gain some safety and speed while still being the weaker stance. And personally i think the rate at which Tira gets hit into Jolly from Gloomy would be satisfactory if BEs guaranteed persona changes. Pre patch Tira could stay in Gloomy for most of the match due to BEs and she wasnt hit back into Jolly very often. However now it seems like a single poke will change her back to Jolly.
 
taffertier said:
I think what Tira would benefit most is by lowering the difference in power between Jolly and Gloomy. Rather than make Gloomy absurdly powerful and Jolly incredibly bad. Gloomy could lose a bit of damage and still be great, and Jolly could gain some safety and speed while still being the weaker stance. And personally i think the rate at which Tira gets hit into Jolly from Gloomy would be satisfactory if BEs guaranteed persona changes. Pre patch Tira could stay in Gloomy for most of the match due to BEs and she wasnt hit back into Jolly very often. However now it seems like a single poke will change her back to Jolly.
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never thought about that. seems like a very good idea though. i would jump back on the SC5 train if that were to happen too.
 
Belial, can you hook me up with some Tira vids that show off what you are talking about? I would love to see a really good Tira player abusing the things you just mentioned. If it's really possible to do everything you said I would love to see it.

I don't know much about Tira so I'm not going to call bs or anything. I'm just genuinely curious now.
 
Belial said:
Tira even after JS nerf is one of the best chars in the game. I think she need more nerf
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No.

I'm only in this thread to comment on Tira after being informed of this post.

Belial said:
Some of her tools in GS are obviously too good.
Take 3A(BE) hitconfirmable on CH, kills step, 90 dmg. ridiculously strong. I think its the best interrupt in the game. Even worse its a ridiculous punisher
Buff on her 666B(BE) is also.. debatable. Since 95 damage + good wakeup of a single BE makes her 3B by far the best in the game (fast, TC possible to input as 3B AND 33_99B).
I wont even start on how powerful 666B(BE) buff made 4K. With this and 3A GS Tira JG game is also the best in the game.

Trust me I know tira very well, as I have a very good Tira player to play vs on a regular basis. GS tira is actually broken. And its not very difficult to control her mood as long as you know how. So she spends 80% time in GS, which is absurdly stong. If you remove JS Tira IS the best character in the game hands down. So it only comes down IF you can truly control her mood, which from my experience is possible very well via 236K(BE) and JS CE combos.
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GS 3A BE does 70 damage and gives oki. Don't know from where you got that damage. It would be a "ridiculous" punisher if it had more range. GS 666B BE does 75 damage and is only used for the kill or oki. JS was nerfed unnecessarily and hopefully will be addressed. JS 66B BE is almost non-existant since her old SC4 combos are more desirable now ex. JS 66B 4K GS 666B is about 83 damage. Also one should fear JS 4K more than GS 4K. However you are correct that JG makes Tira's punishment much better. It prevents her from being pushed out of range to actually punish. Many moves in this game are made safe due to pushback.

All this talk is familiar to me and comes when people don't know her. She does not have braindead ways to force her offense and that is fine. That is balance for the incredible damage she can deal. Tira's main weakness is range. It's been that way since SC4. The ONLY guaranteed way to get into GS is through JS CE. GS 3B was stupid before the patch and has been fixed. The nerf was deserved and being -14 is more than fine to punish a TCing launcher that leads to an easy low execution 82 minimum meterless damage combo. You have to look at a character overall. GS is not top tier. Please stop saying that. If Namco went against her design and gave her high-damage, unreadable mid-low mixups then she'd be top tier and very deserving of nerfs.
 
Zane said:
Yes they do, and it's absurd. This is SCV, not UMvC3.
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U make it seem like supers are actually GOING through moves.
I've never seen a super do that personally. Have it go through a move that was active. Its either clashed because they're active frames met. Or won, because the move was done a bit later than the ridiculously fast super.
Once again I say "from experience" because I don't play enough of this game or study it, but what u might be seeing is the move hitting on its active frame.
The startup for supers in this game happen before the super hits. Its either u stuffed it or u get hit by it. Supers in 2D fighting games have invincibility because the startup happens afterwards.
 
sephalump said:
That whole "stand together" bit is funny when a long term member of the community offered to help and you told him it "would be best to leave the discussion to actual tourney players".
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Well to be fair. There's so many lazy idiots these days who'd rather wait for everything to get nerfed in a patch than learn to deal with shit that it wouldnt have even been funny reading the thread if it was full of their BS. So it's not like Belial did it just to be evil.

