garjian
[12] Conqueror
Character? Gender? Situation?
I'll test it if you have more info.
How are you so certain it was Height 4? Was it your own? That's not too important.
CAS mode thread
- Thread starter UnseenWombat
- Start date
I'll test it if you have more info.
How are you so certain it was Height 4? Was it your own? That's not too important.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Let me be the first to shoot the CAS problem in the foot. Never expect things to be consistent. That means expect some whiffs and other bs. CAS imho is nothing but trouble for hitbox issues. Thus, I'm happy CAS is banned from tourney play.
Casual wise, I don't mind playing them to show-off their looks.
And no offense, I wouldn't bother testing the problem. Online lag+CAS hitbox issues= an unhappy camper.
garjian
[12] Conqueror
As proven above, all hitboxes have issues.
Don't summarise the problem by calling it "CaS hitboxes", because it isn't.
Hitboxes are entirely designated by height, and complications arise with Edgemaster, Kilik and Elysium even more than they do with CaSs. Different characters all have different hitboxes.
Don't even get me started on this apparent online lag.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Well the last I'll say to you is: do you enjoy redecorating, articulating, and asserting a point that has already been made?
Seriously. I make a "cut off the head of the snake" comment and you just redecorate it with "cut off the head of the hydra and now there's two heads" comment. If you're like this, not many peeps will listen to you.
Wandrian
I don't know.
Devil Jin 623:B is a high and can hit grounded whenever the hell it feels like hitting grounded. I think that's all the discussion on CAS hitboxes we need.
garjian
[12] Conqueror
Yes. Why? ...because you seem to disregard it, without actually giving any reason.
I'm trying to decipher what you mean here.
-"Cut off the head of the snake"- The snake being the hitboxes? How is the difference between Raphael's hitbox and Height 2 Maxi's hitbox any different to Raphael's and Tira's? Both are 2 set of different heights.
How would taking CaS out of the equation fix the differences between Raphael's and Tira's?
In SCV, the differences between hitboxes are a little more managable without CaS, but that's only because some regular characters have ridiculously small differences in heights compared to the ones available for CaS... Why does Nightmare need to be 87 instead of 85? If that weren't the case, and CaS heights were displayed clearly there wouldn't be an issue at all, as long as they were default.
Not that there is much of an issue, as hardly anything is actually affected.
-"Cut off the head of the hydra and now there's two heads"- This is where i get really confused... In what way does what I said equate to two problems where what you said is an non-fix for the one problem.
I get why CaS aren't allowed in tournaments because yeah, there's issues in hiding animations and voice prompts, and alterations in height do have some effect, but hitboxes are the least prominent by far... you don't want any small differences, and there's no need to force every contestant to know whether an iffy combo works or not because there's simply no need to use CaS in that situation.
But you're annoyed online, all the time, by just hitboxes? That's it? Just because instead of Sieg's WR B, SCH B always failing against Nightmare, its working against the Height 5 CaS? Even though there's differences within half of the regular cast anyway?
Half the time, its CaS isn't even a factor.
Take a look here:
Try it yourself.
I wrote that up months ago and looking back on it, I think height is actually the issue there. What I found testing the Siegfried combo against Nightmare was that a difference of 2 in height changes the combo entirely, but it works just the same on Viola who has a difference of 24. Kilik wont be exactly Height 3 (Let's estimate Height 3 to be 60, Kilik may be 62) and that's what will be causing the discrepancy there.
Either way, that's a hitbox issue, and CaS, has shit-all to do with it... It's all down to a number that differs between every member of the cast, and to be honest, there are less CaS heights than there are characters so...
I-I just...
I can't understand why you'd be annoyed by specifically CaS hitboxes, and not be annoyed about the fact that hitboxes are inconsistent throughout the entire cast.
Given that, how can you be annoyed by hitboxes at all, when you should be expecting them to vary?
I don't know how many more ways I can say that CaS hitboxes are just like everybody else's hitboxes.
But people keep complaining about it, and it's not even a thing!
How can you actually find anything to complain about? Unless you're just actively ignoring the fact that just because something whiff against a CaS doesn't mean it wouldn't have whiff on the regular character anyway, and certainly doesn't mean that it wouldn't whiff against almost half the rest of the cast.
This needs to be known because I'm not explaining it to every bloody person who has this issue with CaS.
Height 1 is 6E
Height 2 is 73
Height 3 is 78
Height 4 is 81
Height 5 is 85
Most regular characters are these exact heights as well.
Challenge Accepted :P
So far, it appears that the hitbox extends to your foot.
If the left foot doesn't make contact, it misses...
Its not working on any default height Patroklos, CaS or not...
Only works on Edgemaster Voldo and Voldo at long range.
Not working on Edgemaster Oprah at extremely short range. Not working on Oprah herself or my Male-Height 2-Oprah CaS at all.
It always works against Female-Height 4-Hilde CaS, Hilde herself... Edgemaster as Astaroth and ZWEI, and Astaroth and ZWEI themselves.