I dont get what HRD is so mad about. Ccouldnt the other top Maxi players just go in the thread themselves and comment?
 
Dreamkiller said:
U make it seem like supers are actually GOING through moves.
I've never seen a super do that personally. Have it go through a move that was active. Its either clashed because they're active frames met. Or won, because the move was done a bit later than the ridiculously fast super.
Once again I say "from experience" because I don't play enough of this game or study it, but what u might be seeing is the move hitting on its active frame.
The startup for supers in this game happen before the super hits. Its either u stuffed it or u get hit by it. Supers in 2D fighting games have invincibility because the startup happens afterwards.
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The only CE with invincibility that i know of is Raphael's. And it certainly doesnt make the move any better. Like you said unlike marvel there isnt stuff constantly on the screen that could hit you. Activating a CE in SCV works in two ways. Either it comes out or it gets stuffed on the start up. CEs only look invincible because they come out as soon as the zoom in is done. Even Raphael's CE only has invincibility on the active frames, or when the zoom in is already started. I dont know a single CE that has invincibility where it actually matters and can make a difference.

Speaking of invincibility and this being a balance thread I think Raphael's B+K could use some invincibility after it successfully counters. As it is now his B+K will lose out to simple BB strings due to the fact that the vanishing animation only dodges the first attack and then he becomes vulnerable. The move will even lose out to attacks that have big long lasting hit boxes. Like Tira's 8B+K B or the flying guard break attack of Natsus. Even though they are single attacks their hit box lasts so long it will hit Raphael out of his counter. This all in addition of course to the GI frame adjustment on the attack, making it activate on i3-11. I dont know why Raphael deserves to be punished for making good reads and activating his B+K only for it to lose against multi-hitting B attacks and ones with stupid hit boxes.
 
TagYouRPregnant said:
Can I see videos of Tira winning a major for her to deserve more nerfs? Thanks.
I'll pay $20 to the next guy to win a MAJOR TOURNAMENT with JUST using TIRA.
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I second this...how many majors has a player won using only Tira post-patch? People claim that they know Tira by playing AGAINST her, not USING her. There's a big difference.

Anyone who's never used Tira and believes that she's brain-dead and OP, go to the training room with her for five minutes and then fight against GOOD players. I can pretty much guarantee that you won't be able to win consistently using her apparent "broken moves"

Learn your opponent's and their characters weaknesses, and exploit them rather than complaining that they need to be nerfed when you lose against them.
 
taffertier said:
The only CE with invincibility that i know of is Raphaels. And it certainly doesnt make the move any better.
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If you're interested in the numbers in order to have a proper assessment, its invincibility on the 10~11th frame. impacts on the 12th. So maybe 1 or 2 frames of invulnerability.

Raph buffs
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Sure its nice to have some raph buffs, but it may not go down the route of having a tira or maxi length list of 1.02 changelog , as I doubt project soul would do that. Its odd because Raphael as a character seems to be a slightly weak consistently down his movelist (lots of little buffs required), so narrowing things down was tough for me. A buff to raph's reverse mixups is better than making 44B safer imo.
 
Sorry, i know i am not in the "pro list" but i will answer with my humble opinion about some stuff said here:

@Taffertier: I disagree with your "nerf Viola will kill her" point: Viola was a good Char before this patch. After she reicived buff damage and more room for her Orb's setups, she is "better than good". As youself said: She have troubles against aPatrokos, Mitsu, etc... so, that is because the chars against she has difficulties are BETTER than her. If you want, we can talk about Raph, Z.W.E.I., Yoshi, etc... if she has a dificult time or an easy time against them... ;)


Belial, i know this is an OT, so if you think is "trash", please, delete it, you have my consent.
 
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