(This is to the front of course... and face up. Ill perhaps test face down another time? I don't think I'll be delving quite as deep here.)
So far, CaS seems, yet again, to have nothing to do with it.
Female-Height 3-Patroklos CaS and Patroklos - same
Female-Height 4-Hilde CaS and Hilde - same
Male-Height 2-Oprah CaS and Oprah - same
Edgemaster Astaroth, Male-Astaroth Height-Astaroth and Astaroth - same
Edgemaster Voldo and Voldo - same
Edgemaster ZWEI and ZWEI - same
The only thing that seems to have much of an affect is the actual style, although Edgemaster Oprah had different results.
That seems to be the only odd result so far. But even that can only be put down to height, as a CaS at her default height worked exactly the same.
236:B ground hit seems to vary almost entirely with Style, varying in what ranges it works at and whether it works at all. I'll test it further in the future, but it appears that even height has little to do with this one, yet alone CaS status itself.
I might point out exactly what a CaS and what a Regular Character is. Having reconstructed Nightmare over my Ivy CaS piece by piece (which isn't what you might expect) ...I can tell you that all characters are CaS at root, just with the default CaS character model made invisible.
But I'm sure that aesthetic process changes the hitboxes entirely as well, right?
Solo
[14] Master
^Why do you care so much?
garjian
[12] Conqueror
A dangerous blend of being unemployed (with seemingly no good way out), liking Soulcalibur, and having about 10 people a month tell me my Viola isn't legitimate because it's
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
garjian is an adamant idiot for not getting the big picture. I disregard CAS hitbox issues and all because it's a can of worms. It doesn't need anymore elaboration than this: The height, whiffing, and hitbox issues are too much to worry about. Devil Jin CAS, Viola height 5, etc.
Why I think he's an idiot...
In conclusion....
Why I think he's an idiot...
To even shed a care towards CAS goes to show you're just desperate to get people to listen you if your opinion on JG wasn't enough for you. Why listen to someone who doesn't even realize the logic is flawed or at least find a meeting point?
Therefore, this whole ordeal being about him being right with the proof we don't care about is a waste. He can try to twist the words to his liking and regurgitate it, but all he is doing is coming off as a "Nuh-uh" guy.
What I want to hear is where does it help the community? How will you put it altogether and more stuff? Spouting a bunch of articulate nonsense literally makes me want shoot the fool in the foot for not being practical.
Therefore, this whole ordeal being about him being right with the proof we don't care about is a waste. He can try to twist the words to his liking and regurgitate it, but all he is doing is coming off as a "Nuh-uh" guy.
What I want to hear is where does it help the community? How will you put it altogether and more stuff? Spouting a bunch of articulate nonsense literally makes me want shoot the fool in the foot for not being practical.
In conclusion....
So tell me, why the fuck shouldn't I disregard something not relevant to gameplay when the tourney peeps came to an agreement and banned CAS?
Desperate and stupid to not realize where he's going. If he's this desperate to be right or so, why don't he start by persuading me by doing a MU thread about all Height 1 cast, height 2 cast, and so on?
He wanted an elaboration, and this is all he'll get. I already know he's gonna get anal about only to irritate me, so I'm stopping this stupid argument. If he wants to continue, I suggest he invites the peeps who actually give a shit about what he said to a PM. I rather not be a part of it though, my brain cells will be gone if I listen anymore to this
Funny you should mention that I was considering siding with his JG opinion until LP posted something that made sense and answered more than my question. That what I like, info that makes sense and puts me at ease. Not it's right because it is with a bunch of nonsense dressed up as facts...
Desperate and stupid to not realize where he's going. If he's this desperate to be right or so, why don't he start by persuading me by doing a MU thread about all Height 1 cast, height 2 cast, and so on?
He wanted an elaboration, and this is all he'll get. I already know he's gonna get anal about only to irritate me, so I'm stopping this stupid argument. If he wants to continue, I suggest he invites the peeps who actually give a shit about what he said to a PM. I rather not be a part of it though, my brain cells will be gone if I listen anymore to this
Funny you should mention that I was considering siding with his JG opinion until LP posted something that made sense and answered more than my question. That what I like, info that makes sense and puts me at ease. Not it's right because it is with a bunch of nonsense dressed up as facts...
Ramus
[14] Master
Why not?
If one person wants to do that kind of research about the game, let it be something good might come out of this.
If one person wants to do that kind of research about the game, let it be something good might come out of this.
Solo
[14] Master
Why not use normal Viola then? Or a recolor? The only people I've ever seen complain about the issue on the side you're taking are people that like the style of a character but strongly dislike the character's personality or looks. I used to be the same way in a sense. I would just use a recolor in your circumstances. The hit boxes also change when you change the proportions of your CaS. It's obvious the Viola CaS with +20 tits is going to have a different hitbox than standard Viola. Those hitboxes will never be the same unless you could find some odd way of finding out the standard cast's body slider values the making your CaS match them. I wouldn't waste the time though, I would just use a recolor.
No matter what the results would be it wouldn't be productive. No one uses CaS at higher levels (Not saying I'm that "higher level"), not even edits of characters. Only recolors. What's the point in researching it when it's completely pointless.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
No it won't. Trust me, you don't need to know anyone's height except the original cast of SCV. That means Mitsu, Viola, Cervy, Leixia, Ivy, etc. CAS? Yeah, now you're opening up a can of worms.
At best, this info could cater to well casual games. Because not many people can tell at first glance with stuff like: Is this CAS height 4? 5? Too much stress here. I say just fight it and improvise since CAS will never see the light of day in tourneys. Online and casuals I'll just shrug it off.
Now I know we should consider everyone's opinion, but when it's wrong and it doesn't help the community, it's rather pointless.
Ramus
[14] Master
I actually...don't have how to respond to this.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Do not feel discouraged to say what's on your mind. I am not shooting down your logic because I'm trying to put you down. I'm trying to help you because misinformation is not good for your mind. It distracts the simple goal of getting good at something. CAS itself is nice for dress-ups sadly.
Trying to put CAS and hardcore gameplay together is like taking a nintendo cartridge and inserting it into a PS3. If the CAS had no hitbox issues and so on, I wouldn't disregard it altogether so quickly.
Ramus
[14] Master
Hahaha, no Yoshi don't worry I was only out of any argument really.
garjian
[12] Conqueror
I agree, and I did so before you actually came into this, and again in response to your... first post? yes... here:
and here:
...but why would issues that are part of what you don't disregard effect your online experience? You should already know how complex hitbox issues are, why would you pin it all on CaS?
Do you get angry when people use Elysium, Kilik and Edgemaster too?
It's not a competition you know? My opinions and arguments regarding the JG system have nothing to do with this. At all.
I researched this for my own benefit, and I've no reason to not share it seeing as the topic emerged.
And did you read my response to that?
If it's the long post that goes into detail about Astaroth's attacks towards the end, not only will you find I've rejected most of that, you'll find I also did so before he posted it. (But it may be in the SC:CE Wishlist thread.)
Also, I'd like to know exactly how this data:
...is not factual.
Except this can't exist.
It simply doesn't effect gameplay quite as much as you'd like to think it does.
I'd be quite happy to look at any combos you think are broken by varying heights, and I'll post my findings just as I did here... but I'm sure you'll have a problem with that, right? After all, I'm just bending the fabric of reality to create these results aren't I?
I think you'll find you're just as guilty of being a "Nuh-uh guy". You seem intent on disagreeing with me, and you won't even talk about my findings.
I'm happy for you to explain to me how variances in hitboxes are the fault of CaS alone, and why I should be looked down upon for using a CaS that is, again, exactly the same as Viola.
So you're saying I shouldn't use the CaS I've grown attached to, and spent a lot of time making, in any online situation at all? Despite the fact that it again, the same hitbox as Viola, I should just cut that out completely just because some people have unfounded claims about hitbox issues that dont even apply to her?
I guess you mean a tournament situation and as I've pretty much already said, I wouldn't use a CaS in a tournament situation because the need to use one is aesthetic alone, it's for fun, and it's an unnecessary task for people to prove exactly what height their character is, and whether that's default or not, etc. ...as well as, again, voice prompts and hiding attacks.
No-one should even be allowed recolours in online tournaments, as I said earlier, because anybody with any knowledge of modding can mod that recolour and change various things, height being one of them. And this data does show that even unnoticeable changes in height can alter certain combos.
And i would assume nobody has the time, or reason, to make even recolours in offline tournaments.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Speaking of Yoshi, I really miss that Yoshi squid head DLC from SCIV. What I'd give to put that on my Yoshi again.
I was also hoping to see more weapons in CAS as DLC. I miss some old stuff like Hihiirokane(Yoshi's legendary weapon), Scarlet Thunder(Seong Mi-na's weapon as Xiba DLC), and so on.
I also want Raphael, Hilde, Yoshi, Mitsu stuff to be released as DLC. Why you forsake us PS? I is pouting....
Wandrian
I don't know.
I miss the wider variety of weapon choices as well. I loved how it II(or was it III?) everyone could wield Soul Edge and Soul Calibur. Aw, and Nightmares version of Soul Calibur in SCII! Now that was a stylish weapon. The zweihander versions of it in III and IV look...stupid in comparison :(
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
That meaty sword in SCII was rather creepy.....but it'd make for some good blade for a zombie warrior haha.
While the SC2 Soul Calibur zweihander was just awesome. In fact, I think I want a Soul Calibur and Soul Edge DLC for all characters now. Dammit, why you make me feel so fanboyish?
Ramus
[14] Master
Just give me everyone 2P in Soul Calibur IV cuz they did rock.
I remember a mood of Amy Night Butterfly Dress.
I remember a mood of Amy Night Butterfly Dress.